For those complaining about the development time of DayZ

[Guy Smiley 534]

3 minutes ago, Solopopo said:

I think it's pretty clear from the context that I am talking about early access alphas. 

 

Early access alphas just shouldn't exist. The idea is not innovative, it's just an excuse to get paid early for something unfinished. The whole idea doesn't make sense, and goes against basic economics. If developers get paid before their product is done, they are not going to be incentivized to continue their work. We should not be embracing the idea of early access, and DayZ is in fact a perfect example of why that's true. 

Instead, companies sell you a game on pre-order for $60-$80 plus another $60 season pass which means you're paying for a game that you don't even get to play for up to a month lol.  Or companies release a game which they call "full version" for $60-$80 and their a buggy mess beta.  So, yes the bitching and moaning is extremely childish and unwarranted when you have zero knowledge of game development.  So the fact that this "project" has been on going for almost 4 years and is in the process of going into beta soon shows that they are right on track with normal development times.

[klesh 2423]

Yup, gamers have zero patience these days. /getoffmylawn.

[Mantasisg 172]

Gamers also get less games nowadays and more "tech previews", "cinematic experiences"..... True games are in the past.

[pilgrim* 3514]

12 hours ago, Solopopo said:

Early access alphas just shouldn't exist. The idea is not innovative, it's just an excuse to get paid early for something unfinished. The whole idea doesn't make sense, and goes against basic economics. If developers get paid before their product is done, they are not going to be incentivized to continue their work. We should not be embracing the idea of early access, and DayZ is in fact a perfect example of why that's true. 

There was already a DayZ game going around, a Mod that attracted a lot of fairly smart people (mod players) - BI wanted to continue the momentum. DayZ Mod was falling apart at the seams (hacks etc) and was way too complex to try to fix, and it was a Mod (after all) more than an in-house product. BI didn't want to take the DayZ experience off the market for a couple of years - when they came back the competition would already be around with crud imitations

Also they relied on the unusual quality of their players (who were NOT "average players"  to help them through the SA launch - those were almost 100% the same players who were with the mod, those players moved straight from the Mod to the SA.. It seemed reasonable to bring that community along from the broken Mod to the new half made up-and-running SA and continue straight on from there.

I guess BI didn't expect the Steam treatment, they definitely didn't expect the treatment they got from the SPs (we KNOW that) and didn't expect to becoime "just one game" on a list of a few hundred that new games players pick over on a one-a-week basis, slag off, collect, throw away, diss.. And they did NOT do the "big game big publicity" hype that is now expected in the game market. (You spend 30-50% of your 'development budget' on advertising in this mass market, or you get no mass buyers)  They did not pull new players into this new "anti-game" experience that DELIBERATELY  should NOT be like the 500 others your statistical average players might buy around the world this week. 

So it is obvious why they wanted to go straight from the unfixable Mod to the early access SA without a break - they REALLY didn't have a choice -  and its obvious what went wrong with the process.   What is funny is how people take these words, "alpha", "beta", "pay to play", "DLC", and "full release", "early access", "first day DLC", "upgrade" "add-ons" "payable" , GamexI, GamexIII, GamexVII "buy Gamex II New World DLC".. etc.. Players take these words as normal steps through a game as though the "word" is MORE important than the game content and the cost and the content turnover and what action it it is supposed to describe and support and free updates. - (those words mainly describe how much you pay and how fast you pay it)

BUT - There WILL NOT be a big change when SA is "released" as a full game, and BI WILL  go on developing it free of charge after release. Look at their track record. This is how they have always worked. They are a SMALL company. & They are honest.  & They are not good at sales communication.  

And of course MEANWHILE the big companies that push mega-publicity and milk their "big" games for all they are worth, just throw away those games after only a couple of years (max) and come out with "Game II & DLCs" . Those main league companies don't WANT you to play for more than a year or so without BUYING the next version and buying the upgrades and then BUYING the next version again, every 8 months you pay for something.

Would everyone be happy if we called <SA Final Release> tomorrow, then dropped DayZ  and released a game called  <DayZ II Early Access> by next year. With DLCs every couple of months ? -  With the right publicity that would make  BI double the cash, a steady cash flow, SELL it  and milk the whole new generation of "normal" mass market kid players. And DONT ever try to be original, it's expensive. Compete with the stuff that is already there and make it look flash.

Easy pay easy play. Next year play some more pay some more.

(no insult to "normal players" - whoever is the majority always has to be the norm, right? - that's science for ya)   

xxP

Edited October 30, 2017 by pilgrim*
~ wanted to waste some time

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

14 hours ago, Solopopo said:

I think it's pretty clear from the context that I am talking about early access alphas. 

 

Early access alphas just shouldn't exist. The idea is not innovative, it's just an excuse to get paid early for something unfinished. The whole idea doesn't make sense, and goes against basic economics. If developers get paid before their product is done, they are not going to be incentivized to continue their work. We should not be embracing the idea of early access, and DayZ is in fact a perfect example of why that's true. 

Whether you think public alpha is a sound concept or not has very little to do with the text you quoted.

I was pointing out the fact that originators often suffer more pitfalls.

Early Access seems to be proving itself a raw deal for most consumers and I have only supported 1 or 2 other projects.

Considering the apparent enjoyment that the DayZ player base has had from this broken limping Frankencoded alpha in its current state I would say this negates the drawbacks alpha brought and it was merely the testers who did not have the resolve to participate wholly. 

Many have since melted down and left in a huff declaring DayZ forever shit and then they can tell stories about how they were involved when it was still good and how it will never be done and the devs are thieves and we're just suckers and fanboys.

Then fucking 1.0 comes out and they see a video and pee themselves a little and they'll want to return with pride like they were here from the start and "love" DayZ.

What bullshit.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

20 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Instead, companies sell you a game on pre-order for $60-$80 plus another $60 season pass which means you're paying for a game that you don't even get to play for up to a month lol.  Or companies release a game which they call "full version" for $60-$80 and their a buggy mess beta.  So, yes the bitching and moaning is extremely childish and unwarranted when you have zero knowledge of game development.  So the fact that this "project" has been on going for almost 4 years and is in the process of going into beta soon shows that they are right on track with normal development times.

Are you a game developer? You seem to throw around a lot of "knowledge" of the industry that seemingly comes from thin air. The fact that developers are cashing in on paid DLCs, Season Passes, and micro-transactions has nothing to do with what this Solopopo guy is talking about.

Early Access games aren't the answer to the aforementioned. Developers are cashing in on our stupidity pertaining to both pre-ordering games, and releasing games before they're finished – neither benefits the consumer – we get gypped in either scenario.

[Guy Smiley 534]

2 minutes ago, Grimey Rick said:

Are you a game developer? You seem to throw around a lot of "knowledge" of the industry that seemingly comes from thin air. The fact that developers are cashing in on paid DLCs, Season Passes, and micro-transactions has nothing to do with what this Solopopo guy is talking about.

Early Access games aren't the answer to the aforementioned. Developers are cashing in on our stupidity pertaining to both pre-ordering games, and releasing games before they're finished – neither benefits the consumer – we get gypped in either scenario.

WARNING: THIS GAME IS EARLY ACCESS ALPHA. PLEASE DO NOT PURCHASE IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO ACTIVELY SUPPORT DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME AND ARE PREPARED TO HANDLE WITH SERIOUS ISSUES AND POSSIBLE INTERRUPTIONS OF GAME 

 

The only stupid people are the ones who don't know how to read

Edited October 30, 2017 by Guy Smiley

[Grimey Rick 3417]

42 minutes ago, Guy Smiley said:

WARNING: THIS GAME IS EARLY ACCESS ALPHA. PLEASE DO NOT PURCHASE IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO ACTIVELY SUPPORT DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME AND ARE PREPARED TO HANDLE WITH SERIOUS ISSUES AND POSSIBLE INTERRUPTIONS OF GAME 

 

The only stupid people are the ones who don't know how to read

Congratulations on completely dodging my question and statement by changing the topic.

I'm fully aware the game is in early access – that isn't up for debate. I'm addressing the fact that neither early access nor pre-ordering benefits the consumer.

As far as early access goes, I've logged 1,601 hours in DayZ Standalone, and that was in the first year. I've got almost double that between my two Steam accounts in the Mod. I've played a little here and there every patch or two to see what's up. Barely anything changed for the longest time, so I dropped it entirely in pursuit of other games. In my time here, I've contributed countless bug reports, threads containing valuable/pertinent information (as well as my fair share of shitposts ♥), glitches, item/weapon testing, et cetera. So as far as that is concerned, I'm more than likely much better versed in what DayZ is trying to achieve than you are. All I've seen of you so far is blind fanboyism in every thread you participate in, posting nonsensical information without basis (like claiming to know exactly what game development entails), copy/pasting forum rules, and just general pointlessness.

Anyway, I've developed a little bit of a reputation for only posting silly things, mostly because for the past two years I've been bitter as fuck with the seemingly nonexistent progress this game has made, but at the end of the day as pilgrim* so eloquently pointed out, I've gotten thousands of hours of entertainment (even though a lot of it has been frustrating as hell and bug-riddled) from the DayZ Standalone and Mod, so I guess I really can't complain as a whole. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Guy Smiley 534]

1 hour ago, Grimey Rick said:

Congratulations on completely dodging my question and statement by changing the topic.

I'm fully aware the game is in early access – that isn't up for debate. I'm addressing the fact that neither early access nor pre-ordering benefits the consumer.

As far as early access goes, I've logged 1,601 hours in DayZ Standalone, and that was in the first year. I've got almost double that between my two Steam accounts in the Mod. I've played a little here and there every patch or two to see what's up. Barely anything changed for the longest time, so I dropped it entirely in pursuit of other games. In my time here, I've contributed countless bug reports, threads containing valuable/pertinent information (as well as my fair share of shitposts ♥), glitches, item/weapon testing, et cetera. So as far as that is concerned, I'm more than likely much better versed in what DayZ is trying to achieve than you are. All I've seen of you so far is blind fanboyism in every thread you participate in, posting nonsensical information without basis (like claiming to know exactly what game development entails), copy/pasting forum rules, and just general pointlessness.

Anyway, I've developed a little bit of a reputation for only posting silly things, mostly because for the past two years I've been bitter as fuck with the seemingly nonexistent progress this game has made, but at the end of the day as pilgrim* so eloquently pointed out, I've gotten thousands of hours of entertainment (even though a lot of it has been frustrating as hell and bug-riddled) from the DayZ Standalone and Mod, so I guess I really can't complain as a whole. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Congratulations on wasting your life playing a video.  Want a cookie for it?  Again, that last post of mine was to show how stupid yourself and anyone who keeps bitching and moaning about the game and it's development because it told you not to "buy" it unless you want to actively support it's development.  Plain and fucking simple.  Throwing your arms in the air and screaming about how much the developers suck because it's been in alpha for 4+ years is not supporting them and again, they are right on track as far as it comes to game development.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

17 minutes ago, Guy Smiley said:

Congratulations on wasting your life playing a video. Want a cookie for it?  Again, that last post of mine was to show how stupid yourself and anyone who keeps bitching and moaning about the game and it's development because it told you not to "buy" it unless you want to actively support it's development.  Plain and fucking simple.  Throwing your arms in the air and screaming about how much the developers suck because it's been in alpha for 4+ years is not supporting them and again, they are right on track as far as it comes to game development.

What are you even talking about? Lord Jesus.

Why is there always one guy who has no other argument for anything except to quote the Early Access disclaimer? It's so played-out, it's irritating. I'm not even addressing the fact that the game is in Early Access, I'm attempting to discuss how the business model is not good for consumers. Like, this transcends DayZ alone. Can you wrap your mind around that? Hmm?

And for the record, I, and anyone else who has purchased this game, am allowed to complain about it. I paid money for the right to complain. Bohemia Interactive can post as many disclaimers as they want – that disclaimer is only there to protect their ass in the event this game isn't completed.

IT DOESN'T MEAN IT EVER WILL BE.

So for the love of God, if you're going to defend the game, by all means do so. Just try a different angle, because you're making yourself out to look very ignorant.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Grimey Rick
Format.

[BeefBacon 1185]

13 minutes ago, Grimey Rick said:

What are you even talking about? Lord Jesus.

Why is there always one guy who has no other argument for anything except to quote the Early Access disclaimer? It's so played-out, it's irritating. I'm not even addressing the fact that the game is in Early Access, I'm attempting to discuss how the business model is not good for consumers. Like, this transcends DayZ alone. Can you wrap your mind around that? Hmm?

And for the record, I, and anyone else who has purchased this game, am allowed to complain about it. I paid money for the right to complain. Bohemia Interactive can post as many disclaimers as they want – that disclaimer is only there to protect their ass in the event this game isn't completed.

IT DOESN'T MEAN IT EVER WILL BE.

So for the love of God, if you're going to defend the game, by all means do so. Just try a different angle, because you're making yourself out to look very ignorant.

I agree. DayZ is the only game I've ever bought into early access for, and Skyrim was the only game I ever pre-ordered. I've played the shit out of Skyrim, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how DayZ develops, but having seen so many early access projects fail and so many pre-ordered games turn out to be shit, I'm extremely unlikely to buy into any other early access game or pre-order any other game ever again... well, except for maybe TES6. But yes, pre-ordering is not a good business model for consumers. Early access can be, in regards to the developers acting upon player feedback throughout development, but more often than not it isn't beneficial to the consumer.

But I would also say that it's the consumer's responsibility to judge whether buying into an early access title presents an acceptable level of risk. While it's a tired argument, the disclaimer remains valid. While people have the right to complain, they should take into consideration their own decision to purchase an early access game before they do so.

My own position remains that while I wish DayZ's development was faster, I have other shit that I can do while we wait. I'm confident that DayZ will, eventually, be completed but if for whatever reason BI decided to suddenly drop DayZ and cease development, I got my money's worth out of it. Hell, I've probably got more play time per £ in DayZ than I do in Skyrim and, as I said, I really liked Skyrim.

[Guy Smiley 534]

32 minutes ago, Grimey Rick said:

What are you even talking about? Lord Jesus.

Why is there always one guy who has no other argument for anything except to quote the Early Access disclaimer? It's so played-out, it's irritating. I'm not even addressing the fact that the game is in Early Access, I'm attempting to discuss how the business model is not good for consumers. Like, this transcends DayZ alone. Can you wrap your mind around that? Hmm?

And for the record, I, and anyone else who has purchased this game, am allowed to complain about it. I paid money for the right to complain. Bohemia Interactive can post as many disclaimers as they want – that disclaimer is only there to protect their ass in the event this game isn't completed.

IT DOESN'T MEAN IT EVER WILL BE.

So for the love of God, if you're going to defend the game, by all means do so. Just try a different angle, because you're making yourself out to look very ignorant.

My OP isn't about the "early access".  You're the one who brought up that argument and i'm telling you it doesn't fucking matter.  It's about the fact that the game is on course for regular development.  Get that through your head

[Grimey Rick 3417]

42 minutes ago, Guy Smiley said:

My OP isn't about the "early access".  You're the one who brought up that argument and i'm telling you it doesn't fucking matter.  It's about the fact that the game is on course for regular development.  Get that through your head

No, your OP is an attempt to prove that because other games (that weren't Early Access) took a long time to make due to varied circumstances, that it's okay for DayZ to take forever as well. Congratulations. Games take a while to make; some longer than others. Unfortunately, there is another end to that spectrum – Early Access games that were released in a fraction of the time of DayZ.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Steam_Early_Access_games

So yeah, some games take a long time to finish and others don't – that doesn't really validate your thread – we could've posted that DayZ is taking up to four times longer than a lot of other already released Early Access games.

And let's be real: if we got some actual progress and regular communication from the guys we invested our money into, nobody would be complaining. This game was pretty fun when updates were regular... even when they broke things. Some of my fondest memories were finding game-breaking bugs after a new patch. I discovered and reported how to crash a server by throwing a splint – I had a lot of fun with that for a few hours, though. Or how to crawl underneath the hangars in NEAF, or how to float between levels in any given building, et cetera. Broken as fuck, but still fun to figure out.

Anyway, thanks for telling me that "something doesn't fucking matter" – I'm glad you've decided for the entire gaming world that Early Access development and pre-orders are great for everyone.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Grimey Rick

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

Why is there always a noob who quotes steam charts like they are the harbinger of doom?

Or a not so noob....

It's a fairly regular occurrence but I guess you wouldn't know that if you're just a troll interloping fair weather supporter.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

10 hours ago, Grimey Rick said:

And for the record, I, and anyone else who has purchased this game, am allowed to complain about it. I paid money for the right to complain. Bohemia Interactive can post as many disclaimers as they want – that disclaimer is only there to protect their ass in the event this game isn't completed.

To be fair, BI doesn't need to put a disclaimer there. Valve has already got them covered by stating on the EA FAQ page that some games may never be finished, which is why you should only pay for a game if you want to play it in its current state.

That said, let's not resort to all-caps and bigger size font. No one can hear you scream on the internet and it doesn't make anyone's point any more clear, convincing, or valid. From here on I hope you guys can continue the convo with some patience for each other even if you disagree.

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

1 hour ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

From here on I hope you guys can continue the convo with some patience for each other even if you disagree.

Historically, the further we are from our last patch the more agitated and combative the members here become.

People will likely have short fuses and be more acerbic until we have relief from this wait.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

7 minutes ago, ☣BioHaze☣ said:

Historically, the further we are from our last patch the more agitated and combative the members here become.

People will likely have short fuses and be more acerbic until we have relief from this wait.

I don't disagree but if people have so much trouble behaving themselves, maybe they could be put on a vacation until the next patch arrives. c: (But we're not at that point yet.)

[Gobbokirk 546]

8 minutes ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

I don't disagree but if people have so much trouble behaving themselves, maybe they could be put on a vacation until the next patch arrives. c: (But we're not at that point yet.)

That's why we need <Gobbohugs> to everyone, if that doesn't help nothing will ;)

[Grimey Rick 3417]

17 minutes ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

I don't disagree but if people have so much trouble behaving themselves, maybe they could be put on a vacation until the next patch arrives. c: (But we're not at that point yet.)

What's wrong with the conversation here that would merit a "vacation"? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

1 hour ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

To be fair, BI doesn't need to put a disclaimer there. Valve has already got them covered by stating on the EA FAQ page that some games may never be finished, which is why you should only pay for a game if you want to play it in its current state.

That said, let's not resort to all-caps and bigger size font. No one can hear you scream on the internet and it doesn't make anyone's point any more clear, convincing, or valid. From here on I hope you guys can continue the convo with some patience for each other even if you disagree.

Okay, so formatting our text with the provided forum tools is now a no-go. Totally makes sense.

Using caps/bold/italics to emphasize a point is a pretty general means of communication on not only the internet, but like, books and stuff. 

I learn so much here on a daily basis.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Grimey Rick
GG PHONE

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

8 minutes ago, Grimey Rick said:

What's wrong with the conversation here that would merit a "vacation"? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Okay, so formatting our text with the provided forum tools is now a no-go. Totally makes sense.

Using caps/bold/italics to emphasize a point is a pretty general means of communication on not only the internet, but like, books and stuff. 

I learn so much here on a daily basis.

Please don't give me lip, I'm only asking you guys to calm it down. Bolds/italics is fine, but combining all-caps, color, and a larger font size is completely unnecessary.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

22 minutes ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

Please don't give me lip, I'm only asking you guys to calm it down. Bolds/italics is fine, but combining all-caps, color, and a larger font size is completely unnecessary.

I just don't understand why you're singling out my posts when, unlike the OP, I've actually contributed to his thread. His posts consist of [paraphrasing] "this is how it fucking is, fuck off, it'll be fucking done when it's done, end of conversation". What scintillating conversation!

Read literally every response he's sent my way in this thread. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, but if we're calling a spade a spade, let's do it properly.

So, to recap:

✔️ I fully understand this is an early access game. After 1,600 hours played, you'd have to be pretty thick not to. However, I don't have to agree with how BI is handling this game. Do I have to play it? Nope. Do I have to comment? Nope. But just like most messes in the world, they're generally caused by the silent majority who just accept everything thrown at them like many people here. BI can do no wrong.

✔️ Just because there have been instances where games have taken ridiculously long periods of time to develop and release does not mean DayZ is "right on track". I provided a larger list of games that have released much, much, faster than the time DayZ has been in development.

✔️ I'm not trying to "give you lip", there's just a very present sense of skewed moderation and passive-aggressiveness on these forums. Certain cliques tend to band together when there's  a thread or post that causes any amount of a ripple. Unfortunately, this is still the best place to discuss the game. Reddit and Steam discussion areas are cringeworthy.

[pilgrim* 3514]

1 hour ago, Grimey Rick said:

.. let's do it properly.

Seems a reasonable response to me.

The BIG question that no one is addressing is this:

1) So you/me paid our $30 dollars

2) Does this give you/me the right to play DayZ FOREVER with every update, with a company spending money on it, with software engineers and coders driving in to work on it day after day ?

3) will you EVER have to pay any more or will you still be able to play DayZ in - 100 YEARS FROM NOW - just for that one down payment ?

4) Where will BI get their money from to support DayZ for the next 100 YEARS without any payment except the new-player once-only lifetime entry fee ?

5) will there ever be a DayZ II    (that you pay to buy) ?

6) WHEN will it end, because it MUST end .. right ?

just asking the obvious

* * *

xxP

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by pilgrim*
(instead of having a crisis about some $30 I spent YEARS AGO on something or other)

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

2 hours ago, Grimey Rick said:

Unfortunately, this is still the best place to discuss the game. Reddit and Steam discussion areas are cringeworthy.

Wow, something we agree on....

Be careful lumping people into one group in any instance.

I don't, "take everything that's thrown at me", I just don't throw a fit whenever things don't go the way I think they should.

Objectivity and realistic and flexible expectations can temper a person for adversity.

[plasma (DayZ) 17]

It does not take 7-10 years to make a pc game.  the engines used now days are pretty simple straightforward plus the differences in tech from day 1 to year 10 would be too drastic.  Problem with Dayz is they seem to focus on minor things when instead they should have focused on major.. ie. vehicles.  I started playing PUBG and although there are no zombies, no sickness, hunger, thirst and overall not a real survival game, I can tell whoever made it was a fan of dayz.  vehicles are what they should be.   I seriously doubt I will come back to dayz when/if it ever goes "live".  I think they've just taken too long and most have lost interest.

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

17 minutes ago, plasma (DayZ) said:

the engines used now days are pretty simple straightforward

Didn't read carefully past this because it seems to discount that BI is making the engine from scratch to run DayZ specifically. Then you start talking about PuG-B (the gangster pug with a radical attitude!), made from unreal engine that's basically DayZ-theft-auto, rinse and repeat shooter of the month.

It's not a fair comparison in many ways and to either game.

In fact, I'm not sure how you can say what you say and actually have an accurate understanding of what DayZ 1.0 will be like.

Edited October 31, 2017 by ☣BioHaze☣