For those complaining about the development time of DayZ

[Sqeezorz 839]

Comparing Dayz Engine with PUGB is wrong.

Most FPS engines process "only" inputs from players and coordinate collision queries and process those values.

The DayZ-engine has far more than these requirements to meet. It's like a flight simulator, with many visible and unrecognizable influences being used to simulate an "apocalypse".

That's what makes everything much more complicated than anything we try to compare with DayZ.

m2cents.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

5 hours ago, Grimey Rick said:

I just don't understand why you're singling out my posts when, unlike the OP, I've actually contributed to his thread.

I wasn't singling you you out. I always speak in general terms unless I specifically mention a user. Guy Smiley did the exact same thing (and he did it first, which doesn't excuse anyone else from doing it), and I'm addressing everybody -- even those who have yet to do the same. This is me stepping in before the posts escalate further, I don't care in the least what your opinions are regarding the game as long as everything else checks out.

If you (Rick) still have issues with that, send me a PM. But anyone can go back to read the P.S. in my first post in this thread and realize I don't agree with OP.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[Guy Smiley 534]

Let me be perfectly clear.  This thread is about development time and not early access, absolutely nothing.  I don't care if it's early access alpha, regular alpha, or not even a released game.  This thread was to point out basic facts that game companies don't shit out games on a daily basis.  Companies that re-hash their same old generic games every year, BF, CoD, NHL, NFL, NBA are using pre-existing assets with a few tweaks here and there.  Other companies buy the licenses to game engines such as Unreal, Cryengine, Frostbite and Unity which makes it easier to develop with.  Other companies who design their games from the ground up usual take multiple years to create.  I will reiterate  that DayZ is on par for standard game development.

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

8 hours ago, Sqeezorz said:

Comparing Dayz Engine with PUGB is wrong.

I wasn't comparing the 2 engines I just pointed out that one is a prefabricated engine and the other is being made from scratch, that's all.

Also, you said PuG-B.

:D

Edited November 1, 2017 by ☣BioHaze☣

[sneakydude 480]

On 10/30/2017 at 7:46 PM, Guy Smiley said:

WARNING: THIS GAME IS EARLY ACCESS ALPHA. PLEASE DO NOT PURCHASE IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO ACTIVELY SUPPORT DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME AND ARE PREPARED TO HANDLE WITH SERIOUS ISSUES AND POSSIBLE INTERRUPTIONS OF GAME 

 

The only stupid people are the ones who don't know how to read

I wouldn't really call them stupid, more impatient, and want to jump in and see what all the excitement is. In fact we are all stupid? all the ones that did read and still clicked in. We where just not all ready for the really slow progression updates and rewrite of the engine. It could be worse, it could have been canceled like the other games going around steam in EA.

[sneakydude 480]

10 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Let me be perfectly clear.  This thread is about development time and not early access, absolutely nothing.  I don't care if it's early access alpha, regular alpha, or not even a released game.  This thread was to point out basic facts that game companies don't shit out games on a daily basis.  Companies that re-hash their same old generic games every year, BF, CoD, NHL, NFL, NBA are using pre-existing assets with a few tweaks here and there.  Other companies buy the licenses to game engines such as Unreal, Cryengine, Frostbite and Unity which makes it easier to develop with.  Other companies who design their games from the ground up usual take multiple years to create.  I will reiterate  that DayZ is on par for standard game development.

I can not argue that statement at all. BI makes their own games. Maybe they may test a unity version out someday or unreal for reasons of RPG style game play but in the mean time we all clearly know they write their own code.

[Sqeezorz 839]

3 hours ago, ☣BioHaze☣ said:

I wasn't comparing the 2 engines I just pointed out that one is a prefabricated engine and the other is being made from scratch, that's all.

Also, you said PuG-B.

:D

sry. that does not apply to you. It is generally understood why it takes longer than something is done "with license engines". DayZ is something of a "research department" to me (that's what makes it interesting)

[Girth Brooks 570]

Maybe some of the older guys here will remember this, but back when Nintendo Power Magazine was a thing they would hint at games that literally came out two or three years later. Releases for the Super Nintendo and the N64 were regularly delayed sometimes for year if not more. Every game system has faced delays this way including PC because things go wrong. Things change. I remember they're being chips shortages for cartridge games at one point.

There they are building things from the ground up, it takes a long time and it's very complicated, not to mention this is a fairly new game type in the grand scheme of things. 

Lastly, I am a freelance camera operator and I shoot live sports. I have work on espn.com for any college sport you can think of. My name is permanently tied for life to that work. As long as ESPN has website my work will be there in perpetuity. Now I'm damn well sure that I am going to do the best job possible because I want to keep working in this industry and for people to know that I do a fantastic job EVERY time I show up at a venue ready to work. My reputation is on the line every time I go to work. These guys that are doing such a great job on this game, are basically in the same boat as I am. Their names will be forever tied to a game that is either going to fail or be phenomenal. I'm pretty sure that they're going to do everything they can to make sure it's phenomenal. These are young people that care about their career and want to keep doing this instead of working some crap job for some jerk. 

/endoldmanrant /getoffmylawn

[[Gen]Adzic 241]

I wanna know who at the start of this epic journey said it was gonna take 5 years+ just to get to a stable base game? who even thought that was a possibility when they bought the game all that time ago? yeah we knew it was gonna a WIP, we listened to Dean, afterall we read and have been clicking his disclaimer. This dev time cycle, the whole thing pisses me off personally and I'm sorry if that offends anyone.. do you think a gamer who sits by his PC night in... night out... after a hard days graft, wants to play a buggy, broken game? you think he cares about how long "things" take? he just wants to play the damn game and enjoy it. You think he likes to hear or even see a status report? maybe he'll see all this waiting as nothing but an excuse to sell more copies and rinse anyone who falls into the same trap. I'm pretty sure he see's things differently than a 4000+ posting, forum dwelling, DayZ fan who gets all hard over pictures of bicycles and helicopters they both haven't and probably wont be using for years, presented like they are game ready, on animated gifs.

Dean said don't buy DayZ, I distinctly remember him posting that a long time ago, of course I didn't listen to Dean.. No, Dean was a wise man, so wise, he even got out, his wait is over.

Ours however.............

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by [Gen]Adzic
added a full stop.

[Guy Smiley 534]

9 minutes ago, [Gen]Adzic said:

I wanna know who at the start of this epic journey said it was gonna take 5 years+ just to get to a stable base game? who even thought that was a possibility when they bought the game all that time ago? yeah we knew it was gonna a WIP, we listened to Dean, afterall we read and have been clicking his disclaimer. This dev time cycle, the whole thing pisses me off personally and I'm sorry if that offends anyone.. do you think a gamer who sits by his PC night in... night out... after a hard days graft, wants to play a buggy, broken game? you think he cares about how long "things" take? he just wants to play the damn game and enjoy it. You think he likes to hear or even see a status report? maybe he'll see all this waiting as nothing but an excuse to sell more copies and rinse anyone who falls into the same trap. I'm pretty sure he see's things differently than a 4000+ posting, forum dwelling, DayZ fan who gets all hard over pictures of bicycles and helicopters they both haven't and probably wont be using for years, presented like they are game ready, on animated gifs.

Dean said don't buy DayZ, I distinctly remember him posting that a long time ago, of course I didn't listen to Dean.. No, Dean was a wise man, so wise, he even got out, his wait is over.

Ours however.............

 

What's the difference between getting to see the growth of the game they are working on(early access) or just reading about the game they are working on(not an early access)?  Absolutely nothing.  Would you guys still be complaining if DayZ never entered early access at all?

[[Gen]Adzic 241]

4 minutes ago, Guy Smiley said:

Would you guys still be complaining if DayZ never entered early access at all?

Why would anyone complain? when you take away the reasoning behind the complaints? That's like me asking you guys if you'd still be happy if you never got to see the game grow. 

[libertine 351]

As far as animation goes, i do have experience with it, have my own demo reel for it. Most of the animations so far in the game ive seen were there from the beginning of alpha 4 years ago. Only hand/arm animations have been added afaik. All these animations take much longer than a week, but not this long. I definitely don't think this is the normal pace of AAA video game dev for an average size team. I think something happened along the way or the team is simply smaller than average. 4 years in and they haven't fixed the goofy ladder animation and behavior. .63 will give us a lot more information to go on.

[BeefBacon 1185]

1 hour ago, libertine said:

As far as animation goes, i do have experience with it, have my own demo reel for it. Most of the animations so far in the game ive seen were there from the beginning of alpha 4 years ago. Only hand/arm animations have been added afaik. All these animations take much longer than a week, but not this long. I definitely don't think this is the normal pace of AAA video game dev for an average size team. I think something happened along the way or the team is simply smaller than average. 4 years in and they haven't fixed the goofy ladder animation and behavior. .63 will give us a lot more information to go on.

As I understand it, animations, 3D models, textures and so on aren't the bottleneck. I mean, look at the DayZ trello. There's a ton of content there. They've got all the models and the animations more or less good to go, they're just waiting for the programming side of things. Putting together a whole new engine can't be easy. They can't move forward with X until Y is complete, but Y is dependent on Z. This is why 0.63 represents such a huge milestone. It'll be the bulk of the engine work finally complete. So much is reliant on the new player controller, but now it's almost done. Post 0.63 should yield more frequent updates, rather than, like, one or two a year. The updates will also be more substantive in regards to gameplay. Consider that basically everything in-game currently, from the movement, to the combat, to the disease system, are all effectively placeholders. With the engine bottleneck finally out of the way, the devs can start actually making a game. Something I'm sure they're looking forward to. I certainly am.

0.63 is also a huge deal for DayZ because of how it's been built up. If 0.63 has a shaky release, that might shake the confidence of the fanbase, and of prospective players. if it has a good release, it has the potential to put DayZ back on top and restore faith in the evil scammer devs. I expect that the devs are well aware of this, and probably want to incubate 0.63 for as long as possible before even so much as releasing it to experimental. Then again, they've expressed a desire to release 0.63 as soon as possible, so I probably have no damn idea what I'm talking about.

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

1 hour ago, libertine said:

Most of the animations so far in the game ive seen were there from the beginning of alpha 4 years ago

They just finished one of a few guns that will be ready for .63, the fnx, that was 30 different anims just for the one gun.

If I'm not mistaken, they also announced more mo cap sessions as well, and they have a lot left for vehicle interactions and actions in different poses.

I also believe that the interactive depth for the character is intrinsically more complicated because of all the different factors working on many unusual mechanics tied to them. Bringing together all of these elements far exceeds the average demand for characters in a game.

Just the animations for crawling out of an overturned vehicle (on trello) are above and beyond the standard expectations of most gamers.

[Yuval 221]

On 10/25/2017 at 11:46 PM, Guy Smiley said:

What we've got from DayZ's early access is seeing the creation of the game at it's basic level and actually getting to see it develop and change as the game gets created.

Which made almost all the original fans of DayZ abandon it and go elsewhere... great.

[DannyDog 532]

20 minutes ago, Yuval said:

Which made almost all the original fans of DayZ abandon it and go elsewhere... great.

I'm still here :P

[IMT 3190]

On 10/31/2017 at 4:06 PM, Grimey Rick said:

Just because there have been instances where games have taken ridiculously long periods of time to develop and release does not mean DayZ is "right on track". I provided a larger list of games that have released much, much, faster than the time DayZ has been in development.

Absolutely great source indeed. Hey, what is that? ArmA 3 is in that list as well... March 5, 2013 to April 23, 2013. Huh, 1 and an half month to develop an entire game, incredible!

Does the list take in account at which stage the game went in Early Access? No, it doesn't. So this wouldn't be the best source to compare development time with either.

14 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

What's the difference between getting to see the growth of the game they are working on(early access) or just reading about the game they are working on(not an early access)?  Absolutely nothing.  Would you guys still be complaining if DayZ never entered early access at all?

Who says that you need to buy an Early Access game in order to follow its development? You can do that perfectly without buying the game.

[Guy Smiley 534]

10 hours ago, IMT said:

Who says that you need to buy an Early Access game in order to follow its development? You can do that perfectly without buying the game.

That's what I am saying lol

[exacomvm 101]

Plot Twist:
Arma 3: 2011 - 2013 ( 2 years )
Kingdom Come: Deliverance: 2011-*2018* ( 7years made by very small studio, retired Bohemia employees )
DayZ SA: 2012 - 20?? ( 5 years and counting, ironically it was barely different 3 years ago ).

Edited November 2, 2017 by exacomvm

[Guy Smiley 534]

18 minutes ago, exacomvm said:

DayZ SA: 2012 - 20?? ( 5 years and counting, ironically it was barely different 3 years ago ).

5 years eh?  

 

RELEASE DATE:

16 Dec, 2013

 

Learn to math

[Grimey Rick 3417]

16 hours ago, IMT said:

Absolutely great source indeed. Hey, what is that? ArmA 3 is in that list as well... March 5, 2013 to April 23, 2013. Huh, 1 and an half month to develop an entire game, incredible!

Does the list take in account at which stage the game went in Early Access? No, it doesn't. So this wouldn't be the best source to compare development time with either.

No, the list shows when games went into Early Access and when they were released. Arma 3 didn't have an Early Access until most of it was done, so it's an exception to the list. DayZ went into Early Access with a functional, base game ready to play – arguably the most fun version to date. It's not like they began work on the game as soon as it released on Steam. Not all games take forever to develop; OP's list was cherry-picked to prove a "point" that DayZ is "right on schedule". It'll finish when it finishes, however, it's not following Dean Hall's initial estimate. I can't find a link, but I remember him thinking it'd be ready around Christmas 2015.

Verdun, as another example, is one I partook in and had a blast in so doing. They did everything right IMHO.

Quote

Verdun is a squad-based multiplayer first-person shooter video game set during World War I. It was released on 28 April 2015 on Steam, after more than a year in Steam Early Access.¹

 

[Kohlbar 270]

Sometimes it feels like DayZ just proves that Early Access as a concept is a bad idea, if a game needs a huge amount of time to release things, can an audience really be expected to play a semi-functional version of the game with no new content and not get frustrated? I would love to see a list of all the EA games that have broken their initial release dates. I'm guessing it's in the high 90% range.

[DannyDog 532]

15 minutes ago, Kohlbar said:

Sometimes it feels like DayZ just proves that Early Access as a concept is a bad idea, if a game needs a huge amount of time to release things, can an audience really be expected to play a semi-functional version of the game with no new content and not get frustrated? I would love to see a list of all the EA games that have broken their initial release dates. I'm guessing it's in the high 90% range.

I reckon it's just the fact that they decided to change the scope of the game after realizing DayZ can become their new flagship and didn't want to just make it a polished version of the mod using the old RV3 engine. Not to mention they have been plagued with so many limitations of their RV3 engine that even on arma 3 they couldn't implement something as simple as dynamic shadows. I mean just look at this:

They were so limited by the resources they had, you can only imagine their faces with the success of dayz sa. Arma 4 is going to be one heck of a game when its developed on using Enfusion. (IF it ever gets developed xd)

So whilst it was a bad choice for them to release the game into early access, it did however give them a huge opportunity to grow as a game company and now we'll be able to get bigger and better products from them.

[green_mtn_grandbob 594]

just stop beating the dead horse, (dayz up to now) The team said they had made mistakes, so we and they can only move on from here and now.

[pilgrim* 3514]

On 10/31/2017 at 3:03 AM, Guy Smiley said:

 it told you not to "buy" it unless you want to actively support it's development.  Plain and fucking simple. 

OK - let's "actively support" - lets all send in MORE MONEY.. another $30 to go on playing...  ??

Look - The BOTTOM LINE - A games company has staff and electricity bills, and it has to have PCs, desks, & servers, and it has to pay window cleaners (and other stuff) printer paper, technicians, directors, artists .. .. ya know?  You have to have MONEY COMING IN all the time JUST to keep going, NOT to make a profit, JUST to break even on your forever-daily wage bill and expenses. OK?

So where is the DayZ SA money coming from -  from it's sales? 

So here is a PRACTICAL (it works)  BI model of "how to stay running as a company" __  You SELL a game AND you develop it until it is built enough for the MODERS to take over
Then you have very little expense anymore, you don't have to develop it much past the Mod Release, so you can put most of your team on something else, the next game. 
BUT the moders will come out with MODS !! - and to play whatever THEY build,  the punters will have to BUY THE GAME .. So your company keeps on selling the game, every time an interesting mode starts to trend your company sells more copies of the basic game. EVEN if NO ONE plays the basic game.. 

Anyone remember a minority game called ArmA ?? 
It was just about played out and MOST gamers had never heard much about it at all, and wouldn't have paid to play it even if they knew it existed - But then an INTERESTING MOD turned up and news went around - You just had to buy this obscure "ArmA" game to be able to install the MOD... so suddenly ArmA was a best seller !! - wow.. it went right UP the charts.

Aint that a good way to Pay The Bills and keep your business going? 

AND in this "business model"  it does NOT MATTER if you reach RELEASE or whatever you call RELEASE..because no one will even be playing "the base game" 
It just matters that it has enough STUFF in it to catch the interest of the MODDERS... then you can go on selling it for as long as interesting mods turn up
.. the money comes in.. even if NO ONE plays the damn, "original" DayZ release EVER.
They have to buy it to play any mod that is trending. They may NEVER play DayZ - I played ArmA for about 5 hours total - maybe less - I played DayZ the Mod for about 2000+ hours.

just saying

To run a company you have staff and expenses to pay ALL THE TIME  - you have to break even - to do that you have to have money coming in.
So what would YOU do with DayZ right now if it was your business?

real question - any suggestions?

( wow hey a player gave me a HEART right here on the forum - I never had a HEART before.. that's so CUTE!!!  - thanx dude  = BEANZ for that Heart!  )