First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Jex 1104]

Why would I do that? Team Rocket has stated multiple times that they don't need that many sales to break even. Why maximize profit when you care more about how good the game turns out? There are many other things that could make DayZ even more accessable to the more casual market, but no one disagrees that implementing those things is a bad idea? Even though it probably would make BI more money? Everyone complains about EA when they try to get the most money out of the consumer, then some people complain when a dev team aren't trying to do the same. Whatupwiththat?

 

BIS made their money from the game before the game was made - Arma 2 sales last year were top of the steam best seller list - how many million players bought arma 2 to play DayZ at $20 a pop (that's $20 Million IF the figure is a million people that bought it for DayZ - what if it's more - I'd love to know the figures. Even if only 500,000 copies sold, that's still $10 million).

 

Rocket said in a dev blog he wanted to charge more for the Alpha but BIS CEO (I think it was) Marek Španěl, said no even though the market is ripe for a game like this - they're not fleecing the consumer and people really should congratulate BIS on sticking with the community of gamers i.e. us.

 

Unlike EA or Activision or Ubisoft, bunch of cunts that fleece gamers for everything they can get. Remember when COD had user made maps? Nope we'll make DLC and charge for that. BIS chose not to go down that route but uphold the gaming community.

 

I don't buy those shitty cod or bf games anymore. there's no substance to them. It's a pity more people don't play arma for what it's made for but I suppose most people don't want immersion or something. Gone slightly off topic but BIS really do need the praise sang (and they sent spies to greece, how cool is that! lol j/k)

[Wayze 549]

Ain't it the truth.

Not it is not. The animations in DayZ and Arma 2 just suck.

[Jex 1104]

 

Of course, it doesn't effect the loot piles but it absolutely effects how long it takes a player to get to them.

 

 

You entirely missed by point, nonetheless, I would be willing to bet that the average life span is longer on 1st person servers than it is on 3rd person servers, for all of the reasons Mercules outlines.

 

I managed to live for 39 hours on a first person server whislt getting into several pvp fights - what killed me - coming out of one of the castle towers and glitching so i catapulted off the stairs and died when i hit the bottom...grrrrr - made 2nd place on the leader board though :)

[terrvik 2409]

In my wildest dreams, I can't imagine there being two different hives and why would there be?

 

What's this worst case scenario you're fearing,

 

I don't fear anything. It was a question. Sorry for being curious.

 

I do fear however that there will be more customization of the rules other than just the perspective and that there still will be only one central hive. That would be a problem.

 

 

The 1st person view is designed for ArmA, not for DayZ, where you have to find the needle in the haystack.

 

So is the third person perspective? The truth is that neither perspective is good enough at the moment and needs fixing.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[dgeesio 1034]

Nobody is forcing you to click on it. Let us have our discussion. This thread is the only thing on these forums I'm remotely interested in.

 you arent getting anywhere though ?

 

its pointless after this amny posts whats been discovered or agreed on thats new ? = nothing !

 

its just as it started out people arguing about which is better or personal preferences. you dont need to make a thread to see this you already knew the outcome.

[Wayze 549]

 you arent getting anywhere though ?

 

its pointless after this amny posts whats been discovered or agreed on thats new ? = nothing !

 

its just as it started out people arguing about which is better or personal preferences. you dont need to make a thread to see this you already knew the outcome.

The whole life is a big nothing. But we still enjoy it, don't we?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Wayze

[Ken Bean 174]

The whole life is a big nothing. But we still enjoy it, don't we?

Yeah, and for example having choices makes it so enjoyable.

[Jex 1104]

 

No it doesn't, in fact the mixing views is probably WHY both are rather crappily designed. It doesn't do either well, or at least not as well as other games that stick to one or the other do them. 

The main aspect or features of the engine, per BI are:

 

Main Features

 

*Unique AI

 

 

 

I dunno the Ai are pretty unique aren't they? lol have u ever seen ai like this anywhere? It needs to be said that the Arma AI is actually very good, just not for DayZ and much much better than almost any AI you'll find in any other game where it's scripted (even though they are incredibly dumb at times, but so are people).

 

Also check this out

 

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/

 

 

What did they complain about?

Gibson: It’s the gameplay mechanics that they become used to. The way that players instantly accelerate when they move, they don’t build up speed. “The weapons really don’t have a lot of power” [in RO2]. They’re all very weak. The way they handle… They’re like: “I hate Red Orchestra, I can’t play it.” Well, why? “Because the guy doesn’t move like he does in Call of Duty. Call of Duty has great movement.” Why is it great? “Because it just is, I just like the way it works.” So you don’t like the momentum system in Red Orchestra? “Yeah, it sucks, it’s clunky, it’s terrible.” Well, why? “It’s just because I’m used to this.”

 

I make it sound like there was a combative conversation, probably because I get a little emotional when I think about it. But it was really a calm discussion of, “What don’t you like?” and “It doesn’t feel like Call of Duty.” Almost every element boiled down to “it doesn’t feel like Call of Duty.” And really, watching some of these guys play… one of the things that Call of Duty does, and it’s smart business, to a degree, is they compress the skill gap. And the way you compress the skill gap as a designer is you add a whole bunch of randomness. A whole bunch of weaponry that doesn’t require any skill to get kills. Random spawns, massive cone fire on your weapons. Lots of devices that can get kills with zero skill at all, and you know, it’s kind of smart to compress your skill gap to a degree. You don’t want the elite players to destroy the new players so bad that new players can never get into the game and enjoy it. I’m looking at you, Dota. [laughs] Sorry.

 

It's an interview with TripWire CEO who make red orchestra - He argues how COD ruins FPS's because of the entirely unrealistic movements in those games. People cannot spin 360 in  a second, you cannot spin 360 on the floor either, neither can you sprint in one direction only to turn 90 degrees in an instant.

 

As gamers we are used to twitch style shooting so when you play games like Arma or red orchestra, those "clunky movements" are more like real life. Read the interview it's pretty good and fair.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Jexter

[terrvik 2409]

People also play third person for the same reason they play racing games in third person. You're most likely worse off driving in third person, but not everyone wants to look at a stupid dashboard for thirty laps, they wanna see some chrome, some rims, flaming exhaustion pipes, dust and smoke.

 

ArmA 3's first person view is so good, if could pass off as COD cinematic shooter, but a lot of people will still enjoy ArmA 3 in third person mode, because they enjoy looking as the SF operator's HD butt, when they do reload animations. Playing in third person is a trade off, because you're gimping yourself in reaction time and accuracy, but it's a trade off many are willing to make, because the visual experience is much more appealing.

 

This might be a good thing in a single player simulator experience but I don't agree that one should play a zombie survival simulator, that's supposed to be unforgiving and frustrating none the less, to take cinematic shots of how badass you look when flying a helicopter toward the sunrise. The isolation, claustrophobia and tunnel vision in FPV for me is a pretty nice metaphor for the despair and presence of imminent death in the DayZ world. For me it's an artistic and narrative choice, not to improve PvP or show how "elite" I am. Because I am not. :)

 

I want as few "gamey" mechanics in a survival experience like this and TPV is a gamey mechanic. That's really all there is to it for me. Third literally means that you are the third person watching the first person act. I want to play as that first person, not just control him.

 

It's not really appropriate to compare Arma with the SA anymore since one is a military sim, the other will not be. There shouldn't be a reason to geek out over models like one would be in a racing, flying or military sim because you are interested in the subject matter. I'm interested in the zombie apocalypse scenario, and I can see that one well enough through a first person perspective. :)

Edited August 30, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[tommes 331]

...but it's a trade off many are willing to make, because the visual experience is much more appealing.

There's no tradeoff if you can switch quickly enough.

[wild_man 4442]

 ...The isolation and tunnel vision in FPV is for me a pretty nice metaphor for the despair and presence of imminent death in the DayZ world...

:beans:

 

you make headshot on the nail with this one :thumbsup:  :)

[tommes 331]

It's an interview with TripWire CEO who make red orchestra - He argues how COD ruins FPS's because of the entirely unrealistic movements in those games. People cannot spin 360 in  a second, you cannot spin 360 on the floor either, neither can you sprint in one direction only to turn 90 degrees in an instant.

He makes a good point. Players are beeing spoiled by more or less arcade style shooters or other bullcrap of that same kind.

[Wayze 549]

Yeah, and for example having choices makes it so enjoyable.

You mean the illusion of choice. But, however, choice made war, choice made murder, choice made 911, choice made also all the bad things in the world. There are rules in the world, which take us some choices we could make.

[Jex 1104]

Wow, what an ignorant statement. You're suggesting that 80% of the people who bought Arma to play DayZ mod did it specifically because DayZ included third person view? Tell me then, why did they not buy Arma2 years ago when it launched? Surely it had third person view at launch, if you're implying that's the deciding factor for people, dayz didnt introduce anything new.

 

Seriously tho, people would have bought dayz if it didn't even have third person view. CHKilroys videos became insanely popular early on in DayZs life, and he didn't enter third person once during any of them.

 

I want to keep making this point, which is rather obvious but not not at the same time

 

If dayz launched with no 3rd person, people would be used to it and would play like that. People would still have played it as much had it been this way - the game is simply too awesome to be missed.

 

So going back to  COD and BF - would these games require 3rd person to be a success - well obviously not. Could you imaging these games with a 3rd person view? Are there people on their forums screaming for 3rd person? No - so why is it an issue here then? Do DayZ players not player other FPS games? Are they making threads in those forums for 3rd person - no. It simply isn't an issue and irrelevant.

So now that we know the success of the game is irrelevant to the view, and we know that for decades now FPS's, which is the name of a whole generator of games (FIRST person shooter), we can now dispel this myth that 3rd person is going to make a difference on sales.

 

If the game ships as 1st person only, everyone is still going to buy it or they miss out on one of the classic games of this decade. You WILL be talking about DayZ years from now and if no 3rd person will put you off playing then it is those people that will miss out, but they will be very very few.

 

So we no that the majority of DayZ'ers play FPS's and have no issue with that. DayZ will be a smoother FPS experience so what exactly is the argument here?

 

So going back to what I said in the beginning, if we had no 3rd person to begin with, there would not be any 1200 page long threads about adding it in. It would be a non issue then right, so why isn't it a non issue now?

 

It should be, for the reasons stated above.

[Ken Bean 174]

This might be a good thing in a single player simulator experience but I don't agree that one should play a zombie survival simulator, that's supposed to be unforgiving and frustrating none the less, to take cinematic shots of how badass you look when flying a helicopter toward the sunrise. The isolation and tunnel vision in FPV is for me a pretty nice metaphor for the despair and presence of imminent death in the DayZ world. For me it's an artistic and narrative choice, not to improve PvP or show how "elite" I am. Because I am not. :)

I want as few "gamey" mechanics in a survival experience like this and TPV is a gamey mechanic. That's really all there is to it for me. Third literally means that you are the third person watching the first person act. I want to play as that first person, not just control him.

It's not really appropriate to compare Arma with the SA anymore since one is a military sim, the other will not be. There shouldn't be a reason to be geeked out over models like one would be in a racing, flying or military sim because you are interested in the subject matter. I'm interested in the zombie apocalypse scenario, and I can see that one well enough through a first perspective. :)

There you have a point, but let me explain what you missed.

The game Amnesia is quite immersive, has its tunel vision and so on...

But you are not playing your own role. You are Daniel, a fixed charakter. His role and idendity is predefined. You are experiencing exactly what the devs want you to see.

DayZ on the other hand has the oposite concept. This is your story, your charakter is what you want him to be. As said, the 3rd person cam might be not perfect in your opinion, but its an integral base element of the game. DayZ would work completely without the 1st person. The 1st p basically obly is used for the fight system - which could be changed completely without losing the core element survival and therefore roleplay.

And let me add:

If the 1st person would work, more folks would go on an super immersive amnesia like trip. But it doesnt work, so 1st person only is abandoned widely by the playerbase.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Well if someone says that first person sucks in DayZ/Arma 2 then I suggest you to test Arma 3 somewhere (maybe there will be demo available in the release). I believe that FPV in DayZ will be as fluid as in Arma 3 and believe me it's much more friendly, less mouse lag and you can easily move inside buildings because of the different paces.

I just tested again Arma 2 after Arma 3 and A2 movement just feels awful. I believe many compensate the Arma 2 clunkyness with 3rd person so that's why I suggest this.

Edited August 30, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[terrvik 2409]

There you have a point, but let me explain what you missed.

The game Amnesia is quite immersive, has its tunel vision and so on...

But you are not playing your own role. You are Daniel, a fixed charakter. His role and idendity is predefined. You are experiencing exactly what the devs want you to see.

DayZ on the other hand has the oposite concept. This is your story, your charakter is what you want him to be. As said, the 3rd person cam might be not perfect in your opinion, but its an integral base element of the game. DayZ would work completely without the 1st person. The 1st p basically obly is used for the fight system - which could be changed completely without losing the core element survival and therefore roleplay.

 

In Amnesia I am playing Daniel. I'm not playing someone else controlling Daniel. Amnesia is a pefect example of how first persion enhances tension and horror in a game, so thanks for bringing that one up. :)

 

DayZ would work completely without TPV as well, so I don't really see what point you are making here (might just be lack of coffee on my side, mind!). I have acknowledged multiple times that there are some serious problems with FPV as it is right now, why is it that you can't do the same with TPV? Both needs fixing; this giant monster of a thread is alone proof that all is not well in perspective land.

[Ken Bean 174]

Well if someone says that first person sucks in DayZ/Arma 2 then I suggest you to test Arma 3 somewhere (maybe there will be demo available in the release). I believe that FPV in DayZ will be as fluid as in Arma 3 and believe me it's much more friendly, less mouse lag and you can easily move inside buildings because of the different paces.

I just tested again Arma 2 after Arma 3 and A2 movement just feels awful. I believe many compensate the Arma 2 clunkyness with 3rd person so that's why I suggest this.

I know and I already played ArmaA 3. 1st person works way better and its kind of easier than 3rd person (which looks a little weird, especially the forward animation).

Question is: Do you want DayZ to be more a shooter or more a role playing game? You can say shooter, then noone cares if you drop the 3rd person.

Other way round I could life without the 1st p.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[terrvik 2409]

Question is: Do you want DayZ to be more a shooter or more a role playing game?

 

Neither.

[Ken Bean 174]

Neither.

Then it helps both elements to have both views.

[tommes 331]

As said, the 3rd person cam might be not perfect in your opinion, but its an integral base element of the game. DayZ would work completely without the 1st person.

It also works without 3rd person view. But you can't really let go of 1st person because the fighting part would just suck balls as well as you would have to cut out the "sim".

The 1st p basically obly is used for the fight system - which could be changed completely without losing the core element survival and therefore roleplay.

There's no role play in DayZ unless you make one for yourself. It is YOUR story. Not some avatars aka role.

And let me add:

If the 1st person would work, more folks would go on an super immersive amnesia like trip. But it doesnt work, so 1st person only is abandoned widely by the playerbase.

It is not abandoned. Most players use a combination of both views.

You keep making the same (mostly) invalid points over and over again.

[Jex 1104]

Wrong game dude, play Battlefield.

And as said a thousand times, the fight system is fair. Everyone has equal chances. You just dont want to understand, right?

If you have a problem then actually name it. It doesnt help if you call a fair fighting system unfair because you cant properly point out your issue otherwise.

 

I'm struggling to work out how it's fair if I'm sat on a roof using 3rd person to look over at you moving up the road and waiting till your back is to me before I kill you.

 

If you meant that it's fair in the sense we can all use 3rd person the example above proves that to be wrong.

[Ken Bean 174]

If it goes too much into the pvp shooter direction, I personally would sabotage the 1st person a bit.

Maybe there is something wrong with the 3rd person "exploit" but imho this is not the main issue.

But on the other hand, one really needs to try it out. Its almost impossible to predict any outcome of every tweak.

So the devs will have a lot to try and test, I'm afraid.

[tommes 331]

Question is: Do you want DayZ to be more a shooter or more a role playing game? You can say shooter, then noone cares if you drop the 3rd person.

But I care if other players do not drop 3rd person because of that influence on my playstyle.

What you once again fail to understand is that your choice has impact on other players and their choice. No one cares what you do alone in your bed under your blanket at night. But if you use perks of a vision mode in situations where you shouldn't then others might care about that.

[Jex 1104]

1st person is not more difficult. It's just broken and weird. If you are a bit skilled, you easily can survive 20 hours.

 

How is 1st person "broken and weird"?