1st person perspective only (Message to devs)

[cs_wolf 30]

All I see in 3rd person is unbalanced gameplay, something this game (specially a permadeath game) should not have.

Would the devs not consider experimental 1st person only and stable official servers 1st person only starting from 0.61 update and for the future? DayZ should be a first perspective game. I dont like seeing players looking over walls to get a jump on someone that cant even see them/dont know they are there.

Please DayZ devs, for the immersion and what makes DayZ great, make 1st person a design choice from this point forward.

Edited September 17, 2016 by cs_wolf

[QUAZIMOFO 275]

There already are 1PP servers. They are mostly empty as it is very unpopular. No one plays on them.

[philbur 476]

Unpopular might be the wrong word here....

I think you need to consider what it means to be in 3rd person versus 1pp. If immersion is your goal then 1pp will be your choice.

If adventuring with your buddies turns you on then 3pp is a great way to play the game.

Both have their merits. When the game has better feature content you will see a lot of the purists gravitate to 1pp servers and general PVP will probably stay mostly with 3pp. (in my opinion).

It is nice, actually, to have a playstyle I am not fond of eliminated from my server options by simply choosing which perspective I want.

[exwoll 255]

1 hour ago, QUAZIMOFO said:

There already are 1PP servers. They are mostly empty as it is very unpopular. No one plays on them.

I only play 1pp server and its full in peak hours as any other server. Had to spam the enter button for 15min a couple of times to get in :(

I would recommend DayZ Underground or DayZ OldSchool. 

DayZ is 1pp only, very well moderated (haven´t seen a single hacker or glitcher) and the people playing there is quite mature and rarely KOS you without a solid reason.

[Hicks_206 (DayZ) 4297]

Unfortunately, removing 3PP is not an option at this time.

That said, we do operate plenty of 1PP servers. Restricting experimental to 1PP only would mean we could miss an extensive amount of possible issues that are only present in 3PP.

I do have some plans to *try* and make 1PP more popular as we move closer to beta, but we'll have to see how that works out.

[nl 986]

I would not mind if the game was 1pp only but that said, I like 3pp when I play just the PVE aspect of the game, liking to see my gear, animations and so on. If I have to pvp I usually switch to 1pp any way because it helps with aiming, will abuse 3pp sometimes because, well, I can and my adversary uses it most likely against me.

[INomadZ 211]

I mostly play PVE so it doesn't matter if it's 3pp or 1pp for me. As others mentioned, I balance between 3pp and 1pp. Plus there are some 1pp servers and will be more of them in the future.

[Volcanogod 28]

While i personally only gravitate towards 1pp servers for some of the reasons OP stated, the argument over the perspectives is moot since the choice to join either servers is there. Both styles have their merits, i find 3pp to be enjoyable to watch when people are filming for their videos and 3pp also helps me get an idea of how concealed i am in certain terrain. 1pp is my preferred style, i want to know that if someone sees me their eyeballs are exposed and if i miss them peeping then its my fault for not having better awareness.

[-Gews- 7443]

3 hours ago, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

I do have some plans to *try* and make 1PP more popular as we move closer to beta, but we'll have to see how that works out.

*yay*

[emuthreat 2837]

3 hours ago, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

Unfortunately, removing 3PP is not an option at this time.

I do have some plans to *try* and make 1PP more popular as we move closer to beta, but we'll have to see how that works out.

I still think it would be an interesting experiment to see mow many players would be willing to overlook their disdain for 1pp, just for a chance to finally run around in a new build.

We certainly saw how many people were willing to put up with the severe server login issues to play .60 on experimental.  It probably wouldn't do much harm to the populations at this point.

I'll try to remain...  Cautiously Optimistic^TM

Edited September 17, 2016 by emuthreat

[Hicks_206 (DayZ) 4297]

11 minutes ago, emuthreat said:

I still think it would be an interesting experiment to see mow many players would be willing to overlook their disdain for 1pp, just for a chance to finally run around in a new build.

We certainly saw how many people were willing to put up with the severe server login issues to play .60 on experimental.  It probably wouldn't do much harm to the populations at this point.

I'll try to remain...  Cautiously Optimistic^TM

Keep in mind that while we are indie by the traditional definition, we're definitely one of the larger indies. Sometimes the big boss man makes a call, and sometimes the team is divided on opinions. I can't always just steam roll things because I want to.

Dean might have been able to, but that was a special situation.

[-Gews- 7443]

41 minutes ago, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

Keep in mind that while we are indie by the traditional definition, we're definitely one of the larger indies. Sometimes the big boss man makes a call, and sometimes the team is divided on opinions. I can't always just steam roll things because I want to.

Dean might have been able to, but that was a special situation.

Do you have any stats on the popularity of 3rd versus 1st person servers, public or private?

When I checked last February I found the ratio was about 20-1 in favor of 3rd person:

Quote

 

Total servers = 2,303
Total populated servers = 2,012
Total players = 20,157

Total 1st person servers = 130
Total 1st person populated servers = 103
Total 1st person players = 997

Percent 3rd person players = 95%
Percent 3rd person servers = 94%
Percent 3rd person populated servers = 95%

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by -Gews-

[Hicks_206 (DayZ) 4297]

No, I don't have stats in front of me - but I can say my gut feeling is 3PP is more popular. 
I'd say it is almost exclusively due to the path of least resistance.

If you give people the option for an easier experience, the *majority* of them will follow it.

[cs_wolf 30]

Thank you very much Brian for your time, feedback, input and thoughts on the topic. I very much look forward to DayZ's future <3 Best game and best gaming experiences are within DayZ.

Edited September 17, 2016 by cs_wolf

[-Gews- 7443]

13 minutes ago, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

No, I don't have stats in front of me - but I can say my gut feeling is 3PP is more popular. 
I'd say it is almost exclusively due to the path of least resistance.

If you give people the option for an easier experience, the *majority* of them will follow it.

I don't know if it's easier overall. It's definitely easier for the person who gets into their hidden position first, but the other guy, not so much. There is such a perception though. Many people say they feel "safer" in a 3rd person server (for me, the opposite). I don't understand why 3rd person is so much more popular, but I have some theories.

Most everyone played the DayZ mod in 3rd person, most videos were 3rd person, and going to standalone many either stuck or started with that. When one is used to having the camera flying high above and behind their character's head, it can feel cramped and claustrophobic switching to 1st person.

Also, 1st person camera can feel a bit jankier. For example, when running, the 1st person camera sways back and forth slightly (with head bob off). In 3rd person the camera remains motionless, it seems smoother.

There are also the people who like to see their character model, for whatever reason.

 

[Hicks_206 (DayZ) 4297]

To be clear, when I say it is easier - I mean even with the gains we have made trying to balance 3PP - from a tactical standpoint, it is MUCH easier to get the upper hand with 3PP.

[exwoll 255]

I saw a video on youtube a couple of months ago about a guy that made a script for Arma that made people you can't see in 1pp invisible in 3pp :) 

[BeefBacon 1185]

4 hours ago, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

To be clear, when I say it is easier - I mean even with the gains we have made trying to balance 3PP - from a tactical standpoint, it is MUCH easier to get the upper hand with 3PP.

I know this must have been asked before, and even then it's probably best left to one of the dev Q&As, but have you looked into... ray trace occlusion? I think that's what it's called; when stuff that you can't see in 1pp doesn't render in 3pp, as a means of eliminating 3pp wall-peeking. Assuming it was something that you could implement flawlessly without any bugs, is that something you'd do? I guess I mean that both in the personal sense (is that something that you in particular would like to see added?) and in the wider sense (would that be on the cards and actually have a chance of being implemented?)

I mostly play 3pp because other people mostly play 3pp - including the friends I play with (I don't think they've even tried 1pp). The wall-peeking annoys me, though, and I don't like having to do it just so I'm on an even keel with everybody else. If wall-peeking was somehow eliminated I would have no problem with 3pp, and I think that's a view shared by most people who prefer 1pp.

[Hicks_206 (DayZ) 4297]

3 hours ago, BeefBacon said:

I know this must have been asked before, and even then it's probably best left to one of the dev Q&As, but have you looked into... ray trace occlusion? I think that's what it's called; when stuff that you can't see in 1pp doesn't render in 3pp, as a means of eliminating 3pp wall-peeking. Assuming it was something that you could implement flawlessly without any bugs, is that something you'd do? I guess I mean that both in the personal sense (is that something that you in particular would like to see added?) and in the wider sense (would that be on the cards and actually have a chance of being implemented?)

I mostly play 3pp because other people mostly play 3pp - including the friends I play with (I don't think they've even tried 1pp). The wall-peeking annoys me, though, and I don't like having to do it just so I'm on an even keel with everybody else. If wall-peeking was somehow eliminated I would have no problem with 3pp, and I think that's a view shared by most people who prefer 1pp.

Ray cast occlusion might seem like it would work on a purely technical level, but on a gameplay level it can be unintuitive and confusing for a lot of users. I'd compare it to putting a shock collar on your pet to stop him/her from engaging in unwanted behavior. 

I do not like the idea of providing 3PP users a potentially confusing and frustrating gameplay experience in order to try and force them to use 1PP.

[cs_wolf 30]

Has the dev team discussed any improvements to the 1st person camera for the time until beta? Or anything you/they would like to improve?

[BeefBacon 1185]

On 18/09/2016 at 6:28 AM, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

Ray cast occlusion might seem like it would work on a purely technical level, but on a gameplay level it can be unintuitive and confusing for a lot of users. I'd compare it to putting a shock collar on your pet to stop him/her from engaging in unwanted behavior. 

I do not like the idea of providing 3PP users a potentially confusing and frustrating gameplay experience in order to try and force them to use 1PP.

Yeah, that makes sense - I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks for the reply.

I'm keen to see what you come up with to address the issues inherent in 3pp even if, as you said before, it's just to make 1pp more popular.

[exwoll 255]

1 hour ago, BeefBacon said:

 

I'm keen to see what you come up with to address the issues inherent in 3pp even if, as you said before, it's just to make 1pp more popular.

I think they have their hands tied in regard of this issue.

As stats given before show, it's a 20 to 1 ratio of 3pp preference in the game. Any thing that they do to "limit" the experience of this players will potentially damage their future sales. They're a business after all, and business only exist for one purpose. With the current situation of the game, it would be really unprovable that they will want to risk shooting themselves in the feet. (That's the reason of why most, if not all, breakthroughs in the gaming (or any) industry are made by indie developers/startups).

The only "solution" is an awesome hardcore mod that could offer a lot more than the vanilla in terms of experience, so that even the most stubborn 3pp player will surrender the pov to be part of it.

And I believe the same applies to every "unpopular" change in the game towards the simulator side, that can't be implemented because of financial reasons.

Edited September 19, 2016 by exwoll

[MrAerospace 87]

One thing that could cut down 3pp wall peeking is a good dynamic depth of field system based along the same ray casting design.

[Buakaw 274]

The only thing that would cut down wall peeking is player occlusion, as in players that are not visible from your characters eyes are not going to be visible in 3rd person either. This would create ugly popups of players, but it is still better than tactical abuse in a game as harsh as this.

A couple of points I would like to make regarding 1pp and whether it is futile to introduce it large scale at this point - or even an asinine business decision.

• Dayz has the biggest batch of sales behind it, arguably. Growth or a comparable spike in sales is not to be expected, but could occur when a new, really big milestone or publicity spike is reached. Current sales are (I would imagine) steady and not really influenced by the perspective in game. The perspective is something players come to learn of and get used and accustomed to over time. So to say it is an asinine business decision or maybe even impossible to change the players preference would imply that the entire current playerbase completely dislikes 1PP and is unwilling to change their playstyle or try out new things. Also they would eventually stop playing/revolt as well as prevent more players from buying the game (via negative reviews / bad word of the mouth).

So assuming that is indeed true (I doubt it), when you break down why that is the case, it can probably be attributed to a few reasons:

• 1. The choice is frankly nearly non-existant. Most populated servers are 3pp, most public servers are 3pp. Only a handful of popular 1pp hives exist. The ratio is 20:1. Literally only 5 fucking percent of servers are 1PP.
• 2. As Hicks said, people choose the path of least resistance. They also get accustomed to the comfort and additional tactical safety 3pp grants. The meta starts revolving entirely around this.
• 3. Wonky animations, sync errors, physics and controls make 3pp indeed more of a breeze to use. Also speaking of which, the amount of stances etc is miserable, especially when compared to Arma. But these are expected to get fixed eventually.

Based on that, I think it is relatively safe to say that, once 3. is fixed - which is just a matter of time- , 1. and 2. could be looked at, which is a matter of the devs taking action.

•  You start by breaking down the expectations and norms of the users. For example calling 1PP Standard and 3PP Softcore. This will prevent new players from thinking that 3PP is the standard for this game and manifesting that mindset. Also it will make older players wonder.
•  Public server distribution will be changed from the current (I guessed but it seems fairly accurate..) 90% 3PP / 10% 1PP to something like 60% 1PP / 40% 3PP for example. This will tackle the issue of lack of choices as well as introduce "hardened" veterans to a new perspective on Dayz - both literally and figuratively I think. But a message need to be sent and options need to be there.
• Given that the aforementioned flaws in "3." are fixed and the amount of content and things to do is much greater, using 1PP would oberall be a much more pleasureable experience, which in theory should not hurt sales and active playerbase at all, if anything, quite the contrary.

Just my little brainstorming on the topic. I am curious to hear what you guys think.

 

 

[sobieski12 835]

On 9/17/2016 at 11:11 AM, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

Unfortunately, removing 3PP is not an option at this time.

That said, we do operate plenty of 1PP servers. Restricting experimental to 1PP only would mean we could miss an extensive amount of possible issues that are only present in 3PP.

I do have some plans to *try* and make 1PP more popular as we move closer to beta, but we'll have to see how that works out.

I agree, at this stage it would do more damage than good. 

As for making it more popular, I don't really see why players would give up the advantage that 3pp offers versus 1pp.