First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Ken Bean 174]

take 2 guys ;)

 

1st guy name bob is play 1st person server :(

2nd guy name pete is play 3rd person server :)

 

pete see zeds before bob

pete see loots before bob

pete see player before bob

pete see car before bob

pete see round corner stay hide, bob need expose himself for look round corner

pete can stay inside house and look around outside, bob need to go out from house to look around outside

pete can look over wall, bob need to run round to other side to see over wall

 

 

pete play easier way, is not debate for this is fact :thumbsup:  :P

 

look again difficult setting list I put before, is one quote of this top of page ^^  top half is first person bottom half is 3rd person ;)

 

is fact, why you deny this, is ok for me you want to play easy way, I don't give fucks what you do but stop please make pretend 3rd person is not easy mode. > :(

3rd person is not hardcore, is not normal is easy way :rolleyes:

 

 

EASY WAY!!!! :lol:

 

 

The reason for this is btw, that the 1st person view is broken.

 

The 1st person view is designed for ArmA, not for DayZ, where you have to find the needle in the haystack.

 

The wall "hack exploit thing" also only really desturbs certain pvp situations (can also be used for good). Zeds can be (and are) aggro and dangerous in both cases.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

As I suspected but I had to try .

cheers

Dude, if you'd actually tried we wouldn't be on page 68.

[wild_man 4442]

... 1st person view is broken.....

 

 

is fix in SA :lol: 

[tommes 331]

The reason for this is btw, that the 1st person view is broken.

FPV is not broken. It should get some refinement maybe, but you can play perfectly with it alreay. Just increasing the frames per second would do wonders because usually you compensate for the lack of FOV with quick turns.

If you can play with a 3 monitor setup and maybe something like TrackIR with decent framerates and it would be just awesome.

[Ken Bean 174]

is fix in SA :lol: 

 

Good, then you'll finally see that 1st person is not a higher difficulty. ;)

[fluxley 2228]

DayZ players are split into two base camps on PvP: the ones seeking PvP and the ones avoiding it.

They are als split into two base camps on 3rd person view. I believe PvP'ers are the same as 1st person players and therefore the 3rd person lovers belong to the PvP-avoiders.

 

 

I don't go looking for pvp but i do greatly prefer first person. the same as others who have already posted in this thread.

[fluxley 2228]

I'd be fine with third-person as long as they fixed the viewable area.

With third-person able to peek over walls, through walls, round corners etc without your character physically doing it, it trvialises a lot of encounters.

If third-person view was fixed to the same as first-person and prevented you from peeking over walls, etc., I'd be fine with it.

The first-person view needs a little FOV tweak but that's about it.

 

I would add that having a full range of stances available like in arma 3 would add a lot to the first person experience.

[wild_man 4442]

...1st person is not a higher difficulty. ...

is like guy with brain of baby this one :D

 

he think see over wall don't make game easier :o

 

he think see more FOV don't make game easier :huh:

   

he think play 3rd person float behind character like butterfly see everything aroung corner stay invisible like magic don't make game easier :o

 

 

is typical like addict make deny is no problem :P

[DemonGroover 8836]

[sarcasm]

 

Maybe DayZ needs a Batman-style detective mode (also seen in the upcoming game The Division).

 

That way 1st person can see through walls while 3rd can remain seeing over them. A fair compromise.

 

[/sarcasm]

[tommes 331]

I don't go looking for pvp but i do greatly prefer first person. the same as others who have already posted in this thread.

Shades of grey. Probably more than fifty...

[Ken Bean 174]

is like guy with brain of baby this one :D

he think see over wall don't make game easier :o

he think see more FOV don't make game easier :huh:

he think play 3rd person float behind character like butterfly see everything aroung corner stay invisible like magic don't make game easier :o

is typical like addict make deny is no problem :P

As if you never played a difficult 3rd person game.

But anyway, what exactly you do demand?

Should 3rd person stay or be removed?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[rossums 2190]

I would add that having a full range of stances available like in arma 3 would add a lot to the first person experience.

It would definitely help.

I think the main problem is that there is a clear advantage using third-person, mainly due to the crazy large field of view, over and under obstacles in compared to the very limited view in first-person.

If they widened the field of view a bit and added the additional stances it would definitely enhance the current first-person experience which I feel is far too limited. I prefer using first person, it definitely gives a better experience but third-person just gives too much of an advantage, I hope they do put a lot of effort into FPV for the standalone.

[wild_man 4442]

But anyway, what exactly you do demand?

Should 3rd person stay or be removed?

I say before in this thread but I say again for you ;)

 

keep 3rd person but make 2 separate hive for first person and third person :thumbsup:  :D

 

this way what magic invisible guys doing don't affect me :rolleyes:

 

is good way, every guy get what he want, each guy have 2 character if he want :P

one character for hardcore survive simulate and 1 character for fun time survive simulate.

 

is win/win B)

[Ken Bean 174]

I say before in this thread but I say again for you ;)

keep 3rd person but make 2 separate hive for first person and third person :thumbsup: :D

this way what magic invisible guys doing don't affect me :rolleyes:

is good way, every guy get what he want, each guy have 2 character if he want :P

one character for hardcore survive simulate and 1 character for fun time survive simulate.

is win/win B)

Then I dont know why we argue. Its exactly my opinion as well. Someone said choice is good, I agree. ;)

Cool thing is, both hives could have its own difficulty settings.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[wild_man 4442]

Cool thing is, both hives could have its own difficulty settings.

yes, exact like this :thumbsup:

 

example waypoint on/off - crosshair on/off :P

 

I hope nametag and player show on map never go in SA >:(

[tommes 331]

this way what magic invisible guys doing don't affect me :rolleyes:

It will affect you. You will have split community with split servers. And people will be soft forced to play on 3rd person hive by some of their teammates like it is the case often enough right now. Maybe you can live with that effects, abut it will affect all of us some way.

[Nihilum 209]

I don't care wtf dev team employs as long as I have an FOV slider, and I don't have to worry about the prone bush wookies sitting on a roof with 350* field of view in third person, despite having their face balls deep in a slab of concrete while in first.


If the prone = third person idea is implemented, there needs to be a way to push grass down in front of you, or it will get fustrating fast. Or a better idea, would be a "peak" stance key to raise your head above the grass/low ledges. This would obviously make the persons head visible over the object, preserving functionality/viability of prone, with out making it cheap.


just my two cents.


V first mod to delete gets a cookie V

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nihilum

[Nihilum 209]

*edit, double post. weird. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nihilum

[wild_man 4442]

It will affect you. You will have split community with split servers. And people will be soft forced to play on 3rd person hive by some of their teammates like it is the case often enough right now. Maybe you can live with that effects, abut it will affect all of us some way.

is better than make some guys play way they don't like ;)

is better than now with community spread thin over too many version :o

 

is simple split, 1st only and 1st/3rd  :)

 

but guys can play both, for sure even hardcore badass sometime like no stress funtime play and maybe 3rd person guys after want to try maximum challenge :thumbsup:  :rolleyes:

 

point is don't mix hive because this shit not balance for fair way B)

Edited August 30, 2013 by KoS

[dallas 5195]

No way Rocket want to run two hives.

 

People also play third person for the same reason they play racing games in third person. You're most likely worse off driving in third person, but not everyone wants to look at a stupid dashboard for thirty laps, they wanna see some chrome, some rims, flaming exhaustion pipes, dust and smoke.

 

ArmA 3's first person view is so good, if could pass off as COD cinematic shooter, but a lot of people will still enjoy ArmA 3 in third person mode, because they enjoy looking as the SF operator's HD butt, when they do reload animations. Playing in third person is a trade off, because you're gimping yourself in reaction time and accuracy, but it's a trade off many are willing to make, because the visual experience is much more appealing.

 

Renaming Veteran mode to n00b mode wont make a difference, you wont get more first person players by renaming elite to "über hardcore real deal been there done that wet work badass assassin of the sergeant degree." You can't shame people into playing first person, because the bottom line is, all the guys wanting to pass themselves off as hardcore pros, the 3000 people who liked Dslyexci's video, at the end of the day you'll find all these ninjas on a third person server.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Dallas

[SMLE 39]

I'm genuinely sorry if I offended you.  It was meant in good humour to lighten the mood and is purely intended as a parody, it's not to be taken seriously at all, hence delivering it in the form of a cartoon.

 

Please rest assured that I take my position seriously.  In fact in this thread I've offered nothing but my honest thoughts (at length) and tried to back up those thoughts with well thought out arguments, I've also tried to provoke discussion and steer it in a more constructive direction a few times when it's become a tad aggressive.

 

Here's the abridged version of my thoughts on the matter all of which are in this thread, I would argue that you have chosen to skip over my points to pick up on individual sentences and repeat your "choice" mantra.  In that situation it's impossible to debate with you.

I just want to hear some nice ideas for maybe restricting the 3rd person cam a bit. Is that too much to ask?

I highly doubt Dean will completely remove the 3rd person cam but he has said they'll look at ways of changing how it works so that it can't be used to look around corners and and over walls etc.

With that in mind here is our/your chance to speak directly to the devs and let them know how you think that could be done, don't waste it by banging on about the same old shite for page after page. It's an issue that needs to be addressed, here's where you get to say how you think that could be achieved.

There are many things currently in the mod that are a direct side effect of it being a mod of Arma 2 (map markers, name plates, legs breaking in a gust of wind etc.) These weren't design choices for the mod, they are there by default. The SA isn't a mod so these issues need to be discussed as there is now an opportunity for the devs to build the game as they see fit.

Hint - Saying it doesn't need fixing is not a solution the devs are looking for.

I think I'll try to explain one last time why I think that the 3rd person cam as it is now is detrimental to gameplay.

For me it's not about realism, authenticity, being hardcore or an old-school DayZ hipster or any of the other things that get levelled at you when you dare to suggest changing something that has become the norm. It really is purely about gameplay and I think the 3rd person cam currently does need "fixing".

Here's one gameplay example where for me the 3rd person cam massively detracts from what could be potentially awesome gameplay scenario.

So you're in the new Cherno/Electro, scouring the streets for loot, moving from cover to cover and being a very careful and tactful player. Now let's remember that in the new Chrernarus almost every building is enterable and in the cities most of those buildings now have multiple floors with windows overlooking the streets. These vantage points (and there's now a lot of them) simply don't exist in the mod so currently you only really have a few rooftops to worry about.

Now a careful player will be keeping his eyes on the windows and rooftops looking for movement, potential snipers or just any general threat. You may even be part of a team, in which case it'd be wise to get one of your team mates constantly looking at the windows overlooking your position while you go about your business.

But there's a problem here. The 3rd person cam allows anyone inside those new interiors to look out of the windows and scan the surroundings without having to physically look out, they can just manipulate the cam to the right angle and stay completely hidden.

But hey, it's ok right? I have 3rd person cam too so it's fair right? Well not really no. I can't use my 3rd person cam to scan the inside of all of the buildings and vantage points around me so I'm now confronted by a street with many windows and rooftops, all of which could potentially have a player in them looking straight at me, the problem is there's no way of me knowing. It's now irrelevant how good my tactics are or how careful I am, I only have two choices: Avoid that street altogether or take a massive gamble and head down the street with no way of knowing if I'm being watched and potentially sniped.

Common sense dictates to me that I now have to avoid every major street with windows overlooking it because I simply have no way of detecting any potential threats there, it's just a massive gamble (more than it should be) everytime I enter one of those streets.

This is just one of countless scenarios I can think of in which the 3rd person cam (as it currently is) massively detracts from the potential gameplay in a certain situation.

I'm not arguing to have it removed, I'm saying in certain scenarios it need restricting so as to avoid situations like the one above.

No lol.

To stick with my fat kid analogy (your fault)... I just wouldn't fill my cupboards with crisps, pies and sweets. As a responsible parent I would make sure the choices that are available to him are sensible ones that aren't going to turn him into a bully-magnet at school.

Currently in my opinion, the mod has become that bloated kid who's parents don't know when to say no. Server admins have too much choice and the DayZ that many are currently playing is a bloated fatty with a high chance of becoming diabetic.

The SA offers the devs a chance to take back control of that experience and refine it. I'd like to see the 3rd person camera refined as part of that process or to labour the analogy a bit more to remove all the shit from the cupboards.

Remember that I'm not actually arguing for it (3rd person cam) to be removed, it's HIGHLY unlikely it will be, I would like to see it refined though because I feel that way it works currently is detrimental to gameplay.

Yeh agreed. Well the classic Arma2 indoor clunkiness already feels much better in the SA and that seems to be one major gripe with peeps that don't like 1st person view in DayZ.

I've been playing Arma 3 a lot recently and the vehicle mirrors really do give the awarness that was missing from Arma 2, not sure if it's something that can be introduced into the SA, I don't see why they wouldn't tbh.

Leaning out of windows would be cool too, for a well executed example of a game that does it well check out Euro Truck Simulator 2013.

Personally I'm not too fussed about the vehicle side of things though. I do prefer sticking to 1st person cam but my one and only gripe with the 3rd person cam is the way it can be used as an exploit which effects gameplay negatively, even if it's fair because we can all do it.

For anyone that missed it here's Deans recent thought's on the 1st vs 3rd debate:

Q: What about first/third person?

We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on.

Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit.

It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.

Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on.

Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..

I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand?

Q: What about yanking people out of third person when they get close to objects like trees, bushes, rocks, cars, trash piles, walls, buildings, etc

From a technical standpoint, this is very nasty because its going to either involve constantly polling for nearby objects and possibly raycasting also. It will have to be done serverside, adding to the poor servers increasing load. It will also result in a massive array of false positives and false negatives - as many map objects have no "object" status and are thus... not real objects to the game. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach at the minimum, at the maximum I'm proposing we put some context related limitations to 3rd person. Stance is easy to poll, and can actually be controlled in animation.

Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?

Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level.

Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game.

I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing.

Q: I feel like all of that can be accomplished in first person using freelook, especially hit location...

Tried the free look thing. It doesn't work. You can't see most of your body. You can't see your back, butt, in fact your whole back of body and the sides. Even when i used TrackIR not only could I not see most, but it was unnecessarily irritating. My friend was shot in the ass, he knew he was shot in the ass, and he knew exactly where he was shot. I'm not pulling all this from thin air, I felt like I really tried to consider all sides of this. And I'm just not convinced that removing it at the game level is the way to go. I think that the compromise will solve the worst of the offending.

Tldr; He likes the 3rd person cam and can see it has a place in the game but he's also very aware of how it can effect gameplay in a negative way so is looking at ways of dealing with that issue.

Yeh you do mention that a bit.

The thing is IMO you're only partially right. If true choice was indeed the way forward there'd be no point in them even attempting to make a game, they'd just say:

"well there's a computer, it has infinite possibilities so knock yourself out!"

Making a game is about good design and good design is as much about choosing what to omit from that design as it about what to include, more so in fact. We rely in them as game designers to create a world/experience we want to be a part of, that's thier job and an important part of that job is actually limiting our choices in certain ways. Games that try to please everyone all of the time usually fail because it's only by trying to focus the actual experience that you can make something truly worth playing.

If I go to a Chinese restaurant and see burgers and pizza on the menu then I'd leave. Why would I do that if choice is always a good thing? Well because I went there for Chinese food and I'm relying on the restaurant owners knowledge and experience to offer me a good menu. I want a menu with with choice but I'm also relying on the owners knowledge to refine my choice which will result in a better experience for me.

In fact an overly large menu is usually the sign of a bad restaurant because it displays lack of focus and/or confidence in what they're serving.

I think RedNome made a good point, we've been going around in circles for ages now and it's pretty clear who thinks what and that their views are unlikely to change in the near future.

The facts are this: The devs do feel that there is currently an issue with the way the 3rd person cam works but they (Dean specifically) likes playing using the 3rd person cam a lot. This isn't a new issue btw it's been discussed for years over on the BIS forums but it's more relevant to us right now because it may actually now be addressed during the SA development.

They will be looking at ways to refine/adjust the way the third person cam currently works. At this point it's kind of irrelevant now if we're happy about that or not because that's the course of action they've already decided on.

So with that in mind it would be more constructive for us to offer ways they could go about it.

Dean's unlikely to read through 40 pages of circular arguments but if we can form a decent list of suggestions and discuss the pro's and cons then I'm happy to compile that into something a bit more digestible than this thread and make sure he get's to read it.

Now I could carry on debating here because it's something I genuinely feel strongly about but atm I'm failing to see the point when some are choosing to completely ignore/counter the points I raise, it'll just result in me repeating myself over and over again and that's pretty pointless.

Much love.

Having re/read your spoiler end to end , I thought I should give a better reply after all the good work you did , maybe not the answer you wanted but atleast im being honest .

First thing you jump straight to a conclusion in your very first statment , when the question is about 1stp V 3rdp view styles , why did you instantly say 3rd person needed fixing .

Ok bear with me here please having now a fairly good feel for these boards I can see this is by far and away a place visited by first person shooter gamers hence the difference between the polls here and what is happening on the servers .

 My chances of getting a fair hearing here is I now realise near impossible , the people who are the problem have the ear of Mr Hall , a minority of FPS people who do not represent the player base only a tiny bit of it and they guard that access jealously .

 You have some really excellent ideas for fixing something that in the eyes of the vast majority of players is not broken .

     First person view is the play style that is in trouble why not put all those great ideas and energy into improving it so maybe more people will want to play that way .

     Is Mr Hall reacting to presure from the FPS lobby and would he think differently if he had the full story well now is the time to find out while development is ongoing but my attempts have been blocked or shouted down by juvinile fanboys .

   I thought I was not explaining myself clearly but I now see you guys know exactly what im talking about and its not part of your aggenda . (when I say you I dont mean you personally Fraggle ) .

   Thats it thats all , Ill still watch this thread but Ill have to find a better way/place with not so much vested interest to give feedback .

cheers

p.s. I did read all your posts origionally Fraggle but I couldnt just keep saying your missing the point all the time .

Try thinking outside the box sometimes it will set you free.

[Vicco 123]

So you're in the new Cherno/Electro, scouring the streets for loot, moving from cover to cover and being a very careful and tactful player. Now let's remember that in the new Chrernarus almost every building is enterable and in the cities most of those buildings now have multiple floors with windows overlooking the streets. These vantage points (and there's now a lot of them) simply don't exist in the mod so currently you only really have a few rooftops to worry about.

In that many-windowed environment you "may" have a valid point. It also seems it would only be designed that way as a PvP hotspot. 1P campers will also look out those windows with a lean. Good leaning is very hard to detect.

The current mod has very limited camping spots for 3P peekers, and most - if not all - are known by moderately seasoned players, and neutralized by constantly moving.

A camper has to be very accurate when shooting at a moving and aware player.

Most aren't, and they give away their position, where they have trapped themselves. Then the advantage swings.

Outside of camping, which will always be with us, the aware player who spots the other guy first will always have the advantage, all else equal.

He won't need 3P at all to get within kill range of the other guy.

What puzzles me is this. Good players making DayZ YouTube vids in 3P never complain about 3P. Or about campers. They kill them.

By using their awareness, movement and good shooting skills.

When they fail and get killed themselves, they blame themselves.

Though I don't claim to be at their level, I have the same attitude. Won't hear me complaining about 3P peekers.

It's just part of DayZ to me. If SA is 1P only, it won't bother me at all - if the game works.

Thanks for that full Rocket 1P/3P interview. Hadn't seen that. I probably interpreted it differently than you.

My interpretation is that Rocket was simply "tolerating" the interviewer's questions, and making political "concessions"

about 3P. I really thinks he likes it as is, and perhaps views those wanting 1P only as "crybabies."

Probably sees it as a simple "camping" issue, which can't be eliminated, and is always an element in PvP.

But that's my interpretation, and only Rocket knows. He appears politically skillful.

I note he made absolutely no guarantees about SA and 3P. His main bending point was tweaking the prone view.

Also noted he doesn't think people who prefer 3P do so to "cheat." I don't so either, and if a fluid method could be found to solve the so-called "exploits" in 3P, you will find only a few complaining about that.

I think the SA is in good hands. And the current mod is fine, except for infection/AB balance.

[Jex 1104]

However, TPV makes it so easy for me to avoid zombies I can simply zig zag through town and loot at will. It makes the game easier for me. That leads me to the boredom route quicker and leaves less gap between new spawn and "I have everything I need... now what?" I think the SA will be doing other things to combat that already, but removing the aspects of 3rd person that make it into "easy mode" for avoiding danger would be yet another tool to combat boredom from having everything you need. 

 

There are other things you can do - set yourself an objective(s). Try to stay alive for as long as you can but going to all the high risk areas. Setting up a network of tents, repairing vehicles - the game is never ending, there is no end game so eventually you have to set yourself objectives because you're surviving now.

 

When I log in I have things I want to do in that gaming session, or my mates and i decide on something. We move on foot so we get to see a lot more as well. The map is quite stunning in places.

[Vicco 123]

No way Rocket want to run two hives.

 

People also play third person for the same reason they play racing games in third person. You're most likely worse off driving in third person, but not everyone wants to look at a stupid dashboard for thirty laps, they wanna see some chrome, some rims, flaming exhaustion pipes, dust and smoke.

 

ArmA 3's first person view is so good, if could pass off as COD cinematic shooter, but a lot of people will still enjoy ArmA 3 in third person mode, because they enjoy looking as the SF operator's HD butt, when they do reload animations. Playing in third person is a trade off, because you're gimping yourself in reaction time and accuracy, but it's a trade off many are willing to make, because the visual experience is much more appealing.

 

Renaming Veteran mode to n00b mode wont make a difference, you wont get more first person players by renaming elite to "über hardcore real deal been there done that wet work badass assassin of the sergeant degree." You can't shame people into playing first person, because the bottom line is, all the guys wanting to pass themselves off as hardcore pros, the 3000 people who liked Dslyexci's video, at the end of the day you'll find all these ninjas on a third person server.

Ain't it the truth.

[Wayze 549]

The reason for this is btw, that the 1st person view is broken.

Bullsh*t. We all played first person at the beginning and everyone was able to survive.