Dealing with the frustration

[SirEpicTickles 19]

I wonder how would gaming studios react if the banks would tell them regarding the money received from us: "You will receive them when you will receive them!"

[c4p 30]

6 hours ago, S3V3N said:

That's true, but partially that is, because SC is so successful in crowdfunding and social media. They are watched more closely, but they are also quite efficient with their updates. Star Citizen announces a ship, then you can see it in the hangar, then you can use its buttons and turrets, then you can fly it. Imho that's a way better development model than showing videos of something that still is under work a year later. Small, efficient steps are better than big words.

Hey @S3V3N, normally I agree with you, but this point is invalid.

Yes, the devs from SC have better communications, which I really appreciate, but there is a huge reason they can communicate in this detail with their customers. The players are paying for this informations. I wrote it before somewhere here on the forums. Thousands of people paying 10$ or 20$ per month, over years! just for the infos. I bet, if they wouldn't have the subscribers, we wouldn't get that much and detailed infos.

The ships in SC aren't made that fast. I think the only ship which was made really fast from concept to fly-ready was the Sabre, because they need it for Squadron42(SP). The Redeemer for example is 1,5 years hangar-ready and still not fly-ready. Or other ship which were sold for 600$ or more are still not ready, not one of them. Also they have a team of more than 300 people, just for Squadron42 and Star Citizen. They can share all assets, animations, vehicles and stuff, it's the same universe.

DayZ, TKOM, Arma3 are all different. You can't use the same models, animations and so on for these different games. Do we really know how many people are developing DayZ? Maybe Bohemia shares people between the games (Arma3, Take on Mars and Dayz) e.g. the sound guy, coders, etc. but pure speculation here! There are three big games, two in EA and one still in development with many improvements.

TKOM should become a very small game, "NASA"Simulator, where you can send drones to the moon and mars and explore it. Now we have SP+MP both with manned mission, where you can build your own base with life support, horticulture and what-not on moon/mars.

Again, I don't know if employees were shared between the games, but this COULD be a reason why things are delayed, but pure speculation.

Overall, I'm not that happy with the development of DayZ, too atm. But as I have nearly no understanding of developing a game, like nearly everyone of us players, I can't tell you wants wrong. Only the devs can with better communication.

Sadly, the tweet from yesterday "it's coming sooner than folks think" is a bad example of communication with the community.

 

 

[igor-vk 909]

18 hours ago, redmantab said:

 

As a 37 year old Dad in Newport Beach California that still does most of my multiplayer gaming with the same old childhood friend (38 with kids also) .....

 

Best post ever!!!

[Deathlove 2286]

18 hours ago, redmantab said:

.my kids could make these zombies move better.

 

Im pretty sure your kids couldn't no offense. They probably would break them and make them even worse.

[igor-vk 909]

New render looks awesome, totaly worth waiting!!!

http://imgur.com/rQNO4UI

[Whyherro123 2283]

1 hour ago, igor-vk said:

New render looks awesome, totaly worth waiting!!!

http://imgur.com/rQNO4UI

You know, this might be just me, but I am having difficulty determining if you are serious or not.

[-Gews- 7443]

49 minutes ago, Whyherro123 said:

You know, this might be just me, but I am having difficulty determining if you are serious or not.

Looks pretty good to me.

[Whyherro123 2283]

30 minutes ago, -Gews- said:

Looks pretty good to me.

1) That is, quite clearly, a character from the mod.

2) The background (plants in the foreground, trees, and clouds in the background) looks like a real picture.

I am willing to bet money that it is a fake, unless the devs are using mod resources to test the new renderer.

[-Gews- 7443]

1 minute ago, Whyherro123 said:

1) That is, quite clearly, a character from the mod.

2) The background (plants in the foreground, trees, and clouds in the background) looks like a real picture.

I am willing to bet money that it is a fake, unless the devs are using mod resources to test the new renderer.

I'm having difficulty determining whether you're serious about me being serious (^_-)

[igor-vk 909]

I was digging trough old dayz mod screen shots, remembering days when my friends wanted to play dayz with me. Character is from mod, picture was taken with 2 megapixels phone camera. 

Area totally looks like Chernarus.

I really wish they hury up and give us at least half playable experimental soon. 

[skydotnet 0]

Im playing this game for 1 Year now, with little breaks included, i also do a kind of indirect advertising in form of streaming the game. I like it and i want it to succeed and to be a finished 1.0 Version later to play the shit out of it.

But... im frustrated, and wondering...

Wondering about the development process itself, and how the deployment is managed.
Lets put aside the content updates and focus on the most frustrating things a player in the dayz world can face: Glitchers, Dupers and Hacker.

You can say: "Dude its early access, face it and fk off", i only partly agree to that, theres is something like the law of action and reaction that applies to everything in this world, even dayz.
What i can see in the last months is an insane increase of friends in my steam list who simply doesnt want to play dayz anymore because of the latest game breaking bugs.
Thats a Reaction. An unneccessary reaction that bohemia could prevent.

Dont get me wrong, its not the bugs themselves, its the time they are not being fixed now, we are all aware that there can happen horrible stuff in early access, but what is the excuse for letting that in the game forever (it feels like that) instead of at least picking that little portion of the development process and fix that?

Isnt there any chance to change the deployment process so you can deploy fixes of absolutely frustrating and "Ragequit" bugs that really really really hurt the community and the amount of players?
What has to happen that Bohemia pushs out a so called "hotfix" for something?

Again: im not talking about performance, content or little bugs ppl can live with, im talking about stuff that makes people HATE the game and quit it forever.
A game should be enjoyable in the majority of time, no matter if its early access or not, remember: people play games to forget about reallife, to have fun and to take a dive into another world.
Thats why (in other communities) devs/studios who fix highly negative impacting bugs fast are like HEROES for the gaming community.
And yes, there is a difference between a "game concept" and "early access", and dayz is not the first, its the second, never forget about that.

It should be: A enjoyable game in the majority of time with little amounts of times where players say "ah, time for a break until they fixed this 'n that crazy bug", i think 99% of the playerbase is aware that stuff can go wrong in early access.

This is also not about sales quantity or money or the overall development speed, its about the current actual gaming community. This game lives from its player count, the lower the player count, the lower the fun (the toxic players/trolls/hackers are most times the last who leave the sinking boat...).

I'm just really sad, frustrated and disappointed and i feel forsaken. Not raging, just sad :(
Also sad about the already wasted potential of this game.

I hoipe no one will flame me for that post, its just imho.

[SirEpicTickles 19]

@skydotnet I feel you as I have like most of dayz players my frustrations regarding the development of this product.

If you ask me, since the start, this project was badly managed. This is not the devs fault as they are just the "do-ers" in most cases. Even tough a very innovative and good developer, Dean Hall was not the best person to manage the decisions for dayz. As a matter of fact, most technical persons are not really good managers and vice-versa. You can't have it all, can you? :)

Regarding bugs, I think the project is in a state that it's not worthy to fix bugs on the current renderer, but concentrate all effort on the new one.

Just think about it like having a limited number of beans and 2 pots and wanting to cook boiled beans. After you put water in the first pot, you realize it's actually a frying pan. It would take you ages and it would be very hard to boil beans in a frying pan so why put any beans in it anymore?

And last but not the least, money is everything! Gaming is a business and I can assure you that if this project would get in a financially negative state, it would be discarded in the state that it is.

[Jscaff 0]

Honestly

Edited May 22, 2017 by Jscaff

[pilgrim* 3514]

5 hours ago, Jscaff said:

Honestly, before anyone releases a game, exspecialy in early access is First thing first is Shooting someone should register, not put a full fking clip into someone with perfect accuracy and he doesnt even die, my internet is always top notch, This fact alone has brought the game down to its feet, 3thousand players only around the world playing, thats a joke im starting to think i might have to uninstall it and play it when its fully out

In some ways this is a difficult game (ok, that's what I say - let's see who agrees or disagrees).  DayZ is unusual. There are things about the gameplay you just have to lean from experience, because a lot of it it doesn't work the same way as other games. This is deliberate stuff that is in the game on purpose (not just 'glitches' and mistakes).  Some folk say DayZ is easy (too easy) but you might notice those players have usually been around for a while. One thing for sure - this game can get people very excited very quickly, and some go nutz-and-crazy and all-riled-up inside a week of playing DayZ.
If you take a moment and find out about it (there's plenty to find out) you might decide it's a great game. - But no insult Jscaff.. some players blow their tops from time to time. Sometimes they are right - and sometimes they just ran into a problem they didn't understand and they go postal anyway.

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by pilgrim*

[nebuuuu 11]

My way of dealing with the "frustration"?

The first 2 years, i`ve read almost every article at my sources of gamingnews etc.
Watched alot of Streams, YouTube (jackfrags, Frankie, Silo, Septic Falcon, ...), played alot with and without friends (who got frustrated easier).
With the time i`ve noticed or atleast had the feel, that something is going into the wrong direction or was missplanned. Like there was/is alot of timewasting or would be a better chance to use the ressources (...time!), to push the game forward.

Idk, i lost the big hope step by step and just looked into the forum and 1-2 websites to inform me with the latest threads, updates.
One of the things which dont let me go was the developer-board with the work in progress screens/videos/sounds...like the new zombiesounds etc.

After i dont played Dayz for a couple of month now, i am not "frustrated" anymore, but yeah...(like i wrote in the other thread) disappointed, if it wouldn`t be a huge step in the next 1-2 years of DayZ SA.
That`s my way to deal with this "problem", which i don`t think is a real problem compared to reallife things. ;-)

But....i really wish and hope für Hicks & Co., that they are/still be focused on the core of a zombieapocalyptic surivival game with different kinds of ways to play and individual styles for the playerlook, weapons, bases etc.

That`s it - Bye :)

[Binkie 0]

On 3/27/2016 at 4:05 AM, sneakydude said:

For all those that forget. Right or wrong, you still agree to this statement.

WARNING: THIS GAME IS EARLY ACCESS ALPHA. PLEASE DO NOT PURCHASE IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO ACTIVELY SUPPORT DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME AND ARE PREPARED TO HANDLE WITH SERIOUS ISSUES AND POSSIBLE INTERRUPTIONS OF GAME FUNCTIONING.

Really???  I think someone misses the point of this thread...

Sneakydude...Are you going to quote the same "Early Access" disclaimer next year...or 2-3 years from now...when we are still in early access alpha?  Are you willing to type that crap with a straight face then???

For reference, we are about 2.5 years years into it (alpha) now.

 

 

[SirEpicTickles 19]

I am sure all the dibs are now on .60. This will be the patch that will revive the whole dayz concept, or kill it as it is. Probably this is why the managers of this project are delaying this patch so much, as they are aware this is their last chance to convince the people that the game has a future. If they fail with this patch, nothing they will do further on will matter.

[Jex 1104]

On 12/04/2016 at 0:49 PM, S3V3N said:

I wouldn't go that far. I think the game is there, but they now need to pour a shitload of manhours into it to make it work. Until the renderer is in, there should be 24/7 shifts working on this. When Bratislava sleeps, the outsourced parts of the studio need to work. Relentlessly! Because what we have now is a joke, and I doubt that Bohemia wants to be on the other end of it. It's clearly the coding that's holding things back now. And the crazy thing is that all the plans for Dayz sound great. Netcode/Hitbox improvement, human IK with blended animation, new renderer. All of it sounds great. All of the big engines I can think of already use comparable systems, so if anything this is an ongoing upgrade. But it simply takes too long. Without proper information we will never know how long. And I know this is difficult to calculate, but any producer can give a decent estimate, how long things should take. I feel like in the past this was arbitrary information, based on hope more than fact. I want facts about the development. I know there are blockers for the renderer release: how many and where? what's the biggest problem? In the future updates, this kind of info should be included and if they get it done right, the new updates should be much more in-depth, or at least more accurate than before. But these updates need to come in regularly and faster than in the past half year. The last proper update was in November (I think) and that is too long a time without information on why there is a massive delay at all. "Technical Problems, please stand by"

Like I said - in huge parts the way this engine is prioritized over the actual game development is to blame. Can't make the game without the engine, but every new feature is a setback at first. It needs documentation and experimentation. Things that take patience and time in a development that is always trying to catch up to its goals and never manages. Tough development, but that can't be helped now. I just wish they knew how to resolve the problems on the coding side. And they should probably correct their ambitions for a Q2 release. 

Can you honestly tell me if the medical/survival system has been improved upon since a year ago? The same for hunting (remember they brought in a dedicated team for that as well as...) Zombies, what's going on with them after a year?

[GuyRandomMan 54]

On 3/24/2016 at 9:32 AM, S3V3N said:

This was actually my reply to a thread that has now been closed, but hopefully you find something true in there for you. I'm not a fanboy or yay-sayer. I'm a supporter of the game, and find myself facing frustration about the development at every wait for a patch. I might tell myself to get a life. Yet, for those of us, who also take gaming way too seriously, here is a breakdown of how I'm being split-minded but hopeful for Dayz's future:

Probably the only thing I can add to it is to think of a studio like Bohemia as a family and a studio like ~ Ubisoft as something like a factory. There are people who like working in a factory. There are 3D modelers (in the car industry) that just do lights or doors all day. And they know every nook and cranny about their CAD-work. For the outsider and creative artist this is totally boring, yet it is specialised work as part of a bigger workflow. In game development we often see similar facilitators to the workflow.

Bohemia doesn't have that workflow much. It seems even most models they buy from freelancers. There is no concept artist at the start, then a modeler, then a skinner and texture artist; in Bohemia's philosophy one artist does it all. It's pretty oldschool, if you want so. But it isn't efficient on huge projects; this also explains why some of the older rifle models look like someone went over every edge with a piece of sandpaper, while in the newer models damage is balanced and in the right places. To have consistency in an artist-orientated work-flow is difficult; what if the artist gets ill, or doesn't do freelance any more? Then you get someone else and his models/textures look different...Imagine what would happen, if Dayz's main coder went away; he's probably the only one who knows the engine front to back, even though there are probably several coders. 

The good thing is this is not a problem with Dayz, because let's face it: all the models and art are generic and can be created from Photo-Reference. It's not an "artistic" game at all, which is why a factory-approach would really speed things up for Dayz. However, they are family and want to work like that. They let everyone be an artist, even though they are probably cursing about work and pay half the time. Despite all the rage, Dayz's community allows for artistry and is patient. Pull that stunt with, e.g. GTA and try saying: "yeah maybe next year we'll release" and you'll have a s h i t s t o r m. (I think something like that happened and there was an outrage over a few weeks delay).

---

Dayz will never be as successfull as GTA or Just Cause. It could have been though, but the way it is produced that's simply not an option. That's a disadvantage for Bohemia, and a slight disadvantage for us. Because we have to wait longer, but we get a game that came together through a concerted effort of artists, instead of a collaboration of executives. The artist is more valuable here than in a normal game development. The individual counts, the community counts. Would you even know who modeled a weapon for GTA? Would you care? It's a different thing altogether.

The more I think about it the more I believe we should thank the devs for not throwing the game to the wolves, early on. They could have milked the hype. We could easily be playing a mod ripoff with 3 DLC packs and pay-to-win perks by now. Someone didn't let that happen! (probably have to thank Mark Spanel for believing in Rocket's vision).

The problem I have - is that often it doesn't feel like they are giving it all. I don't expect them to bleed out over this, but sometimes I wonder, if tasks couldn't be done a wee bit faster. It sucks knowing all those features and waiting, waiting for them. I appreciate the devs are visiting the forums more, but I also think they should not get too emotionally invested over the comments. Of course we feel let down or plain bad when the patch of all patches turns out to be just another delay. That shit is called reality. You can spoon it out of the way 24/7 and that still won't make the game happen any faster; rather the opposite. It would be awesome if at some point they announce something and the next week it happens. I don't want to learn about features anymore when they are months away from becoming a part of the game. 

 

In my opinion, even if it takes Dayz forever to release when it does it will be amazing, it will be perfect for us, the people that stuck around and waited it through. Would you rather them take forever and release an amazing game or release it early and release a half made game with hundreds of bugs.

[Noctoras 409]

5 hours ago, GuyRandomMan said:

In my opinion, even if it takes Dayz forever to release when it does it will be amazing, it will be perfect for us.

I am still amazed, how people manage to stay in that imaginary dreamworld for prolongued periods of time. Stockholm syndrome possibly? Some people can be vocal critics, but given a little cookie in a status report they start to be the most reverent believers for some days again before the cycle repeats itself. A perfect game? in 2025? With 2,361 guns but still no coherent medical system? It might yet become a good game, although I do not believe in it anymore. But perfect? A real sandbox? Never.

And aiming for a polished product in the end does not exclude buggy alphas beforehand. This is what Alpha and Experimental should be there for. Obviously currently Experimental is not experimental, since loot bugs and other typical experimental "features" are now being handled as blockers for release.

[Rags! 1966]

36 minutes ago, Noctoras said:

And aiming for a polished product in the end does not exclude buggy alphas beforehand. This is what Alpha and Experimental should be there for.

And aiming for a polished product in the end does not exclude buggy alphas beforehand.

This is what Alpha and Experimental should be there for.

...

I literally laughed aloud at these two consecutive sentences.

[philbur 476]

I just spent the day with a former co-worker in the IT industry. He just came back from the CR and also Romania where a few teams were working on some modules for their company's product offering.

From his perspective the production/development houses over there are now a complete joke. There is almost zero oversight and because their countries are so 2nd world it becomes a case of herding cats in order to get a team on-task and up to speed.

Throw in the degree of separation between leads and teams and you have the perfect combination for creating a low morale, low interest, and apathetic workforce. Is this happening at the DayZ SA office? Where are the deliverables? Pinned on a wall in the bathroom or plastered on a huge wall in front of them? Are they being paid for milestones or are they just salaried employees? And most importantly, I think, who is their Gabe Newell? Who is their Chris Roberts? I was sceptical of the way Hicks was going about the roadmap two years ago and now I am sure about it.

I imagine the dev team in general could benefit from a different management style...but who knows except them, I suppose.

This afternoon just gave me pause for thought on the subject of remote coders and artists...that's all. Brian was not really a Project Leader before DayZ SA, was he? I know he was responsible for a mod of the Mod..right? I am trying not to assign blame to him for the debacle that is DayZ SA Alpha per-se....but I think there should have been a conscious effort to ensure the fans/subscribers better informed and it must be impossible to handle both roles with the attention to detail and effectiveness that they require.

I always thought he was over-extending his cycles...maybe it's time to bring in someone else to shoulder the burden of getting milestones ticked off.

So...regarding the OP...I am "Dealing with the Frustration" by simply playing the builds and speculating on how I would do it if it was MY game.

The insight into development has definitely opened my eyes a bit...but now I am wondering just how poorly run the software development houses are in the East Bloc....and also wondering if the game would have been better off coming out of Montreal, or another major game studio....curious.

"And aiming for a polished product in the end does not exclude buggy alphas beforehand."----- Yeah it does, sorry to say...because in the process of development you should have better QA, better milestones, better oversight, better feedback, and more accountability.

The "Alpha" should not be used as an excuse...not anymore, really. The game is sort of an oddball now...with such a scattered mix of content that still has not been "completed" that I find it hard to believe there are specific deliverables being set for the team or else we would start seeing features added that are functioning and fairly sorted out. The biggest reason I am staying optimistic is because 0.60 is "supposed" to be the beginning of a proper foundation for the game and I am eager to see how progress goes AFTER the EXP goes to Stable.

I should not have to say this...but...Fingers Crossed.

[Noctoras 409]

10 hours ago, philbur said:

"And aiming for a polished product in the end does not exclude buggy alphas beforehand."----- Yeah it does, sorry to say...because in the process of development you should have better QA, better milestones, better oversight, better feedback, and more accountability.

I was actually aiming for a different statement - maybe language bareer, English ain't my first one / mother tongue (wise Rags probably will find a way to make fun of some mistake in this post as well... well, good on him...) . I meant that some of the currently named blockers should not be blockers for exp. release, since buggy patches are basically constituting an experimental branch. If only polished versions are published, you would not need an exp. branch.

As for dev communication, a lot has been said about it being insufficient and / or inadequate and it definitely has been. I think not even the devs doubt that, if they ask themselves. Development isn't going smooth, I think that much is indeed obvious by now, but I don't want to join in in the rumour mill.

 

11 hours ago, Rags! said:

 

I literally laughed aloud at these two consecutive sentences.

 

Well, congratulations for having a good laugh on a non native speaker I guess. May the language superiority be with you.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Noctoras

[sneakydude 480]

On 4/27/2016 at 4:24 PM, Binkie said:

Really???  I think someone misses the point of this thread...

Sneakydude...Are you going to quote the same "Early Access" disclaimer next year...or 2-3 years from now...when we are still in early access alpha?  Are you willing to type that crap with a straight face then???

For reference, we are about 2.5 years years into it (alpha) now.

 

 

congrats on finding the forums, there is no point to this forum topic. it is labeled "Dealing with the frustration" I have my own, and i wont elaborate on anything past that point.

I too have to deal with the shitty development, just like the devs and the rest of this forum... So we will leave it there.

[philbur 476]

7 hours ago, Noctoras said:

I was actually aiming for a different statement - maybe language bareer, English ain't my first one / mother tongue

 

OK...I respect your efforts in contributing to the forums especially because English might not be your first language. Well done and I will remember to consider this.