Let’s talk about the night-time, shall we?

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

Awaiting BETA, I was wondering what your thoughts are on Chernarus by night. I’m asking especially players who actually enjoy playing nights and don’t go “meh” and crank up their gamma at the sunset. As we all (hopefully) cross fingers for the gamma exploit to be largely nerfed in 0.63, there are still two things I am concerned about – night vision and night sky.

1) Night vision

Let me start with one tremendous job the devs did, even though I’d prefer they didn’t. In DayZ, as in real life, I fucking hate that period of twilight-but-still-not-night, that dark-reddish-slowly-turning-black which takes place close to the sunset, especially in areas where the sun itself is not visible. My eyes are always sore and I need to squint, both in real and in game, so bravo for that! Fucking A for making me uncomfortable in a very familiar way.

But this bring me to the real problem, which is that the night vision in DayZ is way way off from what it should be. I mean, the basic ideas are there – that night is dark, that light sources are bright, that vision accommodates to darkness – but my feel is that this is all quite poorly implemented in a very unrealistic way.

First of all, people in RL actually need light sources at night. That’s what is meant by us being diurnal and all. Without light, very little can be accomplished and many areas (with obstacles or rough terrain) can’t be effectively traversed. While going dark has its perks (accommodation), there’s still a wide range of activities we still need light for. However in Dayz, even you don’t increase the gamma, light sources are actually harmful to your vision, and I don’t mean the accommodation issues. Basically what happens in Dayz, you see the light source and the light source only, and not that much of anything else. This applies to campfires, gas lamps, torches and chem lights – they all just make you (partially) blind. The gas lamps used to be better, but now they cast your shadow in front of you, so you have a dark area before you and a bright lamp to your right. Only the head torches and weapon/pistol flashlights are useful for illumination (still not like they should be). And the regular flashlights, the ones we used to spawn with, are fucking useless on 1pp as their circle of light is not even visible (it’s too close to your feet if I remember correctly).

The head torch is also unrealistically good in that it should be much more visible to other players than it is right now. If you don’t direct the light straight at their faces, the others may not even have a clue that there is a light source in use nearby, right until they notice the circle of light on the ground.

Basically, the best current solution is to forego light sources altogether and just rely on accommodation, even at dark cloudy nights when humans should see squat shit (remember that there are no city lights, so moonless nights should be really dark). DayZ night vision is actually quite forgiving here and after a while you can make out most of the loot on the ground bar plugs or pens. And that’s without the gamma trick or even checking the inventory tab too often.

And one final question – how many of you actually bother to turn the headlights on when driving? I don’t find them just useless, I find them detrimental to a smooth and safe drive.

Setting aside the separate issue if some actions should be unavailable without sufficient light (“stitch yourself up” or even reload), the nights should be darker while light sources should illuminate the immediate area more effectively. As it is right now, light sources illuminate only themselves, while everything else is even in deeper shadows.

2) Night sky

Ok, I understand that this is not going to make most players too excited, but I’m sure that I can’t be the only amateur astronomer here. While I really appreciate the effort to render the stars correctly (the Fallout games just put a random bunch of lights in the sky), the overall feel is just one of a poorly-made planetarium.

First of all, the relative brightness of stars is completely off, which makes many constellations very difficult to make out. In real life, it takes literally seconds to find Ursa Mayor or Cassiopeia in most conditions, while in Dayz it takes me long minutes or is even next to impossible. Ursa Mayor is currently “above” Ursa Minor and is largely out-of-range (I mean in the game), but the other day I was trying to outline Cassiopeia, even with the help of a star-gazing software (Stellarium) and failed after like 10 minutes (Cassiopeia is that distinct “W” shape, but good luck finding that in Chernarus). Really the only distinct features of the Dayz sky is Orion and the Pleiades (that small dense cluster of stars in Taurus). Can someone please tell me that I'm not the only player bothered by that?

We need to also remember that there would be no light pollution from city lights or air traffic, so there should be not only much more stars but a very distinct Milky Way, which the designers apparently forgot about.

And no guys, the stars do not become bigger dots on zoom, there are too distant for that.

I hesitate if I should even mention the five planets visible to naked eye, or if I should embarrass myself with admitting to a wet dream of gazing at deep space objects (nebulae, etc.) in the Dayz sky through scopes.

 

And what do you think, guys? How do you enjoy your nights and what would you like to see in the final release?

[Blafirelli 39]

51 minutes ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

Can someone please tell me that I'm not the only player bothered by that?

No, you are not the only one.

[pilgrim* 3514]

Well - you can find the Pole Star.. that's in the right place and necessary for gameplay.

IRL away from artificial lights in any open place without moon and under heavy cloud cover, there is ALWAYS enough ambient light to sew up a wound or reload a gun. But if you drop something small it might be damn difficult to find. Alternatively a dark nigh indoors or under forest & undergrowth, it may be VERY difficult to see anything at all. In any low-light situation IRL its often difficult to tell where eyesight and touch and hearing overlap to build your spatial awareness. But human beings are GOOD at this if they give themselves the chance.
 
Outdoors IRL there is always some visibility.  If you are habituated to, or coming from, artificial light it might take a while to get your night vision going. I have only ONCE in my life been in an open air night (on high open ground) where it was so dark I couldn't see my hand.. and the countrymen I know point-blank don't believe that when I tell them. - It just NEVER happens.

As for artificial lights in the game - I have no opinion - that is a way different subject. Maybe check previous blog discussions including technical aspects. Also a bunch of people HATED sun glare a while back, arguments are in the blog too. There was also a thread on detailed star mapping but it faded out.

=good post=

    xxp

Edited January 23, 2018 by pilgrim*
~

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

24 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

IRL away from artificial lights in any open place without moon and under heavy cloud cover, there is ALWAYS enough ambient light to sew up a wound or reload a gun. But if you drop something small it might be damn difficult to find. Alternatively a dark nigh indoors or under forest & undergrowth, it may be VERY difficult to see anything at all. In any low-light situation IRL its often difficult to tell where eyesight and touch and hearing overlap to build your spatial awareness. But human beings are GOOD at this if they give themselves the chance.
 
Outdoors IRL there is always some visibility.  If you are habituated to, or coming from, artificial light it might take a while to get your night vision going. I have only ONCE in my life been in an open air night (on high open ground) where it was so dark I couldn't see my hand.. and the countrymen I know point-blank don't believe that when I tell them. - It just NEVER happens.

Interesting, as I can't say it matches my experience. While I can't recall seeing my hand or not, what I do remember is that even after a long time in the woods (it may take more than an hour to fully accommodate) I could sometimes see only two kinds of black - the blackness of trees against the blackness of the sky, i.e. silhouttes of the canopies were the only thing that let me walk (ok, maybe I could make out brighter tree trunks nearby when with leaves, but no so much in the autumn). I'm afraid I've never tried to tend my wounds or reload a gun, but on numerous times I was in a situation where, for example, there was no such thing as "safe jogging", for holes, branches or tree stumps were completely invisible against the dark ground. In a dense enough forest, this could apply even on moonlit nights. Obviously I was never in completely dark urban areas, so I can't say how I'd navigate those. But in the forest, even if an action was possible (like pitching a tent), I believe it would still take much longer. I must say I haven't attempted many complex manual actions in the dark, mainly I just walked a lot, but man was it dark sometimes. Like, a lot.

Thanks for the reference to other threads. I'm not sure if I want to dabble with thread necromancy, I just thought, since we have some time to kill anyways, to point out a problem which garners much less attention than the others. I just hope it's mentioned to the devs, that's all.

[pilgrim* 3514]

32 minutes ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

 ..//  even after a long time in the woods (it may take more than an hour to fully accommodate) I could sometimes see only two kinds of black - the blackness of trees against the blackness of the sky ..//..

I did say: <<Alternatively a dark nigh indoors or under forest & undergrowth, it may be VERY difficult to see anything at all.>>  .. hmm..?? 

At night in dayZ make your way round forests not through them if it can be helped. Move and do stuff in open places (same IRL) THEN you will have enough light to "operate" even with no moon. To be realistic NOT in forests and NOT in buildings.

[ IRL in forest put up your tent or your sleeping stuff and gear WELL BEFORE it goes dark; know where gear is so you can feel it if you need it. In forest sleep or stay STILL until first light ]

I have walked DayZ from the far South all the way to the North Highway - without changing gamma from my standard daylight play (for me that's not interesting play)  - I had a VERY careful, tense, eventful, interesting worthwhile time, including seeing a campfire, a truck, & wolves & zombies. The wolves, I got in the ground corner of a 2-floor barn and killed them with a shotgun and a spade (fighting shapes and scuffle sounds, maybe they should have red eyes, or eye gleam but they don't) - was neck and neck; & hairy & long & bloody.  That time I got all the way to the river that borders the north highway and (second time Ive done this) mistook a boulder with a drop off for a sandbank, fell in and broke my neck, dead. But that's a pretty realistic event in the dark. My bad.  - for the whole trip I was following the Pole Star for direction.

My only "complaint" (suggestion)  is zombies should be able to see MUCH less well in the dark, and react more on their hearing than on their night vision.

Edited January 23, 2018 by pilgrim*
~

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

36 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

I did say: <<Alternatively a dark nigh indoors or under forest & undergrowth, it may be VERY difficult to see anything at all.>>  .. hmm..?? 

At night in dayZ make your way round forests not through them if it can be helped. Move and do stuff in open places (same IRL) THEN you will have enough light to "operate" even with no moon. To be realistic NOT in forests and NOT in buildings.

Yep, you said it, my bad.

I like your story and I've quite a number of similar ones, too. I still fondly remember the first zed that appeared right in my headtorch... quite pant-shitting, especially that I had to alternate between a gas lamp and a weapon, like in Doom 3.

I believe that playing at night can be a very exciting experience and different enough from the standard one that everyone could enjoy it every now and then. However, the main drawback is that you just know that most of the others increase the gamma, which makes many people do exactly the same. After all, nobody wants to be a clear target to someone they can't even see. This is why I'm looking forward to the gamma fix hinted some time ago and that it comes with 0.63. I imagine many people will be driven away by the fact that it's dark at night, but many others will start to enjoy it much more. And with the light sources "fixed", it could become a very important and strategic issue to use them or not. With all the pieces in (like strong zeds etc.), a solo experience at night can be potentially very intense and story-building (just like you remember your journey). Fingers crossed!

[GaryWalnuts 1680]

7 hours ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

Ok, I understand that this is not going to make most players too excited, but I’m sure that I can’t be the only amateur astronomer here. While I really appreciate the effort to render the stars correctly (the Fallout games just put a random bunch of lights in the sky), the overall feel is just one of a poorly-made planetarium.

First of all, the relative brightness of stars is completely off, which makes many constellations very difficult to make out.

I agree, I know the devs had recently did some work on the night sky and though it is much improved I think they could go a bit farther.    A few patches back, a few of us were doing a lot of swims to debug island and I had done a lot of them alone too.  Many times I'd gotten lost out there with no point of reference besides the sun and stars.   The sun was easy,  the stars took a bit longer but eventually I got the hang of it, becoming familiar with just a few particular groupings/constellations and their movement across the sky.  For me it was a tough learning curve, and I only figured it out because of my necessity lost at sea.   Even now that I can identify a few constellations in-game that sky navigation knowledge hasn't translated into a truly useful skill because there are much simpler ways to find direction when lost, even without a compass.   It just doesn't pass the cost-benefit analysis when I can just run in a straight line for a few minutes until I see something familiar and get my bearings once again. 

I can see why your average joe player doesn't bother learning the sky because there's really not that much of a payoff for learning it.  If the constellations themselves (not just  the brightest stars) were a bit more apparent I think more players would readily use them.   If we could find an open clearing, concentrate for 15 seconds and then find our direction, well, now the typical player might decide to learn that skill because it's now truly advantageous.  I'd suggest making the commonly known constellations brighter so they are a bit more obvious to the average joe.  I know it's at odds with the "realism" argument but imo it's a worthy compromise for gameplay.  Just my 2c

Edited January 23, 2018 by GaryWalnuts
tpyo

[thegrowl 0]

Agreed.

[Sqeezorz 839]

What I was a little disappointed with the update with the "new" night was the colors. because even if it looks a bit prettier, it is out of touch with reality.

The human being can see almost no colors at night, we only see black and white, as long as the amount of light is small (moonlight is not enough to see really rich colors). I would agree if the colors were very pale, as with very low blood levels.

I've noticed ingame at the EAF in the hangar that in the night all surfaces that are in the shadow of the "night ambiance light" these surfaces are rendered only with an 8-bit color depth. If that happened to the whole environment, then we would not be able to see many differences ... even with "high-gamma", black turns into gray, but with no differentiated accuracy of color-near shapes.

Only artificial light sources that are used in ingame should bring the color depth back with a "faint" color contrast.

Edit: add screen from EAF-Moonlight-Night (0.61) with high-gamma and lightsoucre (chemlight white) in left room.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Sqeezorz

[sneakydude 480]

I dont mind the darkness at all, that way i dont have to fudge up my gamma. Instead of a sniper rifle during the night ill just wait until they introduce the "Gattling Gun" lol joking aside i am ok with flashlights...

 

 

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

16 hours ago, GaryWalnuts said:

  I'd suggest making the commonly known constellations brighter so they are a bit more obvious to the average joe.  I know it's at odds with the "realism" argument but imo it's a worthy compromise for gameplay.  Just my 2c

I would agree if not for the fact that making common constellations more conspicuous is actually a step towards realism. When I said that it takes me seconds to find Ursa Major, I wasn't gloating with my stargazing skills, it's just what anyone can do. In fact, most people don't even have to look for the constellation - sometimes it just sort of hangs there (when "below" the Polar Star) and people just notice it when driving or something. It's literally the third most recognizable object in the sky, after the Sun and the Moon, although I noticed people tend to think that it's Ursa Minor.

The thing is, even in a light polluted place it's quite easy to find your way around the sky. I live in Warsaw, Poland (some 1.7 million people without agglomeration) and the following can be easily distinguished by any amateur from any city park:

Ursa Major, Ursa Minor's Polar Star and the rear two stars (the "sickle" itself is not visible as the stars between are quite dim), Cassiopeia, Cygnus (the cross shape), Lyra, Aquila's Altair with its right-hand neighbour Tarazed, Boötes (with its main star Arcturus).

The fall/winter is much less spectacular and comes with many dim stars, but you can still rely on: Orion, Auriga (the full ring), Taurus (the Pleiades and the Aldebaran triangle), Gemini's Kastor & Pollux.

This is really Astronomy 101 available instantly to anyone taking a walk with a friend who happens to know a few of them. There are a few more important constellations like Hercules, Perseus, Corona Borealis, Andromeda & Pegasus, Leo, but with these I believe you need to know what you're looking for.

Also, people tend to notice Sirius, but mistakenly think it's Venus. Which reminds me that Venus itself can be so bright that people think it's either a Boeing or a comet (seriously). Yeah, that lady is really missing on our DayZ sky.

And let's not forget the Milky Way! Without the light pollution, it should be instantly visible to anyone who doesn't even care.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

15 hours ago, Sqeezorz said:

.

Edit: add screen from EAF-Moonlight-Night (0.61) with high-gamma and lightsoucre (chemlight white) in left room.

Yeah, I remember this image. Wasn't it a proof that the things are going in the right direction and the devs try to make the night something different than a less colourful day?

Obviously, the gamma thing has to be fixed, otherwise this entire conversation is idle talk. But in my opinion, this needs to include two elements: 1) playing without light should be really painful (possibly even with some actions "light-sensitive", so e.g. you can't craft in the dark), 2) light sources should be improved so they provide more illumination and less blindness.

[OrLoK 16186]

Play nice, guys n girls. Don't make me suspend anyone.

Thread cleaned.

Carry on...

Edited January 24, 2018 by OrLoK

[Baker. 1484]

27 minutes ago, OrLoK said:

Play nice, guys n girls. Don't make me suspend anyone.

Thread cleaned.

Carry on...

Lok does the lords work *hugs*

[Lexman61 78]

1 hour ago, OrLoK said:

Play nice, guys n girls. Don't make me suspend anyone.

Thread cleaned.

Carry on...

Censorship is the child of fear and the father of ignorance.

Laurie Halse Anderson

Lèse-majesté?

 

[Irish. 4886]

wow.. a post about the night time, with veteran players in it and Orlok getting drug out from his dungeon to intervene..

 

Is this 2012? o.O

 

I have missed ZERO by staying away from here it looks like.. well, see you all in another "insert same amount of time"... 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Irish.

[OrLoK 16186]

36 minutes ago, Lexman61 said:

Censorship is the child of fear and the father of ignorance.

Laurie Halse Anderson

Lèse-majesté?

 

I'll state this just once.

This is *our* forum, not yours. You are a guest here. Behave appropriately and you can remain. Mess around and you may be asked to leave.

There is no such thing as "Free Speech" in a private forum.

 

back on topic, guys n gals.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

Coming back on topic - I just checked that the flashlight works very fine on 1pp when you simply raise your hands. So basically the problem lies in the light sources which you constantly carry in your 1pp FOV, like gas lamps, torches, flares and chem lights. Although in RL you obviously do see what you carry, you tend to hold your torch or whatnot more to the side and above, at the level of your head. I worry that the devs are not coming up with a special animation for that. I hope we won't get stuck with blinding light sources, or at least they'll illuminate a bigger area.

 

Thanks OrLoK

Edited January 25, 2018 by Kirov (DayZ)

[Sqeezorz 839]

Lamps are sometimes better in 1pp or 3pp. But all except the headlamp / pistol-light and flashlight have a serious flaw since the new renderer. They hold them in their hands so they barely see blinded from the glare-light. They hold the light source in front of your viewing angle so that they become blind from the counter light. The gas lamp is very bad .... in the RL you wear a lamp from the "viewing angle shadow". That's why the headlamp is the best lamp ... but also a dangerous one because you can not put it down so quickly, or switch it off. (you can throw away a Torc, switch a gas lamp if it's in the Hotbar). Definitely, the "poses and animations need to be reconsidered before we can enjoy the night without gamma cheat." The idea with crafting limitations in the dark sounds good, but should not be "possible" / "impossible." It would be much more interesting crafting in the dark with a "declining success rate" to prove that we can lose things in the dark ... because we see it too bad, or the result of crafting is not pristine ... but Worn or even badly damaged ** ... ( ** I am still thinking of linking with softskills).

Edited January 24, 2018 by Sqeezorz
Removed my infected typo.....rest are gift to all.

[Mantasisg 172]

By reading a thread title I thought that we are going to talk about something very intimate, or perhaps even kinky lol

I must be not enough realsim obsessed, so I think DayZ night is rather awesome. Just that it makes already impossible interactions to be even more impossible. And then someone with cranked up gamma just snipes you.... Goodnight.

IMO using lightources is stupid because it makes you visible. But it is a must just to see how f**ing incredible shadows are implemented. It is incredible. But we can only dream about insane battles, or stressful encounters at night in between fireplaces, or car headlights.... you know....

I think DayZ night and day/night/day transitions are really awesome. I like occasionally launching The Village server. Which, incredibly, use night and rain - how amazing. I usually die because something is messing up with hands when you are crafting a fire, and it is usual that when fire stops (and it damn stops burning in 30s like if you were making a fire place out of single sheet of toilet paper), you can't do anything about it...

Rain and night - the best.

[Sqeezorz 839]

12 minutes ago, Mantasisg said:

(and it damn stops burning in 30s like if you were making a fire place out of single sheet of toilet paper)

Ahhm.... hmmm.. lol... you made my day

Oh my belly, wet eyes...i make this experience in the rain ... shit !#^?¿¡₩ what is that .. why ??

I tried to reproduce it, again and again ... without success.

[DannyDog 532]

7 hours ago, Mantasisg said:

IMO using lightources is stupid because it makes you visible. But it is a must just to see how f**ing incredible shadows are implemented. It is incredible. But we can only dream about insane battles, or stressful encounters at night in between fireplaces, or car headlights.... you know....

Yea that's true especially if people will just gamma abuse to avoid using light sources at night. This is why i'm leaning so much on a simple sanity meter that would require players to stay in the light during night time to avoid going insane.

[Mantasisg 172]

This would be interesting, though from my own experience I can say that darkness is not always scary, sometimes it is rather cosy. Well it depends. it definitely is not cosy if you play in darkness as supposed, and someone is abusing brightness settings. Another worst thing is that people will always migrate to sunny dry and warm servers, unless proper game design actions will be applied.

@Squeezorz Thats true, fire really burns for really short time in DayZ. Last time I was making it, wasn't even outside, but in a house.

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Mantasisg

[Sqeezorz 839]

Its true...the night need benefits you do not have during the day. But it also needs disadvantages if you think you can correct the darkness with gamma instead of the mechanics of "crafting light"

And its right... woodensticks burns like the hellfire fast... counterside the Firewood have a good burntime, but go not to mutch away from the fireplace, then it will still go out. (Fireviewdistance are the critical distance)

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

9 hours ago, Mantasisg said:

This would be interesting, though from my own experience I can say that darkness is not always scary, sometimes it is rather cosy. Well it depends. it definitely is not cosy if you play in darkness as supposed, and someone is abusing brightness settings. Another worst thing is that people will always migrate to sunny dry and warm servers, unless proper game design actions will be applied.

@Squeezorz Thats true, fire really burns for really short time in DayZ. Last time I was making it, wasn't even outside, but in a house.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sqeezorz said:

Its true...the night need benefits you do not have during the day. But it also needs disadvantages if you think you can correct the darkness with gamma instead of the mechanics of "crafting light"

And its right... woodensticks burns like the hellfire fast... counterside the Firewood have a good burntime, but go not to mutch away from the fireplace, then it will still go out. (Fireviewdistance are the critical distance)

 

Guys, I have a couple of figures which you haven’t asked for.

First things first, how fireplaces work in general. It starts with the kindling, then the first stick burns longer, next sticks burn faster, then first wood goes longer, next woods burn faster, then the book (!) is consumed, then there’s a period when flames are on but without any fuel and you have time to add some. This is the followed by a super short period where the flame is out but you can add fuel and “blow air”.

The simple fireplace burns through fuel the fastest, the 5-stone option takes considerably longer, and the 8-stone furnace gives you enough of free time to loot a town.

I believe that the presence of firewood may affect the duration of both kindling and sticks.

Bark burns longer than rags which burn longer than paper. You can stack rags as usual.

@Mantasisg, you’re right – a 1 bark 1 stick campfire burns on for some 1:30 min (+11 sec for igniting). However, this should be enough to go from completely drenched to dry or slightly damp. And isn't it the basic purpose of campfires?

Tree bark burns 20sec in simple fireplace to more than 30sec in furnace. Rags burn a bit shorter. Paper – 10sec in simple, up to 18 sec in furnace.

Sticks – the first one goes from some 45s (simple) to 1:15 (furnace). Next ones go from 25s (simple) to 50s (furnace).

Firewood – the first takes 2:05 (simple) to 4:05 (furnace). Next ones take from 1:40 (simple) to 3:15 (furnace).

Book - I believe it can add some 1:15 min, but it’s bugged (didn’t disappear from the screen), so I’m not sure. Fun fact, it burns after the wood.

I got very varied results, which may indicate either some randomness or various effects. Basically, I’ve discovered that the campfire mechanics seem much more complicated than it seems. I used to think that each attachment has a burn time and that’s that. However, it seems that if you tinker with your campfire by adding a small piece, you can greatly prolong the life of the next burning piece. For example, add 1 bark immediately after the 1 bark is gone, and the following stick lives for 40sec more. Similar things happened when I added single sticks when firewood was on. However, as we still can’t tell features from bugs, I guess it’s best we wait with more precise research.

@Sqeezorz, remember to carry the ice-axe, the stones work fantastic!

I’ve created a Behemoth of the furnaces (1 bark, 1 paper, 6 rags, 5 firewood, 8 stones) and it burnt for solid 30 minutes without any additional assistance. Even after the last piece is out, you still have 3:20 min to find more fuel and some 10sec to “blow air”. And it’s not even the biggest possible option as I didn’t know about books back then.

The map can’t be used as kindling at the moment.

I hear your question, guys – no, you can’t. You can’t pour gasoline on the fireplace.

I haven’t checked the household hearths and barrel fires yet.