First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[dsi24 227]

Some guys of you may not want to believe but being realistc at all cost in every regards is

1) more complex and difficult as one may think and

2) doesn't always work as a game and

3) is most of the time not very interesting.

You're confounding realism and authenticity. Realism is being, well, realistic; The same as real life. Authenticity is being similar to or very reminiscent of reality; Worthy of accepting as reality, even if it technically isn't real.

Third person is neither realistic nor authentic. An invisible camera is impossible. The abilities third person gives you are in no way like real life.

First person is much more realistic, and is authentic. While you're actually seeing from the location of your eyes, a screen can never act like eyes, the edges of your FoV aren't blurred nor do they lack color like the way we see in reality. It is authentic because it forces players to act in a similar way to real life.

[Ken Bean 174]

You're confounding realism and authenticity. Realism is being, well, realistic; The same as real life. Authenticity is being similar to or very reminiscent of reality; Worthy of accepting as reality, even if it technically isn't real.

Third person is neither realistic nor authentic. An invisible camera is impossible. The abilities third person gives you are in no way like real life.

First person is much more realistic, and is authentic. While you're actually seeing from the location of your eyes, a screen can never act like eyes, the edges of your FoV aren't blurred nor do they lack color like the way we see in reality. It is authentic because it forces players to act in a similar way to real life.

 

Thank you sir, I noted your say and promise to consider this. I still want to add that things which don't exists in real life can exist in games. And this is not wrong in every case. 3rd person basically works very well as gameplay element. There is that ugly tiny exploit which is being abused just from the moraly twisted folks, which might be tweaked in a nifty manner, but don't say its something that would be per default barred out. It's just difficult.

 

 

--

The more I think about, a mechanic like this could work:

 

- If the player stands upright and is running upright, the 3rd person cam stays as it is.

- If the player is crouching (standing still or moving), the cam is zooming in, like you would tab numpad +

----> And if the player looks left or right, the body automatically bends over into the oposite direction.

(If the player looks to the right, the upper body bends to the left. Like leaning out of the cover.)

- If the player is lying, the 3rd person cam goes straight top down, so no angel offers a view to forward, backward, left or right. But you can see you big fat ass like god would see it and even your feet and the end of your weapon.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[dsi24 227]

Thank you sir, I noted your say and promise to consider this. I still want to add that things which don't exists in real life can exist in games. And this is not wrong in every case. 3rd person basically works very well as gameplay element. There is that ugly tiny exploit which is being abused just from the moraly twisted folks, which might be tweaked in a nifty manner, but don't say its something that would be per default barred out.

How would you fix third person that would stop people from exploiting it and also not make third person horrible to use? Invisible people popping up in the middle of your screen? Locking the camera so you can't even look at your entire character? Forcing perspectives so you get ripped out of perspective when you change stance?

That system is still incredibly exploitable, it basically does nothing except change the animations for swinging your view around in third person from "head swinging around in place 3 meters away from the door" to "upper body swinging around in place 3 meters away from the door"

Edited August 30, 2013 by Dsi1

[Jamz 253]

How would you fix third person that would stop people from exploiting it and also not make third person horrible to use? Invisible people popping up in the middle of your screen? Locking the camera so you can't even look at your entire character? Forcing perspectives so you get ripped out of perspective when you change stance?

 

Er sorry to chop in here but this is kind of irrelevant too. If third person is changed in a way that fixes its exploits then it doesn't matter if some people don't like how it is, you can use FPV without an issue. That after all is the point. Besides, if it turns out that TPV can't be fixed in an adequate way then removal altogether will still be an option, but at least they tried to make it work.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Jamz

[dsi24 227]

Er sorry to chop in here but this is kind of irrelevant too. If third person is changed in a way that fixes its exploits then it doesn't matter if some people don't like how it is, you can use FPV without an issue. That after all is the point. Besides, it it turns out that TPV can't be fixed in an adequate way then removal alltogether will still be an option, but at least they tried to make it work.

Spoilers: you can actually think about things before doing them. Why waste development time and money on a fruitless effort? Dontcha think that, somewhere, someone, some company, would have made a good TPV/FPV game where TPV isn't all powerful? Why do you think this is any different?

[sobieski12 835]

Spoilers: you can actually think about things before doing them. Why waste development time and money on a fruitless effort? Dontcha think that, somewhere, someone, some company, would have made a good TPV/FPV game where TPV isn't all powerful? Why do you think this is any different?

 

Exactly that is the problem with a FPV/TPV compromise.

* Remove the TPV and focus on more pressing issues.

 

The only people that would be upset about the removal of the third person camera are those who exploit this tool in pvp.

* As for the community saying that it builds character, it's funny joke.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Sobieski12

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Exactly that is the problem with a FPV/TPV compromise.

* Remove the TPV and focus on more pressing issues.

 

The only people that would be upset about the removal of the third person camera are those who exploit this tool in pvp.

* As for the community saying that it builds character, it's funny joke.

could not agree more. All of those who cry for TPV not to be removed are ultimately used to use it to exploit, so they feel like they cannot even play the game without it.

 

as imo, without it, less people would go after killing others around just "for fun". (so less KoS)

Edited August 30, 2013 by SoulHunter

[Ken Bean 174]

4 player on DE 128. My sig actually works!

 

 

@Sobjeski12 & SoulHunter & Dsi1

What do you think about my proposal at post #1452?

It would reduce the abuse of the "exploit" dramaticaly if the player is lying or crouching.

 

Could you life with this mechanic?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

 simply put who are you to decide what is a valid reason for prefering 1 view point to the other ???

 

all you guys are the same, you repost the opposing view then throw the personal bias in at the end. tainting your entire post.

 

leave out the bias and simply accept you have an opinion and respect that others do aswell.

 

my preference for 3rd person is a choice i like its not a GODAM crutch.. same as some people prefer pvp/KoS and some dont.

 

not PVPing isnt a crutch either.. its a preference.

 

Not all opinions are valid though. That is what you need to realize. You can have an opinion that your next door neighbor is a horrible person but without VALID REASONS for said opinion you are not going to convince anyone else. Something is not valid just because it is an opinion. Something isn't valid just because you prefer it. 

You keep throwing up, "Because I prefer it that way." but I keep looking for a reason WHY you believe it is better. What valid arguments can you offer for TPV being prefered by you to FPV? 

"It's better because I like it."

Okay, why do you like it?

"Because it is better." 

This is what you keep saying. 

 

[Ken Bean 174]

Not all opinions are valid though. That is what you need to realize. You can have an opinion that your next door neighbor is a horrible person but without VALID REASONS for said opinion you are not going to convince anyone else. Something is not valid just because it is an opinion. Something isn't valid just because you prefer it. 

You keep throwing up, "Because I prefer it that way." but I keep looking for a reason WHY you believe it is better. What valid arguments can you offer for TPV being prefered by you to FPV? 

"It's better because I like it."

Okay, why do you like it?

"Because it is better." 

This is what you keep saying. 

 

 

What do you think about my proposal at post #1452?

 

Could you life with this mechanic?

 

Point is, you wouldn't need to use it and if the other players do, would you care?

[sobieski12 835]

4 player on DE 128. My sig actually works!

 

 

@Sobjeski12 & SoulHunter & Dsi1

What do you think about my proposal at post #1452?

It would reduce the abuse of the "exploit" dramaticaly if the player is lying or crouching.

 

Could you life with this mechanic?

 

Well rocket is already implementing this FPV mechanic, of which is fine really. It will reduce the campers on top of the various hospitals and the industrial buildings of Cherno.

 

But the TPV while standing is still an on-going problem.

* So to answer the question , No.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Sobieski12

[Jamz 253]

Spoilers: you can actually think about things before doing them. Why waste development time and money on a fruitless effort? Dontcha think that, somewhere, someone, some company, would have made a good TPV/FPV game where TPV isn't all powerful? Why do you think this is any different?

 

That's easy, simply because there is no other game like this. It is particularly important in DayZ for there to be an exploit free third person view, which is why it's an issue being worked on. Also that attitude is a defeatest attitude which games designers just wouldn't have.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Jamz

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

No way Rocket want to run two hives.

 

People also play third person for the same reason they play racing games in third person. You're most likely worse off driving in third person, but not everyone wants to look at a stupid dashboard for thirty laps, they wanna see some chrome, some rims, flaming exhaustion pipes, dust and smoke.

 

ArmA 3's first person view is so good, if could pass off as COD cinematic shooter, but a lot of people will still enjoy ArmA 3 in third person mode, because they enjoy looking as the SF operator's HD butt, when they do reload animations. Playing in third person is a trade off, because you're gimping yourself in reaction time and accuracy, but it's a trade off many are willing to make, because the visual experience is much more appealing.

 

Renaming Veteran mode to n00b mode wont make a difference, you wont get more first person players by renaming elite to "über hardcore real deal been there done that wet work badass assassin of the sergeant degree." You can't shame people into playing first person, because the bottom line is, all the guys wanting to pass themselves off as hardcore pros, the 3000 people who liked Dslyexci's video, at the end of the day you'll find all these ninjas on a third person server.

 

"gimping yourself in reaction time and accuracy" Not entirely. You spot people sooner in third person generally. So in reality you have more time to react. Accuracy is also not affected since you can with 1 click of a mouse, be in first person view with the same accuracy as anyone.

 

Slight bit of hypocrisy there, talking about shaming 3rd person players being useless, while doing it to 1st person players in the same paragraph. You guys don't like being called noobs, well I personally don't enjoy being painted as some kind of super hardcore ninja assassin special operator. I'm one of the friendliest players in DayZ, with no interest in PVP or being all that stealthy. Just like a third person player can be an amazingly good killing machine that hunts down Bandits and saves fresh spawns from them.

 

Just cause we like one viewpoint, doesn't mean we fit a profile.

[Ken Bean 174]

Well rocket is already implementing this FPV mechanic, of which is fine really. It will reduce the campers on top of the various hospitals and the industrial buildings of Cherno.

 

But the TPV while standing is still an on-going problem.

* So to answer the question , No.

 

So as it is, you couldn't life with it.

 

What are the conditions which must be met, that you could?

 

Whats the major point of concern?

 

Given we want to reach equal chances between 3rd person user and 1st person user.

 

Is while crouching that view okay?

http://1.1.1.4/bmi/www.loaditup.de/files/784245_3ayd9tdku7.jpg

 

While standing is tricky. Usually you cant hide behind small wals, as you stand way out, but those corners of buildings or walls which are taller than a player, it still can be abused.

 

Might be kind of a cover system? Lets say on walls or buildings etc the player goes in cover, meaning certain positions would use a certain cam view/angle which offers very restricted viewpoints?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[sobieski12 835]

So as it is, you couldn't life with it.

* I wouldn't deal with it, is a better way to phrase it.

What are the conditions which must be met, that you could?

* Remove TPV

Whats the major point of concern?

* Remove the exploitative advantages of the third person camera.

Given we want to reach equal chances between 3rd person user and 1st person user.

* I don't see any legit reason to keep the TPV. But if you going to make a PVE server keep it, I could care-less.

* But since this game is based around PVP and with every single life being valuable. It's only fair that everyone is brought to an equal footing in regards to PVP combat.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Sobieski12

[Ken Bean 174]

 

So as it is, you couldn't life with it.

* I wouldn't deal with it, is a better way to phrase it.

What are the conditions which must be met, that you could?

* Remove TPV

Whats the major point of concern?

* Remove the exploitative advantages of the third person camera.

Given we want to reach equal chances between 3rd person user and 1st person user.

* I don't see any legit reason to keep the TPV. But if you going to make a PVE server keep it, I could cares-less.

* But since this game is based around PVP and with every single life being valuable. It's only fair that everyone is brought to an equal footing in regards to PVP combat.

 

 

Lets explore the room or condition in wich both philosophies could coexist.

 

What do you think about a cover system?

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

What do you think about my proposal at post #1452?

It would reduce the abuse of the "exploit" dramaticaly if the player is lying or crouching.

 

Could you life with this mechanic?

I cannot life with that mechanic because I dont know what lifing means.

 

I also think that this would serve at no purpose at all. People mostly abuse the exploits of TPV while standing still in the first place. So that would solve anything at all.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Lets explore the room or condition in wich both philosophies could coexist.

 

What do you think about a cover system?

 

Address all the problems that Dslyecxi brought up in his video, work in your desire for seeing yourself. Then propose something that would work for both of us.

 

You know where our issues lay with regards to third person view, we shouldn't need to keep repeating ourselves.

Edited August 30, 2013 by bad_mojo

[Ken Bean 174]

I cannot life with that mechanic because I dont know what lifing means.

 

I also think that this would serve at no purpose at all. People mostly abuse the exploits of TPV while standing still in the first place. So that would solve anything at all.

 

What about if a player, who spots you while he is in 3rd person cam, gives away his position by making a natural sound like coughing? You'd be warned and know the direction.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[sobieski12 835]

Lets explore the room or condition in wich both philosophies could coexist.

 

What do you think about a cover system?

 

Explain by what you mean by the cover system?

* I personally like the cover system by looking through the 1st person view, your not going to be standing in the middle of the tree in scouting an area. With the FPV, you are forced to expose your self to actually scout various areas. This is why I really appreciate the FPV in regards to DayZ, no longer can you use cheap tactics to overcome an enemy.

 

As to cover any expose areas, I generally look around in FPV if I am not sticking anything through a wall or anything. So that should answer that question.

[sobieski12 835]

What about if a player, who spots you while he is in 3rd person cam, gives away his position by making a natural sound like coughing? You'd be warned and know the direction.

 

Does that even matter... Your going to die anyway due to being spotted by the 3rd person camera.

* At-least your going to get a bullet from the front instead of the back, I guess.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

What about if a player, who spots you while he is in 3rd person cam, gives away his position by making a natural sound like coughing? You'd be warned and know the direction.

That would be far unrealistic and almost any of those who support TPV would not like such a thing to be implemented (even Rocket I'd assume). It would mean putting someone in disadvantage due to the way they prefer playing the game.

 

It would be more okayish if the time limit on TPV usage would be added. Like, if there is some people around in a radius of 1km, you cannot use it. And if you fired a gun, you'll have to wait for about 10 minutes before being able to use it.

[Ken Bean 174]

Explain by what you mean by the cover system?

* I personally like the cover system by looking through the 1st person view, your not going to be standing in the middle of the tree in scouting an area. With the FPV, you are forced to expose your self to actually scout various areas. This is why I really appreciate the FPV in regards to DayZ, no longer can you use cheap tactics to overcome an enemy.

 

As to cover any expose areas, I generally look around in FPV if I am not sticking anything through a wall or anything. So that should answer that question.

 

 

Maybe both types automatically go into cover near a wall or corner and have a certain pose which offers a certain view. The view is very restricted and tries to simulate real viewpoints and angles.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Two wrong don't make a right. Coughing for no reason is wrong, seeing people with a magic floating eye is wrong.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Two wrong don't make a right. Coughing for no reason is wrong, seeing people with a magic floating eye is wrong.

Exactly my point.