[Dev] Eye zoom 'probably' being removed entirely

[IMT 3190]

16 minutes ago, Mantasisg said:

lets use scopes to achieve realistic fov, hooray

Just use the Windows Magnifying Glass function.

[pilgrim* 3514]

2 hours ago, Espa said:

 .. // ..

<<Eye focusing is more like a Camera, like you said>>
- No, in fact I didn't anything of that kind at all.

<<DayZ is a game and there just simply is not a way to replicate real life inside a game>>
 - I guess you don't mean tennis ? If there is no way to do it why does anyone bother trying ?

<<Everyone will be on the same playing field with this change>>
- They are on the same playing field now.

 <<The 'Eye-Zoom' is not a realistic feature in the way that it works exactly like a Binocular/Scope>>
- No it doesn't. 

 

<<if the DayZ Devs do decide to remove the 'Eye-Zoom', it simply won't matter anymore>>

It will matter to players. It won't matter to people who don't care.

 

xx

you know a "cat" can' NOT see a prey close by that is motionless? - That's why the cat MUST wait to spot the first movement to spring.  They are great at spotting movement within a "useful" hunting distance, but they can't detect motionless prey at close range (we beat them on that). They make up for it with a very fast and predictive compensation reaction time (they can already tell where it is going in a instant, as they see the movement). 

So what has this got to do with eyesight?  (sorry dude, I'll let you work that one out .. ) 

I know that eyesight and the DNA-design that predicates eyesight+ and vision-processing as a high-level and very complex primary human evolved instinctive ability, necessary & enabling 70000+ years of uniquely specialized hunting, predation, and surviving  - is a subject I don't expect players who "just play the game" to want to understand (why bother, it's just a game, games "can't be realistic"). = No problem.= BUT games develop, and get better and "apparently more realistic" all the time.
Especially THIS game, DayZ,  needs to have a strong direction and careful determination of what the player persona experiences, in game  -  That's NOT kill count, OK?  I mean the player's perception., how much a player feels and acts as if INSIDE an environment?. Otherwise we should all go back to playing Zelda on Gameboy Pocket, right?   What's the difference?

Human eyesight simply does not work the way you think it works, but  you can't SEE it.   <lol>

 

* * * * * * *

Espa -  maybe your time would be better spent getting 3pp kicked out of the game ? .. hmm ?

* * * * * * *

 

xx

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by pilgrim*
.. run the funnies

[Espa 711]

14 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

-Thisguylol-

[BeefBacon 1185]

2 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Monitor size.  That is what I was quoting Mantasisg about.   On a 24" or larger monitor playing at 1080p you are capable of seeing objects or players at a distance easier than someone who is playing on a 15" screen at 1080p.  Hell, players have been using lower resolutions to gain a competitive edge over others due the the fact they can spot players easier at a distance when using lower resolutions.

Well, no, pros play at 4:3 stretched to make it easier to hit distant targets. Distant, in this context, means like 30m away, not half a kilometer.

The eye zoom compensates for the fact that a monitor displaying a videogame does not accurately depict the visual acuity of the human eye. If you have a wide FoV, you'll have difficulty spotting anything beyond a couple of hundred meters. If you have a narrow FoV you'll be able to spot distant targets, but you'll have severe tunnel vision. Zooming compensates for the fact that we can't have both a wide FoV and be able to pick out and identify objects at a distance. Most monitors simply aren't big enough and can't display enough pixels for that to be possible.

Playing at a lower resolution (which I do, for a small performance boost) makes it somewhat more difficult to spot and identify distant objects. What might be a vaguely man-shaped object on the horizon at 1920x1080 becomes two pixels on lower resolutions. This means that players with smaller monitors or lower resolutions will be at a marked disadvantage compared to those with larger monitors and higher resolutions. Being able to zoom levels the playing field a little bit. I'd actually go one step further and say that your game resolution should affect how much you can zoom.

If the devs won't remove 3pp because it'll upset the playerbase, I'm sure they can preserve eye zoom.

[Guy Smiley 534]

3 minutes ago, BeefBacon said:

Well, no, pros play at 4:3 stretched to make it easier to hit distant targets. Distant, in this context, means like 30m away, not half a kilometer.

The eye zoom compensates for the fact that a monitor displaying a videogame does not accurately depict the visual acuity of the human eye. If you have a wide FoV, you'll have difficulty spotting anything beyond a couple of hundred meters. If you have a narrow FoV you'll be able to spot distant targets, but you'll have severe tunnel vision. Zooming compensates for the fact that we can't have both a wide FoV and be able to pick out and identify objects at a distance. Most monitors simply aren't big enough and can't display enough pixels for that to be possible.

Playing at a lower resolution (which I do, for a small performance boost) makes it somewhat more difficult to spot and identify distant objects. What might be a vaguely man-shaped object on the horizon at 1920x1080 becomes two pixels on lower resolutions. This means that players with smaller monitors or lower resolutions will be at a marked disadvantage compared to those with larger monitors and higher resolutions. Being able to zoom levels the playing field a little bit. I'd actually go one step further and say that your game resolution should affect how much you can zoom.

If the devs won't remove 3pp because it'll upset the playerbase, I'm sure they can preserve eye zoom.

You're joking right?  

[igor-vk 909]

Eye zoom is one of the things I like and one of things that make DayZ/Arma different from other games. I hope it stays in game, if nothng else then in options on moded servers. 

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

14 hours ago, Mantasisg said:

Maybe just make the correct FOV aka iron sight, aka eagle eye, aka bionic eye as default. And ditch the stretched out one, as that is less realistic, at least mathematically. But oh welll.... performance.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, so please excuse me if it isn't, but.. Do you enjoy playing games at 45 FOV? Is that what you do when there isn't a toggle?

 

7 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Hell, players have been using lower resolutions to gain a competitive edge over others due the the fact they can spot players easier at a distance when using lower resolutions.

That's some interesting backwards-logic, but sure, when there are less pixels (less detail at a distance), you might notice more color changes on a per-pixel basis, but I'm pretty sure you'd notice a lot more if you simply had more detail in any given space.. Besides, what you're saying is missing a lot of nuance, people aren't playing CSGO (or any other competitive game) at 800x600 to "see better" than the other team with their peasant 1920x1080 resolution. The reasons are things like preference, more stable FPS, higher refresh rate, and visually wider character models (4:3 aspect ratio) or just not having their eyes "wander" around the screen (boxed 4:3).

These reasons don't really apply to DayZ, especially because of what's already been said about resolution and distance. You're not going to spot that grainy-wookie-bush on the hill even with "eye zoom" if you're playing at too low a resolution.

[BeefBacon 1185]

6 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

You're joking right?  

About what specifically? You quoted my entire post.

[-Gews- 7443]

So this is interesting. Here's the reddit post made 4 days ago by u/RogerBadger3344 which is where I first heard this. Mr. RogerBadger is very much in favour of keeping the zoom.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/6w7z48/my_thoughts_about_the_removal_of_zoom_feature/

Anyways:

112 upvotes, 92% of voters upvoted.

And almost every commenter (44 total comments) says they support keeping the 'eye zoom' function. Those figures would be bigger but like this forum, r/dayz is pretty slow these days. 

 

Anyways: for who are they making this change? I'm sure the average gamer more interested in Overwatch or whatever doesn't care, but removal of 'eye zoom' doesn't seem to be something the core DayZ community supports, at all. And ARMA 3 manages to get along fine, even though it has a substantially greater zoom than we have in DayZ 0.62.

I don't buy the idea that simple zooming in and out makes such a giant performance hit that it needs to go, despite being a fundamental feature for many years.

Edited August 31, 2017 by -Gews-

[DannyDog 532]

Hopefully when they do a live stream that we can ask them more questions about this as they do not often partake in many of these forum discussions. I'm sure they read these 100% but yea. Sucks not knowing.

[Mantasisg 172]

9 hours ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, so please excuse me if it isn't, but.. Do you enjoy playing games at 45 FOV? Is that what you do when there isn't a toggle?

Yeah... maybe slightly on a sarcasm side. Both FOV states are necessary in DayZ IMO. Large FOV is necessary for getting realsitic peripheral vision, and small ( aka zoomed) FOV is necessary for vision in distance. While some has used an arguments about other games not using this feature and being alright. It has to be said that DayZ having huge map and relatively very low amount of players per server will harm the gameplay by taking out so called eagle eye. Eventually we will get a bit less understanding what is happening in larger distances, eventually we will feel even more lonely in DayZ than we are now. And this is exact reason while DayZ is dying, it should be all about meeting various people, friendly not friendly, neutral, psychos, helpers, multiple nationalities, differently looted, in different situations and places (though map is too big to have frequent interactions at any place in inlands). DayZ didn't have had very much of that lately. Stripped out social aspect of DayZ also results in severe KOS, non-creativity among the players....... Removing "eagle eye" will just add to the problem. No sarcasm, no stupid jokes, it is serious. 

What has been done, and harmed social aspect of DayZ already:

• Next to none loot at the coasts results in players scattering through the map, and making interactions more rare;
• Too many points of interest results in players getting all around the map and making interactions more rare;
• Now removing zoom will reduce ability to spot one another and it will also add to the issue....
  
  All three are developers choices, and it is getting clear that making interactions more and more rare is the vision. Maybe this is really a game which has been funded by millions just for a few thousand niche players who likes to be pretending to be hardcore survivors running around for five hours a day while their spouses are doing all the work around the house lol
  
  I have a feeling that this will stay that way. Modding where are you, will you happen ?

Edited August 31, 2017 by Mantasisg

[pilgrim* 3514]

 

About the screen size & FOV argument :

- Has no one NOTICED that before a sniper takes his shot he will go to config/Options ON THE FLY  and change FOV, narrow it far down to get a much better shot?  This is a standard thing for some players. There is nothing can be done about this to make if "fair" for everyone - It's like turning up gamma at night, you can't force everyone to have the same size VDU, you can't set a fixed one-size-fits-everybody FOV in DayZ.   For a long shot it is pretty standard to alter FOV before the shot. Several honest serious players do it (YouTube) - Then set it back before you go to loot or skin the animal. Takes one second, 4 clicks and you're back in the game, as easy as using the inventory

Just my dime's worth to try to settle the screen-size FOV advantage disadvantage argument here.

MEANWHILE on topic - Gews is Right.

*

 

 

 

[DannyDog 532]

24 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

 

About the screen size & FOV argument :

- Has no one NOTICED that before a sniper takes his shot he will go to config/Options ON THE FLY  and change FOV, narrow it far down to get a much better shot?  This is a standard thing for some players. There is nothing can be done about this to make if "fair" for everyone - It's like turning up gamma at night, you can't force everyone to have the same size VDU, you can't set a fixed one-size-fits-everybody FOV in DayZ.   For a long shot it is pretty standard to alter FOV before the shot. Several honest serious players do it (YouTube) - Then set it back before you go to loot or skin the animal. Takes one second, 4 clicks and you're back in the game, as easy as using the inventory

Just my dime's worth to try to settle the screen-size FOV advantage disadvantage argument here.

MEANWHILE on topic - Gews is Right.

*

 

 

 

That fov changing thing was patched in a recent update. You have a set FOV value now when you scope or  ADS now so you can't do that anymore IIRC.

[pilgrim* 3514]

On 8/31/2017 at 10:10 AM, DannyDog said:

That fov changing thing was patched in a recent update. You have a set FOV value now when you scope or  ADS now so you can't do that anymore IIRC.

I meant you change FOV before you put your eye into the sight line - you can't do that anymore?  I don't mean lining up on target and then using the FOV as an extra zoom after you are aimed.  You can change the FOV when you are holding a Mosin in your hands, can't you, when you see the chance of setting up a long shot?  - Scuse me if  I'm wrong. It's not a thing I do. Do you have to restart the session to change the set FOV?

 

[later: OK @DannyDogI checked, you can still set your FOV slider without leaving the game, as it always was. So there's now a return to a default BI preset  FOV when you scope or  ADS?  ( - so your screen size really does make a difference! )   ?? ok..  with the FOV slider set to top or bottom, either, you can still keyboard zoom in and out.

 

*

Back on topic - I agree with Gews. His explanations are practical. (mine are cr@p)

I notice I use the "so called eye zoom", a flick at a time, very often, its just natural when you are moving.
- and I don't use 3pp.. I use it max once or twice in a play session to check my gear color against the background or for vanity (just to see what I look like), but never in towns or on the move or in danger. It feels right to be inside your own head and to LOOK - I fell into these 2 habits without thinking about either of them, they both come naturally. I didn't make a decision, it just plays right.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by pilgrim*
bore players - MORE -

[green_mtn_grandbob 594]

On 8/28/2017 at 8:58 PM, -Gews- said:

[...] we lowered the zoom quite drastically [...] when compared to the ARMA, but now we had some issues with the [...] zooming value (?) in (?) the iron sights, so we tear it up (?), completely out, for this version, and I think, it will maybe... well, I like it, because [...]

[talks about FOV and LODs] 

[...] 

This is a transcript from the video in the first post. I think he may have been talking about the demo at gamescom.

 

[ImageCtrl 719]

I guess the engine will be also used for other games. It is worth doing it right.
I'm surprised that such an idea appears in a video.
It is a long way until such ideas come into the public.
Why such ideas are not internally immediately dismissed as unacceptable.
Other games copy the Arma feature...

Edited August 31, 2017 by ImageCtrl

[DannyDog 532]

16 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

I meant you change FOV before you put your eye into the sight line - you can't do that anymore?  I don't mean lining up on target and then using the FOV as an extra zoom after you are aimed.  You can change the FOV when you are holding a Mosin in your hands, can't you, when you see the chance of setting up a long shot?  - Scuse me if  I'm wrong.

I'm pretty sure if you set your FOV all the way down you can't zoom anymore since they added the cap. For example you are holding a mosin with default fov, you can zoom in to scan tree lines, you then decide to change your FOV all the way down but now that its fully zoomed in, you can't zoom in anymore using RMB. So you're not really gaining anything, if anything your limiting yourself to zoom back out to not get tunnel visioned.

[-Gews- 7443]

Here's a comparison via ARMA 2.

From left to right, the zoom we had in DayZ mod, our zoom right now in DayZ 0.62, and finally, the zoom in Gamescom 0.63.

Like I said before, if you don't know exactly what 100 or 300 metres looks like IRL, one can easily measure distances near you via Google Maps and make his own impressions on which of these images fits closest with his observations.

 

First, at 100 metres:

 

 

And now at 300 metres:

 

 

 

On 8/31/2017 at 2:49 AM, ImageCtrl said:

Why such ideas are not internally immediately dismissed as unacceptable.

This.

[sanguine00 168]

For anyone who needs further explanation as to why the "eye zoom" is present in the first place, maybe you will trust a DayZ developer (from June 30, 2015 SR - scroll down to the passage written by Jan):

https://dayz.com/blog/status-report-30-jun-2015#/title3

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by sanguine00

[pilgrim* 3514]

 

ya can 'eyezoom' IN and ya can also 'eyezoom' OUT
what a GOOD simple way for the game to imitate a normal attentive & alert person in Real Life
call it "closefocus" and "widefocus"

[Sqeezorz 839]

In my opinion, the title "Zoom" is the wrong word. it is more Focus or Targeted seeing. If we look then we see everything, but nothing really exactly, if we focus on a particular place, then this spot seems more exact to us and the environment around it becomes unimportant (you could almost call it blur). therefore it is not a "zoom" as it is from a scope.

(anyone who has ever shot at 100 or more meters with a rifle on a certain target knows what I mean, it requires a lot of concentration to aim, especially for a long time).

[-Gews- 7443]

2 minutes ago, Sqeezorz said:

In my opinion, the title "Zoom" is the wrong word. it is more Focus or Targeted seeing. If we look then we see everything, but nothing really exactly, if we focus on a particular place, then this spot seems more exact to us and the environment around it becomes unimportant (you could almost call it blur). therefore it is not a "zoom" as it is from a scope.

(anyone who has ever shot at 100 or more meters with a rifle on a certain target knows what I mean, it requires a lot of concentration to aim, especially for a long time).

It is a zoom technically, but not in practice, since compared to DayZ's scopes/binoculars, we are only 'zooming' in with our eyes to the scope/binocular's 1x power.

We, the players, use the feature when we want to focus on an area, but the word 'focus' seems confusing to many people (eg, if it is 'focus' then there are questions on why things are not blurred when out of focus and how focus != zoom) and the zoom behaviour doesn't mimic the mechanics of focusing in optics, so I'm not a fan of the word 'focus'.

Zoomed-in view gives our regular eyesight size+detail, but we can't play like that, so we also have zoomed-out to get a decent field of view. And of course in real life we get these two things simultaneously. So some suggestions, for example, "no zoom when moving" or "make it take longer to zoom in" don't make sense to me.

In the end it's a variable FOV range, so I guess we could call it 'eyesight range' or something. But then most won't know what we're talking about. Hence 'eye zoom'.

 

 

 

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

As much as I want the zoom left in, citing upvotes from Reddit won't bolster the point imo.

That same percent wants 3PP untouched and I think 3PP especially in its current form needs to go away forever.

Just say no to RTS zombie avoidance strats.

[sneakydude 480]

Any changes to the game, that might be important to the vanilla version of dayz should be restricted. However custom servers should be allowed to unlock any engine features, coding they want for custom versions of dayz. Maps, character controls, etc.. and bust this stamina and zoom feature if they so desire.

We will see, not much is mentioned.

 

but most of all leave vanilla alone.

 

[libertine 351]

I always thought eye zoom was to compensate for the perceivable detail from low resolution monitors compared to the human eye. Makes sense. If so, will its removal also come with a serving of Call of Duty weapon bob animation?