First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Jex 1104]

I get the feeling that Rocket shares my opinion in that there's no point in having first person only servers because it will end up exactly like the MOD, where despite lots of people wanting them, they sit empty.

 

This is just wrong - are you saying that if Dayz SA shipped as 1st person only, you wouldn't play it? I think we need a poll about this.

[(TMW) Marion Mic 104]

Hi there,

 

This is just wrong - are you saying that if Dayz SA shipped as 1st person only, you wouldn't play it? I think we need a poll about this.

 

Sir,

 

No. Just, no.

 

Dslyecxi video has around 30.000 views and 3.000 likes/dislikes. That means every 10 person will approve that or deny "on paper". Since there are 2949 likes and 44 dislikes, that means ~99% of viewers would agree with him and would approve playing in 1st person. Poll: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/ is just another indicator of that and another poll made by SoulHunter I believe: https://docs.google....j2Sil4/viewform that confirms what majority is thinking about that.

 

According to these polls/likes, I do not believe we need another similar poll just to see how many of 3rd would play, since they are minority at those polls so far. I hope that make any sense^^.

Edited August 30, 2013 by (TMW) Marion Mic

[Jex 1104]

There you go using the exploite word again , if I play say WOW or Rift or SWTOR in 3rdp view am I exploiting ?

No I can not speak for everybody only myself but there is a disproportional representation in this thread when compaired to the game community as a group that's why their called the silent majority nothing short of a bomb under them gets them moving even then they will simply vote with their wallets . 3rdp view works , its popular , it makes sales , it doesn't hurt anybody why butcher it .

cheers

 

Nice assertion their though entirely baseless - how exactly does it "make sales"

 

I'll answer that for you - it doesn't. See how much more COD and BF sell and they're 1st person only, so by your own logic you have successfully shot yourself in the foot - well done, have a banana.

 

 

WOW that's a big banana - it took ages to peel it too :)

[terrvik 2409]

How is 1st person "broken and weird"?

 

When I'm standing next to the wall all I see is concrete. I have no idea what's on the other side. :(

[DerrocK (DayZ) 39]

When I'm standing next to the wall all I see is concrete. I have no idea what's on the other side. :(

No way! Seems like 1st person is another world

[Jex 1104]

They are als split into two base camps on 3rd person view. I believe PvP'ers are the same as 1st person players and therefore the 3rd person lovers belong to the PvP-avoiders.

I'm not sure that it is possible to really cater to both crowds at the same time respectively the same game.

Seriously wrong. My friends and I don't avoid fights but don't go looking for them. We move across the map with whatever objective we have in mind - if we come into contact with other players we asses the situation and go from there.

 

You cannot label so easily.

[tommes 331]

Seriously wrong. My friends and I don't avoid fights but don't go looking for them. We move across the map with whatever objective we have in mind - if we come into contact with other players we asses the situation and go from there.

 

You cannot label so easily.

That's why I said "base camps" and later "many shades of grey".

[Ken Bean 174]

You guys will see. Once the first person is fixed, more player will join 1st person server.

... And all the CoD and BF3 player come :)

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

If you have third person, you have the option to observe a situation before going in. You can easily kill someone because you have always the advantage of surprise, he will not see you until you shot him in the face. So there is no reason to avoid combat. You are on the save side if you heard any shots. But if you are a first person only player you just don't have the overview, you cannot observer the situation as in third person. It is way harder to localize a person without being spotted. If you go into a combat you could be always suprised by another player from behind, this is not likely to happen if you know how to use third person.

I don't like third person because it is like a coward mode. I mean, how often do you kill people from behind? It is like everytime I kill someone I do it from behind and if I get killed I get killed from behind, because of third person. Because you can observe a player, wait for his move and surprise him. Third person is for backstabbers, the one who spots someone else first is in an HUGE advantage. Sure you have also the advantage in first person mode, but you actually give the other guy a chance to spot you. In third person the other guy can be as careful as he wants, if you are in a advanced position he has just no chance. This does not apply to reallife. Special forces for example know the danger of ambushes etc. however sometimes they have to expose themselfs in situation that could indeed possibly be a ambush. But these guys are trained, they are either very fast or very slow and observe everything. Every move they make is a move which could mean death to every squad member. But they are trained, they know how to deal with certain situations. Their training is their life insurance. But in DayZ third person you can be expirienced as you want to be, you can be very, very careful. Even if you apply realistic combat tactics the chances that you survive always depend on the position of the other player. If he is in a position where he can observe you, you are dead. It does matter if you take you time, observe the roofs etc. at some point a dude could just pop up and shot you in the head.

This changes the whole gameplay, every player knows that exactly that could happen, so why being careful? If I can't control it, why should I give a f*ck? There could be someone behind every corner, the problem is that he is invisible to me and if he wants to kill me he will do it. There is nothing I can do about it. And this is what I really don't like about third person, it is just about who sees who first and who is in the better position. There are no advanced tactics in the game.

[terrvik 2409]

... And all the CoD and BF3 player come :)

 

And they will cry delicious sweet tears. It will be beautiful.

 

Besides; one of the main arguments in this thread has been that removing TPV will alienate a major part of the audience and result in less sales. So wouldn't an influx of players from the CoD and BF audience be a good thing then?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[Ken Bean 174]

If you have third person, you have the option to observe a situation before going in. You can easily kill someone because you have always the advantage of surprise, he will not see you until you shot him in the face. So there is no reason to avoid combat.

Whats with being a nice guy and the other 5 player you right in the moment cant see?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Ken Bean 174]

And they will cry delicious sweet tears. It will be beautiful.

Besides; one of the main arguments in this thread has been that removing TPV will alienate a major part of the audience and result in less sales. So wouldn't an influx of players from the CoD and BF audience be a good thing then?

I dont care. Not my cup of tea. Yours?

The shift of gameplay will lead to a shift of the audience. 1st person focus generally would be able to boost sales beyond good and evil. There are many 1st person lover out there...

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[terrvik 2409]

I dont care. Not my cup of tea. Yours?

The shift of gameplay will lead to a shift of the audience. 1st person focus generally would be able to boost sales beyond good and evil. There are many 1st person lover out there...

 

I don't think they should focus on maximising sales, no. It's not me that has been using that argument. :)

[Jex 1104]

This might be a good thing in a single player simulator experience but I don't agree that one should play a zombie survival simulator, that's supposed to be unforgiving and frustrating none the less, to take cinematic shots of how badass you look when flying a helicopter toward the sunrise. The isolation, claustrophobia and tunnel vision in FPV for me is a pretty nice metaphor for the despair and presence of imminent death in the DayZ world. For me it's an artistic and narrative choice, not to improve PvP or show how "elite" I am. Because I am not. :)

 

I want as few "gamey" mechanics in a survival experience like this and TPV is a gamey mechanic. That's really all there is to it for me. Third literally means that you are the third person watching the first person act. I want to play as that first person, not just control him.

 

It's not really appropriate to compare Arma with the SA anymore since one is a military sim, the other will not be. There shouldn't be a reason to geek out over models like one would be in a racing, flying or military sim because you are interested in the subject matter. I'm interested in the zombie apocalypse scenario, and I can see that one well enough through a first perspective. :)

 

I'd have to say that I play games to play the game, not to look at the car. I had plenty of fun in Geoff Crammonds F1 - hours of entertainment in the cockpit of the car - you know where the driver sits. It;s not an arguemnt anyway since the user you quoted plays FPS's where there is no third person option.

[Jex 1104]

And let me add:

If the 1st person would work, more folks would go on an super immersive amnesia like trip. But it doesnt work, so 1st person only is abandoned widely by the playerbase.

 

3rd person works because it gives an advantage over 1st person - most players will always adopt the easier option if it's available to them. 1st person is a little clunky and that will be improved in the SA. Arma 3 is much improved over arma 2 and they're using the same system pretty much aren't they?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

 

WOW that's a big banana - it took ages to peel it too :)

That's the biggest image I've ever seen on the internet.  I think it was actually bigger than my screen somehow.  Beans for such witchcraft.

[Jex 1104]

You guys will see. Once the first person is fixed, more player will join 1st person server.

... And all the CoD and BF3 player come :)

 

That argument was used a year ago now - that we already had cod/bf3 players here because of all the kos. They're already here - amazingly, people like to play different games for different experiences.

[Jex 1104]

And they will cry delicious sweet tears. It will be beautiful.

 

Besides; one of the main arguments in this thread has been that removing TPV will alienate a major part of the audience and result in less sales. So wouldn't an influx of players from the CoD and BF audience be a good thing then?

 

And that argument is blatantly wrong, I think several people have shot down the notion that people won't buy the SA "just because it doesn't have 3rd person"

 

I mean, seriously, who's going to do that?

 

EDIT: Oh look my poll already shows 5 times in favour of saying they would still buy the game if there was no 3rd person. Quelle surprise.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Jexter

[Jex 1104]

When I'm standing next to the wall all I see is concrete. I have no idea what's on the other side. :(

 

oh fuck me! I thought that's what I was meant to see.

 

BIS - FIX THIS RIGHT NOW! >:(

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

And that argument is blatantly wrong, I think several people have shot down the notion that people won't buy the SA "just because it doesn't have 3rd person"

 

I mean, seriously, who's going to do that?

 

EDIT: Oh look my poll already shows 5 times in favour of saying they would still buy the game if there was no 3rd person. Quelle surprise.

Yeh but we established that polls are only valid if they back up your argument.  If not you can dismiss them.

[Jex 1104]

I dont care. Not my cup of tea. Yours?

The shift of gameplay will lead to a shift of the audience. 1st person focus generally would be able to boost sales beyond good and evil. There are many 1st person lover out there...

 

It's a non issue - people will use whatever tools they are given to play the game. It won't affect sales one bit and easily proved by asking one simple question,

 

"When was the last time you didn't buy a game because it had no 3rd person option?"

 

Does anyone even consider that when buying games? It's NEVER occurred to me to even think about out and neither has anyone else.

 

This is why this argument is stupid and why it is wrong.

[mercules 1290]

1st person is not more difficult. It's just broken and weird. If you are a bit skilled, you easily can survive 20 hours.

 

 

We are not talking about skill level. TPV is easier. You get more information from less exposure. <- That makes it easier.

 

It very well may happen , would you still be so interested if it was (god forbid) restricted to 3rdp only ?

cheers

 

It sort of is. At least for many of us. 

"Hey guys lets hop on this server. It has a few people so we could run into someone, I like that danger, but not too many people. Ping is good from here, how about you guys?"

"Yeah, that looks go... oh wait, it's 3rd person."

 

There you go using the exploite word again , if I play say WOW or Rift or SWTOR in 3rdp view am I exploiting ?

No I can not speak for everybody only myself but there is a disproportional representation in this thread when compaired to the game community as a group that's why their called the silent majority nothing short of a bomb under them gets them moving even then they will simply vote with their wallets . 3rdp view works , its popular , it makes sales , it doesn't hurt anybody why butcher it .

cheers

 

Actually, it was the DESIGNER of the game that used the word Exploit. In a video game "exploit" means using something in a way it wasn't intended to gain an advantage. When the Designer tells you something is an exploit he means it is being used as an exploit. People are using TPV exploits, the designer just told us that. So that means it is AN EXPLOIT. I am going to use that word again, because I don't think you get the Dean Hall called that an exploit and he defines what is an is not intended in his game.  Exploit.

 

DayZ players are split into two base camps on PvP: the ones seeking PvP and the ones avoiding it.

They are als split into two base camps on 3rd person view. I believe PvP'ers are the same as 1st person players and therefore the 3rd person lovers belong to the PvP-avoiders.

I'm not sure that it is possible to really cater to both crowds at the same time respectively the same game.

 

It's actually more of a square. Across we have FPV on the left and TPV on the right. Up we have PvP and down we have non-PvP. I would be far left and below the middle line. I agree the PvP aspect of the game adds a lot of tension to it, but I don't go looking for trouble. When I do go looking for trouble I tend to hunt bandits. I prefer FPV because it makes zombies more menacing and it cuts out the TPV exploits Dean Hall mentioned. 

 

I don't like the fact that you constantly suggest that 3rd person player would not want to play on high difficulties. They want and do so.

 

 

No they really don't. It's like my friend who thinks going into a dungeon in DDO without a healer or below 6 players(the content is built to challenge 4-5 players) is silly. TPV is easier to play in and avoid zombies. Now, that is ignoring those that get sick in FPV for some bizarre reason not related to the things they can disable. 

 

There are other things you can do - set yourself an objective(s). Try to stay alive for as long as you can but going to all the high risk areas. Setting up a network of tents, repairing vehicles - the game is never ending, there is no end game so eventually you have to set yourself objectives because you're surviving now.

 

When I log in I have things I want to do in that gaming session, or my mates and i decide on something. We move on foot so we get to see a lot more as well. The map is quite stunning in places.

 

Oh, I do. My point was more that I was saying I could get geared fairly easily in TPV and while I might find something to do, others go, "Well, I guess I'll go find someone to kill."

 

 

It's an interview with TripWire CEO who make red orchestra - He argues how COD ruins FPS's because of the entirely unrealistic movements in those games. People cannot spin 360 in  a second, you cannot spin 360 on the floor either, neither can you sprint in one direction only to turn 90 degrees in an instant.

 

As gamers we are used to twitch style shooting so when you play games like Arma or red orchestra, those "clunky movements" are more like real life. Read the interview it's pretty good and fair.

 

This would be why I don't play CoD, despite the claims that because I support FPV I must be a FPS CoD fan. 

[mercules 1290]

Yeh but we established that polls are only valid if they back up your argument.  If not you can dismiss them.

 

Well, only children take that stance. I've posted polls to other forums and then had to go with what it told me. 

[Jex 1104]

Yeh but we established that polls are only valid if they back up your argument.  If not you can dismiss them.

 

If the overwhelming majority voted No, I would eat that big banana up there. We're concerned with the truth and reality after all, not making up blind assertions about "sales" and then using an unsupported statistic to support an unsubstantiated claim.

 

It's not an argument. It's baseless, is unsupported by any evidence and should be dropped. What this thread is basically supporting is someone making something up that is fiction and then everyone else arguing about it.

 

"Teapots shouldn't be red with yellow stripes, there will be less sales"

 

"But it's the only teapot in existence, people will have to buy it if they want a cup of tea!"

 

1200 posts later

 

"Grrrrrr...." ;)

[liquidmind 320]

I still think the whole debate is misplaced.

 

Currently everyone thinks about A and/or B. consequentially, either everyone agrees on both being good (not happening atm) or all have to agree that one goes (not going to happen either).

 

The big issue, and that's raised several times in the forum and in the video, for a PVP-Shooter, that's goal is realism, first-person-only is the only option, while a character-based roleplaying-game (which are traditionally singleplayer) work very well in 3rd person.  In a time, where Games aren't entirely traditional but very often merges of existing gameplay-concepts, dayZ was developed to be an open sandbox survival/pvp/crafting/building game. Due to technical reasons and the fact that it is a mod for a military FPS has in it's mod-alpha more aspects of that than of any of the other targeted features. Still it has attracted players from all of those fields who now need to coexist in the same community.

 

The whole question about what view should be used is in the classification of the game. It's an sandbox-survival-fps-crafting-game. It can be played as a whole game or as each individual part. Depending on how it is played, it makes more sense to use one or the other view. One a lot more valuable question that could be asked instead would be: How could we make 1st person and 3rd person so they each are the best they can be and how do we organize servers and game-modes so that everyone can play the type of DayZ he wants to play.

Edited August 30, 2013 by liquidmind