If you want an evenly balanced game, you must remove NV from it!

[rickyriot 1009]

So here's the thing. I've been playing DayZ since the early days of the mod and the one thing that is massively OP is the NV (night vision). It always has been and it always will be. We have had a decent period of time where NV weren't included but now they are back.

I appreciate that in the "real world" NV is a thing, and while DayZ certainly caters for realism there has to be balancing for it to be an enjoyable game to play. There is no other single item in the game that has such a detrimental affect on balancing. Not a gun, a vehicle or any other loot item.

Let me explain:
-  In the daylight you both have the advantage of seeing each other. Even if you are a lowly spawn and you are facing a massively geared player, while you won't be able to kill them you will be able to evade them. It all comes down to skill and tactics.
-  In the night time however, whomever controls the NV controls the spice. It's as simple as that. When facing off against someone at night if you don't have NV and they do, then you have no opportunity for evasion as they will see everything you do, while you cannot see them.

What is the point of BI spending all this time and effort to make the night cycle as relevant as the day one if they allow such an imbalance within it? I've raised this issue before, not necessarily here, but relating to the mod and SA and those opposing my view tend to give 3 main retorts, so allow me to address them to save people's time.

1) "git gud" - this isn't about ability, fighting someone at night without NV when you have them is shooting fish in a barrel, there is no sport or ability required.
2) "get your own goggles" - I mean, sure, but that's just an "arms race" mentality. If someone is OP suggesting everyone else is OP doesn't advance the game in the slightest.
3) "don't play night" - again, sure, but what is the point of the game if you set 50% of it's content (depending on day/night cycle of course) unavailable to your userbase? The new nigh time anti-gamma "overlay", for example, is utterly wasted.

 

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. I understand why they are in the game, and I understand why people may wish to use them in the game, but ultimately they hugely imbalance almost "half" the game.

 

[IMT 3190]

I think they should stay in the game, especially for balance purposes. Yes, you're reading it correctly, for balance purposes.

Having that said, they should be rare as fuck otherwise there isn't really any balance. Those who search and keep their character alive long enough should be rewarded and have an advantage over those who don't give a crap about their character's life. That's the balance aspect which I'm talking about.

But removing them because someone can get an advantage over someone is ridiculous. It even applies to the real world, where someone with NVG would have a massive advantage against someone with no NVG. Does the world need to get rid of NVG now because it gives an unfair advantage? The USA has the biggest military budget in the entire world, do they need to cut that budget because it's not fair for other countries? The logic why you want to remove the NVG doesn't make any sense.

This can be applied to so many things. Cars should be removed because it gives you an unfair advantage in movement speed. Guns should be removed because you have an unfair advantage over someone with no gun. At this rate, you'll literally end up with a running simulator.

Edited June 12, 2019 by IMT

[rickyriot 1009]

48 minutes ago, IMT said:

Having that said, they should be rare as fuck otherwise there isn't really any balance.

 

That would be my first thought, however we have seen that this simply doesn't balance the game out. People will simply move to another server within the group, grab the NV from there. Even if you physically restricted NV to just a few per server (so no hopping and brining in gear from elsewhere - not sure that is even possible) all you do is reduce the pool of people using them but you don't remove the actual problem and, if anything, you acerbate it. Now NV goggles have an even higher value both to own and to trade as they would be rare. Yet they would remain massively OP.

Restricting them sounds like a good idea in theory but sadly, and as we have seen in both the mod and SA, it just doesn't work in practice.

 

48 minutes ago, IMT said:

But removing them because someone can get an advantage over someone is ridiculous. It even applies to the real world, where someone with NVG would have a massive advantage against someone with no NVG. Does the world need to get rid of NVG now because it gives an unfair advantage? The USA has the biggest military budget in the entire world, do they need to cut that budget because it's not fair for other countries? The logic why you want to remove the NVG doesn't make any sense.

This can be applied to so many things. Cars should be removed because it gives you an unfair advantage in movement speed. Guns should be removed because you have an unfair advantage over someone with no gun. At this rate, you'll literally end up with a running simulator.

I'm sorry, I don't want to sound inflammatory but the the logic of that argument is flawed while it doesn't address the actual issue at hand. For a start having a car and not having a car is in no way comparable to being able to see and not being able to see. It's really odd that you even thought that was a similar case. Seeing is pretty much fundamental to the game and if one can and the other can't it's not even close to the idea that one person can walk and the other can drive - not least we start discussing how much effort it takes to get a vehicle moving to begin with. NV googles, you pick them up and put them on, that's it. Oh, and a battery, but still that's it. From that point on you are the one-eye'd king in the land of the blind. A car? Jinkies that's about an hour's work collecting all the pieces and when you do, you end up being a bigger target. There is nothing stealthy about a car, you hear it coming. NV goggles make no noise and require little effort. Same applies for guns. Sure the person with the AK at range clearly has an advantage over someone with a shotgun, but the difference here is that you will see that the person has an AK and that they are at a distance. You can work out the pros and cons regarding engagement. In the dark and without NV there is none of that. It's just blind luck (pun sort of intended!) whether you run into them, whereas they could track your every step while being able to see every exposed weapon you are carrying and/or if you are rocking a large enough backpack to stash other weapons.

As for the real world military argument, it's just not relevant here. DayZ is a game, it's not real world. A game that requires balance. I could mention the US's massive military advantage in Korea or Vietnam, that didn't really help them and they ended up "losing" both wars which simply demonstrates that even if you apply the "my gun is bigger than yours" in real life engagement it's not certainty the chips fall where you want them to. Not that I wish to trigger any vets of those campaigns. The individual soldiers were not to blame for those failures.

 

Just to clarify, I am not requesting the removal of other items. It's just the nature of the NV and the overwhelming advantage they provide over those who do not have them that is at the heart of the issue. In regard to other imbalances, such as not having enough weapons in comparison to your opposition, that is a choice you make. Engage or not. With the NV the choice isn't yours which makes them "unfair".

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by rickyriot

[cirkular 178]

Maybe it could help the balance if they were extremely rare or short lived due to being found mainly in bad condition (let's say). It should be impossible to fix it. I think given the scenario that it's realistic for it to be in the game, but I'm not sure if it's good for the game itself or should they be removed then. If the nights were dark but still possible to navigate through landscape, then okay.

But again, it seems to me that this is one of the incentives for players who found them to play even when the night falls. So they can go on a "hunt" 24/7. I mean, the common thinking is if it's such a radical situation as in Dayz, you'd want to have a shelter to stay safe over night and move around and do things in the daylight. If you have NV, the options are more open, especially when solo. You wouldn't have to avoid your favorite server when you have time to play just because it's night time currently and nights are unplayable for you and you don't have the NV. There's more than a couple of factors for both sides.

[rickyriot 1009]

8 minutes ago, cirkular said:

.. it's realistic for it to be in the game, but I'm not sure if it's good for the game itself ..

Yeah, this is what it all really comes down to.

I don't think anyone would argue they don't belong in a game like this, I just feel the advantage they give tips the balance too much.

 

 

 

[Mookie (original) 799]

1 hour ago, rickyriot said:

Yeah, this is what it all really comes down to.

I don't think anyone would argue they don't belong in a game like this, I just feel the advantage they give tips the balance too much.

 

 

 

I take your points here (not that I really play vanilla much any more). But there is something deeper about the fundamental structure of the game going on (whereby people server hop, "official" servers cease to exist, etc).

Beware of a kludge solution such that wearing NVGs illuminates everything in 100m in an eerie greenish glow....

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

NVG's are a bandaid for poor night play. I've removed them from my types.xml.

[-Gews- 7443]

DayZ is unbalanced but the night vision goggles are particularly so, and I think they don't really add much of value to the game either, just lets you kill essentially helpless people. Apart from that famous "Predator" trolling video. My solution would be to find the goggles during the day and pwn scrubs at night.

They removed the L85 thermal sight from the mod for balance purposes and the night vision goggles are arguably worse than this, if the target can't see you at all.

They could "improve" them by making them much worse: can't aim down sights (use an IR laser instead), grainy, limited range, etc... 

On the other hand, it's DayZ. And that Predator situation will always be cool.

[emuthreat 2837]

On 6/12/2019 at 6:12 AM, rickyriot said:

whomever controls the NV controls the spice

Suggestion for a fix: Add sandworms.

But seriously though...

Rubber, such as that found in car tires is an IR absorbing material, as with "carbon black" pigmented neoprene.  There ARE NVG countermeasures available, which could be seamlessly implemented with the addition of wetsuits which could be worn to make the player invisible to NVGs, and also allowing them to be cut into strips and made into a "night ghillie."
In this manner, if the first shot doesn't hit and kill you, there is a chance you can find cover and drop non-essential gear to make the switch to your more stealthy wetsuit, or throw on a IR cloak.

The IR emitters of NVGs can also be detected by a passive RF sensor calibrated to the correct wavelengths, and would be conspicuously visible to a handheld thermal imaging sensor; but that last one just introduces a new problem...

Maybe a good fix is to have a passive IR detector wristband that would light up and beep if someone is scoping you with any NV?

Edit:  carbon soot from a poorly tuned oil lamp or acetylene torch would also make a temporary "black hole" in the NVG's field of detection.  Haven't tested it in game, but wouldn't a flare REALLY hurt to look at through those things?

Edited June 14, 2019 by emuthreat

[aux7 234]

1 hour ago, emuthreat said:

The IR emitters of NVGs can also be detected by a passive RF sensor calibrated to the correct wavelengths, and would be conspicuously visible to a handheld thermal imaging sensor; but that last one just introduces a new problem...

Maybe a good fix is to have a passive IR detector wristband that would light up and beep if someone is scoping you with any NV?

I think you are confusing the civilian "night vision cameras" with military.

the civilian "night vision cameras" use infrared light to illuminate an area.

military night vision sights work by image enhancement. They are totally passive.

military thermal vision sights work on thermal infrared emitted by the target. They are totally passive

For night vision the main answer is to behave at night as you would in the day, stay in cover.

Thermal vision is a whole other problem, they were great things to play with but meant you had no chance if someone had them.

[ZomboWTF 527]

DayZ was never about balance, it's a game where your gear defines how much power you have

if you don't like NVGs, i am sure there is a server were there is as little night gameplay as possible

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

On 6/12/2019 at 3:12 PM, rickyriot said:

So here's the thing. I've been playing DayZ since the early days of the mod and the one thing that is massively OP is the NV (night vision). It always has been and it always will be. We have had a decent period of time where NV weren't included but now they are back.

 

Finally someone who sees the damage done by NV to balanced night gameplay. I seriously thought I'm the only one. I agree with all you said. You do know we will be completely ignored, do you? The devs are definitely not above making this bad call.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

On 6/12/2019 at 4:43 PM, IMT said:

 The USA has the biggest military budget in the entire world, do they need to cut that budget because it's not fair for other countries?

I really didn't expect the 'our game should suck like the real world' argument from you, IMT. One thing is striving for the feeling of authenticity, quite another is bringing stuff into game without thinking how it affects gameplay and player behaviour.

It's like with clothing and shoe sizes. The devs decided against introducing them, because that would be unnecessary, time-consuming, silly and/or boring. 'One size fits all' has nothing to do with realism, all to do with the fact that it's a game and at some point you just need to stop trying to mimic the real world, because otherwise there would be no reason to play video games.

We've got ICBMs in the real world, would you like them in DayZ? One payload destroys most of the server, kills most/all players on it and makes it unplayable by 2050. Come on, just one warhead per server! Still not convinced? Look at your arguments against ICBMs and see how they have nothing to do with 'realism'.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

On 6/12/2019 at 7:16 PM, cirkular said:

Maybe it could help the balance if they were extremely rare or short lived due to being found mainly in bad condition (let's say). It should be impossible to fix it.

That's like introducing the option to kill everyone on the server with ICBMs or napalm airstrike, but then say you can do it only once per month, and on a Wednesday. It's a band-aid for a needlessly self-inflicted wound.

On 6/12/2019 at 7:16 PM, cirkular said:

. You wouldn't have to avoid your favorite server when you have time to play just because it's night time currently and nights are unplayable for you and you don't have the NV. There's more than a couple of factors for both sides.

I have no doubt that NV will discourage players from nighttime even more. People will use NV mainly for two things: effortlessly picking off other helpless players, and preventing those players from getting their own NV. Which means you go to NV spawns only to find death from those who have essentially a hacking-tool advantage.

Of course, you could go there at day, but why bother if you can forget it all and simply stick to daytime servers? If it drives me away from the night, which I love, what would be the reaction of more casual players?

[McWendy 675]

You should be able to "blind" the nvgoggles wearing person. Obviously a chemlight wouldnt be strong enough, but a flare, laser, flashlight or even aan strobe would do the trick.

 

[cirkular 178]

4 hours ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

...

I like my ideas better

 

😄

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

32 minutes ago, McWendy said:

You should be able to "blind" the nvgoggles wearing person. Obviously a chemlight wouldnt be strong enough, but a flare, laser, flashlight or even aan strobe would do the trick.

 

And how would you know he's there in the first place? Assuming he camps and snipes and changes position? He's still the Predator in all contexts you can think of. And there was only one Dutch.

[aux7 234]

night vision goggles dont bother me, we have had a night vision sight that worked great for a long while now, Ive used it a lot. The difference is only ease of use.

As a disclaimer, I do not currently have any night vision goggles, or a night vision sight. Not even an M4 or an AKM . ..

Most times I die in daylight, last time to a camper with an M4

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by aux7

[McWendy 675]

1 hour ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

And how would you know he's there in the first place? Assuming he camps and snipes and changes position? He's still the Predator in all contexts you can think of. And there was only one Dutch.

I just came up with some possible counters. I say scrap them all together, but hey pvp is appearently what matters.

 

I just want my bow back 

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

5 hours ago, McWendy said:

I just came up with some possible counters. I say scrap them all together, but hey pvp is appearently what matters.

 

I just want my bow back 

Amen. Bows not goggles!

[drgullen 596]

I'm with IMT on this one.  NVGs should be in the game, but hard to find -- perhaps they should be restricted to spawning at heli crashes, for example.  As he said, you should be rewarded if you can keep your character alive long enough and if you know night is coming, you can make finding NVGs as perhaps your primary loot goal.  If you find them, sure, you have an advantage over those that don't have them.  It's the same as someone holding an AK is going to have an advantage over someone who has only looted a knife.  In reality, unless you're both freshies on the coast, it's rare that two players who encounter each other are ever balanced, whether it's day or night, one of them is usually going to have an advantage over the other just based on whatever loot is on them.

[FunkInYourTrunk 354]

wouldnt making all servers private and then making nvgs rare entirely solve the issue?  if they were hard to find and server hopping was impossible then the advantage they give a player wouldn't matter.  the player with the nvg would never engage as he would be too scared to end up losing the nvg that it took him 7 hours to find.  

as for the "I cant see and they can" argument, isnt this very similar to the advantage someone has when they have a good scope and you do not?  and scopes are everywhere.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

20 hours ago, FunkInYourTrunk said:

as for the "I cant see and they can" argument, isnt this very similar to the advantage someone has when they have a good scope and you do not?  and scopes are everywhere.

It's the nature of the advantage, not the existence of it. Nobody said here that all players in all situations should have equal playing field like in a boxing ring. It's strawman to suggest that.

Scopes works like better guns or gear - they give advantage, of course, but it's not shooting fish in a barrel. You still have to use your wits and you can be outsmarted. You don't have 'better sight' - you just have a scope, you need to bring it up to the eye to use it. Which has its situational drawbacks.

On the other hand, NVG negates the entire 'playing nighttime' thing. Right now night is balanced in the sense that all people need to rely on light sources, so your lamp is seen but you can see other lamps, too. And here, players can choose from among a bunch of tactical choices - torches illuminate a lot but also betray your position most, headtorches are stealthier but help less, etc.

All of this goes down the drain if you can clearly see everything without emitting any light yourself and without holding anything in hands. So you use that scope to get a drop on people who run around with torches in their hands. This is a kind of advantage that hackers enjoy. It's like having a jetpack or a power armor or a see-through walls capability. It affects the core mechanics around which human encounters revolve.

Hell, if NVGs are in, I want to get advanced DARPA projects like cloaking devices or liquid armor exoskeletons. They're gonna be commonplace anyway before DayZ hits 1.0.

[FunkInYourTrunk 354]

lol I see what ur saying I just dont see the need to get rid of them.  if they made them hella rare and got rid of server hopping then only made them spawn in dangerous areas with a very small chance almost no one would have them and anyone who did would be too afraid to engage anyone with them.  they would end up being used to hide more effectively

[rickyriot 1009]

Well this has gone better than I expected, like @Kirov (DayZ) I thought I was a lone voice in this. Pleasantly surprised that some have even gone as far as removing them from the server! Well done @Weyland Yutani (DayZ).

Thing is, even those who would support their inclusion accept that they do affect the game balance significantly to the extent they'd be happy to see them applied with caveats. That alone underlines the need for change.