1st person perspective only (Message to devs)

[exwoll 255]

21 minutes ago, emuthreat said:

Yeah, I was trying pretty hard to not let this one go the way of fighting about which is better.

Thanks for that :). Someone even posted this in the sub. Seems that 2 pages without the fighting is a record lol

[svisketyggeren 662]

Im pretty sure most players dont know how easy it is to get used to either perspective. I played 3rd in Dayz mod, but switched to 1st along the way. At first it was uncomfortable with 1st, but after a couple playsessions 1st felt natural and 3rd had become uncomfortable. But lately ive been playing ARMA 3 and switched to 3rd again because of all the vehicles and tanks, and now its feels natural with 3rd again (not taking into consideration the obvious flaws of 3rd)

[FlimFlamm 509]

I really like 1PP, but you know, lots of people are passionate about 3PP too.

The best solution that we've come up with over the last few years of these threads is "let the marketplace of servers figure it out"/

Servers can decide if they want to allow 3PP or not. There's going to be so many awesome mods that in addition to this, servers are going to be highly varied in what they offer, which will lead people to search for the kinds of servers they want to play on, and if there are like minds, more of those servers will emerge to meet player demands.

Edited September 30, 2016 by FlimFlamm

[TheHappyMile 30]

DayZ should be a survival-game. And I'm sure it will be a real one.

DayZ is more then a generic PvP-Openworld-Shooter. But 3rdP restricts it to be exactly that.

 

The fear you feel when running through a zombie-filled city - knowing that snipers are in the windows just waiting for you. Trying to be silence while hunted by the infected. 

In 3rdP that experience would have been interesting. In 1stP without the control of corner peaking and better vision it was ne of the best moments in DayZ for me.

 

DayZ deserves more then the easier way.  Players should not feel comfortable. They should few the next doorway, the next corner, the next street.

 

Most players choose 3rdP. But if there's no choice? I'm sure they will play 1stP. And if they hate it, it's good.

Edited September 30, 2016 by TheHappyMile

[-Gews- 7443]

5 hours ago, FlimFlamm said:

I really like 1PP, but you know, lots of people are passionate about 3PP too.

The best solution that we've come up with over the last few years of these threads is "let the marketplace of servers figure it out"/

Servers can decide if they want to allow 3PP or not. There's going to be so many awesome mods that in addition to this, servers are going to be highly varied in what they offer, which will lead people to search for the kinds of servers they want to play on, and if there are like minds, more of those servers will emerge to meet player demands.

I agree in practice. In principle, I'd remove the 3rd person, but that's not realistic (remove the mode 95% of players prefer? *snorts*)

 

Yet apply this laissez-faire attitude to other areas of the game, and what would you end up with? 

MAX LOOT / MAX VEHICLES / SPAWN WITH RIFLE / DEPLOYABLE BIKE / AS50 / THERMALS / CUSTOM LOADOUTS / AI TRADER / SAFE ZONES / CUSTOM BASES

It's indisputable. Look at the mod. By late 2013 I could count the remaining vanilla servers on my fingers, while the custom Epoch/Overwatch/Overpoch servers numbered over 3,000, the rest were heavily customized 1.7.X or 1.8.X. 

Standalone's player base is no different.

 

Is that a problem? Depends on who you talk to.

My point is that many say "let people play how they want" when it comes to 1st vs 3rd person, yet a great number of those same people are against modding because it may lead to the proliferation of the MAX LOOT-type servers, drowning the vanilla game they would prefer, just as their preferred 3PP servers drown 1PP.

(and don't even think about suggesting "MAX LOOT / SPAWN WITH RIFLE" be incorporated as an official server type/game mode)

 

1st vs 3rd is a valid discussion, but one that will not change anything.

Edited October 1, 2016 by -Gews-

[exwoll 255]

3 hours ago, -Gews- said:

 

1st vs 3rd is a valid discussion, but one that will not change anything.

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about that.

A discussion like this brought me into 1pp, when I thought that 3pp was "THA THING", a decision that I'm not regretting at all (now only play 1pp). The more a topic is discussed, the more people's attention it catches, and then you only need that a couple of talented guys/girls get into it, and we will have some really good HC mods or servers out there. 

At the same time, with new people discussing the same problem, more opinions, pov, solutions emerge from it, and maybe, only maybe one of these will catch the interest of devs.

[evil koala 22]

On 9/17/2016 at 4:32 PM, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

No, I don't have stats in front of me - but I can say my gut feeling is 3PP is more popular. 
I'd say it is almost exclusively due to the path of least resistance.

If you give people the option for an easier experience, the *majority* of them will follow it.

 

So if you acknowledge that people choose 3pp because its easier, then what exactly do you have planned to make 1pp more appealing? If you wont remove 3pp and don't want to make 3pp more difficult to use, then you must be thinking of either making 1pp easier somehow or rewarding its use. Can you share any details?

[TheHappyMile 30]

3 hours ago, evil koala said:

So if you acknowledge that people choose 3pp because its easier, then what exactly do you have planned to make 1pp more appealing? If you wont remove 3pp and don't want to make 3pp more difficult to use, then you must be thinking of either making 1pp easier somehow or rewarding its use. Can you share any details?

 

Shouldn't the argument pro 1stP the perspective itself? And why does it have to be more easy? It's fine. It's harder. 

 

DayZ is to easy at all. Need more hardcore in this game, and 1stP is important to increase the thread by environment (infected, later animals) etc.

[Buakaw 274]

On 29.9.2016 at 10:36 PM, stinkenheim said:

If I could see out of windows in first person I would gladly play it more but it feels like my character is a child when I can barely see over the window ledge. Additionally, tone the volume of the character's breathing down... Can't hear anything after you've been running about.

two very good points. Female characters for example are unplayable in 1pp due to this. they moan at like twice the volume when out of breath.

Also I immersive myself so well in 1pp, but yes, the movement is very limited. I would love more options like leaning or climbing onto certain things to get a sneak peak around stuff or thru elevated windows for example. Basically all the things that 3pp currently does for you.

 

[emuthreat 2837]

On 9/30/2016 at 0:42 PM, FlimFlamm said:

Servers can decide if they want to allow 3PP or not. There's going to be so many awesome mods that in addition to this, servers are going to be highly varied in what they offer, which will lead people to search for the kinds of servers they want to play on, and if there are like minds, more of those servers will emerge to meet player demands.

That is exactly what some of us are afraid of, especially because of the current state of 1pp only servers.  One of the reasons that I never bought the mod was because I didn't like how fractured the community was, and how everything became a caricature of itself through the mods.

It is the exact reason I am concerned about not seeing much 1pp support in the game yet.  If they fix the current view position limitations, and the sickness/head-bob, but don't really make any effort push 1pp popularity, I'll be pretty disappointed with the developers for letting that part of the game atrophy to the point that it just falls off.

If I can't find a populated, vanilla, 1pp, official server to play on for the first year after 1.0 release, I'll consider it a sign of failure on the part of the developers.  It would be kinda like a city neglecting a park for years because it wasn't very popular, while ignoring that the reason for the lack of popularity, was their neglecting to cut the grass for years.

[sneakydude 480]

and many of us are happy to see modding. If 1st person becomes the norm, then modders will focus on that. Changing servers to suit the clients always happens.

Nobody wants to see vanilla gone, we want to better it if given the tools. I am happy that BI decided to allow us to keep focusing on it.

 

Did 1st person consider the argument that your not able to see your body in 1st person, but some consider that to be important. As in the past games, seeing gear etc...

We are not talking about a 120 FOV zoom, just enough to see the back of the character.

[tortuosit 0]

I think we have to accept the fact that most players prefer 3rd person play. I can see why that is, e.g. the limited overview is uncomfortable...

Unfortunately I dislike playing 3rd person and prefer the 1stP immersion and tension, but in 1st person vs 3rd person I'd be in a severe disadvantage. So I need to play 1stP-only servers which indeed are not crowded often.

 

We can only try to convince people that 1stP could be interesting alternative for them. Eg. dslyxci made a good video about 1st vs. 3rd. 

 

[Volcanogod 28]

On 9/30/2016 at 6:11 PM, -Gews- said:

MAX LOOT / MAX VEHICLES / SPAWN WITH RIFLE / DEPLOYABLE BIKE / AS50 / THERMALS / CUSTOM LOADOUTS / AI TRADER / SAFE ZONES / CUSTOM BASES ect....

I

I thought i had read somewhere that the steam workshop mods would have to be approved by the developers to keep with the spirit of the game, now i actually am unsure how they will deal with mods but i suppose they wouldn't allow you to make the undead Infected bikini clad chicks screaming "notice me sempai."

Edited October 11, 2016 by Volcanogod

[Radibor78 26]

On 17.9.2016 at 6:11 PM, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

Unfortunately, removing 3PP is not an option at this time.

That said, we do operate plenty of 1PP servers. Restricting experimental to 1PP only would mean we could miss an extensive amount of possible issues that are only present in 3PP.

I do have some plans to *try* and make 1PP more popular as we move closer to beta, but we'll have to see how that works out.

Regarding this and the other points you made, I wonder whether the team discussed just removing 1PP/3PP mixed servers by having 1PP only and 3PP only. As I see it there are advantages and disadvantages for both and for sure a lot of players on both sides and regarding balancing the problem is to have those two views mixed. If all players on a server uses the same view they all have to play under same condition and whether or not you like one more than the other the gameplay offers the same benefits and problems to all problems. If you play on a server that allows both you can switch between the views as required in that particular moment and the one who switches more efficiently has an advantage one way or another.

Also, if you have 1PP and 3PP servers separated you get a better statistic for how popular one is over the other etc.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Radibor78

[oldfossil 59]

Maybe IIIrd person view could be more acceptable if the blind p.o.v. areas will remain blind and players can't see anything more than buildings and environmental details and not other players or Z's.

Personally I prefer HC Ist person only servers.

[sneakydude 480]

On 10/10/2016 at 8:06 PM, Volcanogod said:

I thought i had read somewhere that the steam workshop mods would have to be approved by the developers to keep with the spirit of the game, now i actually am unsure how they will deal with mods but i suppose they wouldn't allow you to make the undead Infected bikini clad chicks screaming "notice me sempai."

That will be for public, i doubt they would care what happens on private hives as it does not talk to the central hives.

SQL databases will run on the server independent of the BI central servers, This is experience by Arma. I doubt too much would be different, as that has been already working well.

[Bororm 1156]

On 9/17/2016 at 11:38 AM, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

To be clear, when I say it is easier - I mean even with the gains we have made trying to balance 3PP - from a tactical standpoint, it is MUCH easier to get the upper hand with 3PP.

 

I know this thread and this post in particular is a bit old at this point but in off chance you actually read this Hicks, I'm going to reiterate what I've said in a million other places, to a million other people before.

Camera perspective doesn't give you an advantage, position does.  Everyone is playing with the same tools in either scenario, the tactics just change.  It is not "much easier" to get the upper hand in 3pp, any more than it is in certain scenarios in 1pp.  It's about playing smart in either case.

 

What 3pp does is it pushes you to have to think an extra step ahead.  Ironically, most people who prefer 1pp seem to have tunnel vision and try to play 3pp in the same way as they do 1pp.  As a result, they suffer for it then blame the mechanic.  Let's take the typical situation of a guy on a roof vs a guy on the ground.  I think we're all probably familiar with the elektro hospital days from the mod, so try to visualize that.  The player on the roof prones behind the ledge and uses the camera to look over, he has a pretty large FOV and isn't exposed to anyone immediately in front and below him.

However, he can't see straight down without crouching or even standing, and he is also completely exposed to anyone with higher elevation.  Continuing the elektro example, the school roof, the hills.  It's not the omnipresent eyeball people make it out to be, and he can't see in every direction at once.    However, there is also the issue that he must crouch or stand to fire on anyone, so anyone on the ground can stay behind a corner/cover and peek back at the roof top.  They can't see him, he can't see them, the first to expose themself potentially loses.  DayZ is not played in a vacuum, the player on the ground only needs to do one thing to completely negate the other player's initial advantage, assume he is there.  With experience you learn the most likely places for players to be, and you act accordingly.  Just as you don't blindly run into high risk buildings in 1pp.  The player below can try to gain elevation, or even climb one of the ladders and now he is peeking on the roof top player, waiting for his chance.

Almost every elevated position in the game has another which offers a vantage point, the map is actually very well designed.  Even if there wasn't, the player below can still just wait behind cover and peek back.  It becomes a matter of patience.  Yes the elevated player has the advantage of not needing to worry about other approaching threats, but again, that is because he initially chose the better location.  Just as a player in 1pp who chooses a choke point (let's say a room with 1 entrance) has an "advantage."  There is always the other option to consider as well, you don't need to engage and end every single fight.  The player who is not camping has the option to leave.

The problem everyone who claims 3pp is unfair, or offers an "advantage" or is "easy" has is that they view the situation always from that of the victim.  Ignoring that it goes both ways.  It just pushes you to think around an extra corner.  There is that video people love to show by Dyslexcia which also completely misses this point.  It shows multiple scenarios, all from one perspective (again, ironically) and doesn't show the opposite.  It shows a player seeing others over a wall, ignoring that those players can see them back.  It shows a player peeking around a corner at others, ignoring that the other players could shift behind their own corner and do the exact same thing back.

 

Are RTS games played in 1pp?  Is chess?  Checkers?  Dismissing the strategy and tactical changes that come about as being unbalanced or unfair is a disservice to your own intellect.  It's blaming a mechanic because you won't adapt.  Claiming you've lost simply because your opponent had it "easier" because he made better use of the tools you are both working with.

 

1pp offers its own "easier" scenarios itself.  You can sit around a corner, waiting for foot steps, just to blast some one as they blindly run into a room.  I play a decent amount of arma and when I want to do long range sniping I almost always choose a 1pp server, because I can sit in an obscure place, a very long way out from a town/city and be sure that every opponent who is actually engaging is going to be on a roof or in a window, making them easy targets.  I can see a wide range of movement while they are forced to look for a single stationary dot.  On a 3pp server, a city becomes a huge cluster of cover with potentially numerous enemies peeking back to find me, regardless of if I am peeking myself.  Because again, you must expose yourself to fire.  It just shifts what is more advantageous in different scenarios.  And to reiterate one last time, the advantage comes from the position you chose whether it's 1pp or 3pp.  Your own decision, not your enemy's.

 

 

Oh and one final note, because I can't resist ;) if you wanna talk about making things "easy" let's talk about the third person crosshair, specifically the SA dynamic crosshair, in both 1pp and 3pp Hicks.  When can we get that to at least be an official functioning server option?

 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Bororm

[scriptfactory 620]

You are a wise man, Bororm. A shame more people don't apply their critical thinking skills to the 1pp vs 3pp "debate".

More server options would be awesome, too.

[BeefBacon 1185]

11 hours ago, Bororm said:

Ironically, most people who prefer 1pp seem to have tunnel vision and try to play 3pp in the same way as they do 1pp.  As a result, they suffer for it then blame the mechanic

And most people who prefer 3pp suffer in 1pp for the exact same reason. They're used to being able to wall peek, and being unable to do so makes them feel unsafe.

11 hours ago, Bororm said:

 

It becomes a matter of patience

Waiting for the other player to get bored and break cover. Riveting. A while back I got into a firefight with a guy at some fire station - this is on 1pp. I guess he saw me go in and he waited for me outside. It was night time and I found a flare gun, and I thought it'd be fun to fire a flare off into the sky. As I was leaving the fire station, the guy shot at me. Apparently he wasn't a very good shot because only one or two rounds hit me. I panicked, fired my flare randomly and ran back into the fire station. I used the sound of the flare burning to position myself so as to grant plenty of cover from the big front doors, and provide a clear firing angle at the back door. I waited several minutes without moving - hoping to convince my assailant that I was dead. I had no idea whatsoever what he was doing. I didn't know if he was at the back door, I didn't know if he was at the front door, I didn't know if he was alone or in a group, or if he was even there at all. I chose to wait and see. Eventually he pokes his head through the back door and I'm able to kill him. It was exciting because I had no idea what was about to happen - I had no information besides the fact that a few minutes ago somebody shot at me. In 3pp I would have been able to just look around and go "Oh, there's one guy waiting for me" and he would have been able to look around and go "Oh, he's alive, isn't bleeding and his gun is better than mine. Guess I'll just leave then." Instead, we relied on our limited information. For all I knew there were 3 of them and they were all armed with assault rifles ready to rush in, or they were about to throw a grenade in. I had no clue and he had no clue, and that is what made the encounter exciting.

In your scenario, both players know when they can break cover and both players know what the other is doing. You're right, it does become a matter of patience - not in any interesting sense concerning tactical positioning, but in the sense of who gets bored first.

11 hours ago, Bororm said:

 

However, there is also the issue that he must crouch or stand to fire on anyone, so anyone on the ground can stay behind a corner/cover and peek back at the roof top

Which takes a couple of seconds. Plenty of time to stand, fire and crouch before your target has even had time to figure out what just happened. You also see it with, say, somebody running down a road, an alley, a corridor, whatever. They'll be happy as larry, checking horizons, making sure nobody is there, going from house to house seeing absolutely no movement. Little do they know that at the end of the road is somebody hiding round a corner at the last house, and they've been watching our intrepid scavenger for the past 3 minutes knowing full well that all they have to do is wait for him to approach and then at the exact, perfect moment just step out and blast him before he has time to react. Are you suggesting that players should be hyper-cautious around every corner because it's possible that somebody could be waiting for them? Obviously in 1pp somebody could just be waiting in a room, but the difference there is that if the camper sees you, that means that you had the possibility of seeing them. The camper can wait in that room, but he has no guarantee that you'll ever enter it because he can't observe your every movement while you have no opportunity to view his. Again, going back to my little story, I waited in that fire station without any information, and I lucked out when he happened to poke his head through the entrance I was watching. That is not the same as knowing exactly when to strike.

Also bear in mind the dissonance of "super hardcore survival" and "third-person perspective." That has a habit of putting people off. "Coming this summer - based on the harrowing tale of Anne Frank's Diary, a film starring Adam Sandler, Kevin James and 1990s Jim Carrey." 3pp has its place, but many would argue that that place isn't in a hardcore survival game.

11 hours ago, Bororm said:

 

And to reiterate one last time, the advantage comes from the position you chose whether it's 1pp or 3pp.  Your own decision, not your enemy's

I don't think anyone is contesting that. The issue is positioning vs information. I can position myself to have an extremely narrow angle of fire that is well-covered from all angles except the one I am aiming towards. If I see anyone, they're dead. However, in taking this position I sacrifice information. If you want to sit in that same position for 6 hours before a single person passes in front of your field of view, be my guest. You have to break cover for the sake of reconnaissance, and that is when you become vulnerable. Conversely you can sit at the top of a massive tower with nought but a thin railing for cover and you'll be able to see everything at the cost of protection. What 3pp does is it lets you take a very secure position and observe your surroundings at the same time. It negates one of the most important and interesting aspects of multiplayer combat in favour of "well you should have known somebody was using their spirit-vision to spy on you."

Edited October 24, 2016 by BeefBacon

[HarmattanAssassin 2]

I play all ArmA related games (including DayZ) in 3rd person, and can't play them in 1st person. There's something about the way the graphics are done that gives me motion sickness if I play in first person. With 3rd person, I have a fairly non-moving object (my player) in the center of my screen to focus on when needed. In first person, everything moves around too much and I get nauseous.

That's why I use 3rd person in all ArmA related products. 

[BeefBacon 1185]

37 minutes ago, HarmattanAssassin said:

I play all ArmA related games (including DayZ) in 3rd person, and can't play them in 1st person. There's something about the way the graphics are done that gives me motion sickness if I play in first person. With 3rd person, I have a fairly non-moving object (my player) in the center of my screen to focus on when needed. In first person, everything moves around too much and I get nauseous.

That's why I use 3rd person in all ArmA related products. 

Turn off head bob and motion blur, and put your FoV settings up to anywhere between 90 and 110, if possible. Might help.

[HarmattanAssassin 2]

On 11/1/2016 at 2:14 PM, BeefBacon said:

Turn off head bob and motion blur, and put your FoV settings up to anywhere between 90 and 110, if possible. Might help.

I have motion blur, head bob turned off, and setting FOV to anything higher than default makes objects (players) too hard to see in the distance. I've just learned to deal with it by playing in 3rd person when playing any ArmA related game.

Edited November 3, 2016 by HarmattanAssassin

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

(I have been inflammatory on this subject in the past but I will use the most neutral language possible that I can to present the facts as I know them regarding DayZ as someone who has been informed of the development path from day 1 and has rarely missed a release, status report, or nearly any mainstream official content.)

Fact 1: 3PP was put into ARMA2 labelled as EASY MODE, and as I understand it was only in the mod because it was a leftover from ARMA 2.

Fact 2: 3PP will never leave.

Fact 3: Most of the major devs on DayZ who are vocal in social media have urged the player base time and time again to try the immersion of 1PP because it is far superior and helps bring the game closer to a survival game in ambiance.

Fact 4: ALL OF YOUR DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW TO PVP IS ALMOST A COMPLETE WASTE.

NEW PLAYER CONTROLLER, STAMINA, WEIGHT, CONTAMINATED ZONES, INFECTED EVERYWHERE?

The game, on a wholesale level, is going to change DRASTICALLY.

99% of players are not really prepared for this mentally, or otherwise.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by ☣BioHaze☣

[-Gews- 7443]

19 minutes ago, ☣BioHaze☣ said:

Fact 1: 3PP was put into ARMA2 labelled as EASY MODE, and as I understand it was only in the mod because it was a leftover from ARMA 2.

That's probably because of ARMA 2's offline campaigns and coop servers focussed on fighting AI, who can't use the 3rd person camera to peek back, and of course the 3rd person camera makes it easier to use ARMA 2's various flying machines and armored vehicles.

Not really applicable to multiplayer PVP. As it gets easier for one, it gets harder for another.

[exwoll 255]

So why then just don't label all 3pp servers as Easy ones and 1pp as Normal? With the Hardcore title going to no crosshairs?

I mean why call Hardcore a POV that's Normal in every shooter out there? :) 

Edited November 4, 2016 by exwoll