First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Heatofbattle 49]

Omfg this again....

When will you people realize they cant afford to alienate 90% of the playerbase, maybe they could with 100000+ players per week, but we have 5000 a day max now.

The game sold 3 million, and after the original hype, no one cares or plays it anymore

[sneakydudes 278]

for those that don't remember, soe has had to post about problems related to seizures some years ago. Some players experienced seizures, and if i can remember right one died.

 

 

Read the comments, on a bs study see how many suffer without reading all of it.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.174468-Study-Concludes-That-Videogames-Dont-Cause-Headaches

 

Wiki on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game-related_health_problems

 

Another article

http://www.oddee.com/item_98407.aspx

 

Read the part,

Video games can cause vision problems. Extensive viewing of any screen causes eye strain, and prolonged computer use could also be linked to glaucoma, especially among users who are near-sighted. Staring at a bright screen is very harmful to the physical components of the eye, especially because during computing sessions we tend to stop blinking and start staring, which makes our eyes strain and dry out.

 

Near-sighted or Far-sighted, or tunnel vision might cause some headaches.

 

Not all video games cause this, as i had played Everquest for many years in 1p, but later had to switch to 3p. It was mainly because i was getting extreme headaches while watching all areas of my 1p character.

 

http://www.video-game-addiction.org/physical-consequences.html

 

For those that don't know or looking for excuses, we wont join your 1p servers we will mod our servers 1p/3p because of it.

and this 1p topic is really premature and so is 3p for others. Its going to be modded, and you can play on your 1p servers or 3p servers all you want.

 

Those articles are not great links to studies, however it has been known that some excessive movement or flickering can cause issues.

 

Especially in near-sighted, far-sighted and tunnel vision. I sometimes do suffer from that, not sure why i have great eyes. Maybe i strain on something to much? unknown as nobody really has much of a solution for anything.

 

Was it not one of our very own members on the forums here posted about how arma 2-3 movements vrs dayz was way to quick? i sure we can dig up that topic. Maybe this is what we see....

Whom knows but to avoid it and expect us to suffer??

 

ill take my money back now if Dayz devs are willing to paypal it to me.

 

they wont, because they wont force 1p or 3p on people.... Wish a dev would squash these threads, they provoke too many arguments.

Edited December 5, 2015 by TheSneakyDude

[BeefBacon 1185]

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/dec/19/video-games-makes-me-sick

 

A news article that doesn't appear to provide a link to the study... and as a side note the author apparently tried a homeopathic treatment - which is hilarious. It's about as good a source as "there's a study that shows that 0 - 100% of people suffer from haemorrhoids, therefore my point is proven"

 

I also get motion sick. I demand that CSGO have a third person mode. It won't damage the gameplay at all, no sir.

 

 

I also find it amusing how many people are whining about how all public servers will be 1pp. All official servers. Not all public servers. Good job, guys.

 

The devs will never force 1pp. Some consider that a shame, which is understandable. I think it's a shame that 3pp was ever included in the first place, but it'd be unfair to remove it now that so many cling onto it for dear life, threatening to leave if it's taken away from them. DayZ is supposed to be played in 1pp, but 3pp has had its claws dug into DayZ since the mod. It's detrimental to PvP and PvE. It has its benefits, of course. I like being able to see my character running about... okay so it has one benefit, unless you're one of the 50% of people who projectile vomits at the very thought of a first-person shooter.

 

If I could play 1pp on a private server I would. Lucky for me, 1pp servers are hugely depopulated so I'm forced to play 3pp. No doubt that's the case for many 1pp players who don't necessarily want to join a nearly empty server in the hopes that the other 1pp players might also want to help populate a single 1pp server amongst a sea of people who leak from every orifice if they can't see the back of their character's head.

 

Also, pro tip: You can turn off head bob. I keep it on a teeny tiny bit (like a few pixels' worth of the slider) but you can completely disable it.

 

3pp doesn't improve your FoV. That it a lie. It improves awareness of your immediate surroundings within a couple of feet at the cost of being able to peek over and around obstacles, but it doesn't improve FoV.

 

Arguing "I need to be able to see if I'm in cover" it also a silly argument, as you can't see if you're in cover in real life either. There's a reason why when kids play hide and seek, and they hide behind the curtain, their feet stick out. As it turns out, children don't have a third-person perspective either. I know, right? Weird. You can use 'alt' to look at your body, which might help. Some people say that in 1pp you see out of your neck rather than your eyes, so that should be addressed.

 

Besides being honest and saying that you like being able to peek over walls, the best argument in favour of 3pp is that you get to see your character in the environment. In a game where your character is so customisable, it seems a bit of a waste to only be able to see your character in the inventory screen or on the game menu. When I play 1pp, it's actually pretty rewarding to see my character when I log off. As such, when I play 3pp I'm pretty much always in 3pp, as running across endless fields is much better when you can see how badass your character is. But then I don't think that's a good argument. The issues that 3pp presents are not outweighed by "but my character looks pretty." 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

3PP is not going to be removed. Yes, even with all of the improvements, 3PP is inherently exploitative because you see things that you "shouldn't" (at eye level.) No, just because everyone on a 3PP-enabled server can use it does not make it balanced. No, these sparse medical issues are not prolific enough to actually be a counter argument to making the entire game 1PP only. No, wanting to look at your character is not a valid argument either.

 

It has a lot of problems, sure, but I can't exactly say that the staunch supporters of removing 3PP view are making a great argument, either. No. Elitism isn't a logical position - you aren't a better person or a "real DayZ player" because you play 1PP-only. And no, it's not the problem of other players that you don't have enough people to play with (this is the same case with those who argue that modding should not be allowed or selectively restricted.)

 

Regardless of who's "more right", the developers have said countless times that it will not be removed, as they support player freedom. There is no point in continuing to argue about it.

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

Regardless of who's "more right", the developers have said countless times that it will not be removed, as they support player freedom. There is no point in continuing to argue about it.

Your post has some other good points, but I feel obliged to point out that just because the developers have said it time and time again doesn't mean it will remain true. If they did a total 180 tomorrow, they'd be within their rights, regardless of how much of the community might want to crucify them for it.

For my two cents, I prefer 1pp, and I prefer it for its immersion factor. That's a personal thing, though, as immersion is a highly subjective topic. That being said, I ran with a dude in the mod and early SA days who refused to play 1pp, so I'm not without experience at 3pp. I find 3pp lends itself much more heavily to a PvP style, as the ability to see what's going on without a tradeoff in risk shifts all the advantages to the camper.

Now, in warfare, it used to be the case that well-timed offensives often carried a battle, and sometimes a siege. For basic examples, see Alexander the Great's Hammer and Anvil tactics, or Mithridates strengthening his flanks, ordering his mean to charge the Persians, and wrapping their line up from both sides. For exceptions to this, see the Battle of Crecy, which I'll come back to in a moment.

 

These days, in nearly every conflict since the Gatling Gun became widely distributed, the defender has a massive advantage. If you craft the battlefield in favour of your heavy weapons emplacements, these heavy weapons effectively make one or a few soldiers manning them as strong as dozens or more enemies who simply can't stand up to its power. Even the invention of decent rifles made charging an enemy difficult unless you had terrain on your side - imagine trying to run across a football field while a dozen people are shooting at you.

 

Now, in Crecy, the mixture of terrain and literally thousands of skilled longbow archers led to an interesting situation - since the French couldn't charge through the trees, the archers were largely protected, and essentially functioned in the same capacity as modern machine-guns: forcing enemies to take cover. This cause the men in the back of the French clusterfuck to crowd up against the well-armoured knights in front, who were fighting in what was probably a lot of mud, and the knights essentially got trampled, suffocated, or were pressed so close to the front by those behind them that the lighter-armoured but highly experienced English men-at-arms were able to wrestle them, get their helmets off, and take them hostage.

 

This is kind of what defensive gun emplacements do. But battles like Crecy were extremely rare till WWI. Once WWI came around, two things helped to change the situation:

1. The speed with which gun emplacements could be set up. The English had time to prepare at Crecy, but in WWI the time to prepare a gun emplacement was drastically reduced - now you just need to shovel out a hole, put decent sandbags around it, and cart a machine-gun up to it, which is a two-man, two-hour job at most, assuming reasonably ideal conditions. It's a lot faster to create those defensive emplacements.

2. They had an army. It can't be over-stated how important having buddies is to the process. A gun emplacement on its own is highly vulnerable to flanking. Anytime you keyhole yourself, you've got a huge advantage right at the front, but massive weaknesses at the sides. You have to have someone protecting your sides or you'll soon be dead, taking few enemies with you.

 

The main problem I see with 3pp is that it simulates, for free, this second option. By giving people risk-free views of the battlefield, you cut out the ability of attackers to execute many manoeuvres that would otherwise make perfect sense in the situation. Perhaps I just like this stuff too much, but having these manoeuvres at my disposal but realising none of them will work because the defender may as well have satellite coverage of the battlefield definitely kills my immersion. It allows defenders to take up what would normally be a suicidal position, but they can hold it because they'll always have a decent shot at stopping a flank - a flank that, realistically, has a very high chance of success. It lets defenders set up ambushes that don't make logical sense outside of the very narrow confines of DayZ with 3pp enabled.

 

This is largely just personal opinion, but I think a bold attacker should have a chance to capitalise upon the defender's lethargy, limited awareness, limited arena of action, or over-confidence with clever tactics and quick, unhesitating action. What we have now is a situation in which the majority of DayZ servers, streamers, and really its public face portrays a reward only for those who wait patiently, who take no risks but gain all the benefits of those risks. Attackers should always be taking a risk, but should also have a shot at that risk paying off. At the moment, attackers taking risks just die poorly, with no chance at glory or an upset victory.

 

And given that useful military weapons are going to get rarer and rarer as time goes on, I'd like to think that the underdog has a chance if they can pull superior tactics. There's no such thing as over-confidence for a defender now - the only exception is when the attacker has friends who can flank before the defender even knows he's fighting a group. In lone-wolf engagements, which I suggest are most common, if the defender engages and doesn't immediately kill you, you're unlikely to flank him because he can clearly see your options for retreat and attack, without having had to put any effort or risk in for it. In real life, not taking risks is great, but in a video game I interpret not taking risks as a failure of imagination.

 

Everyone should have to take risks to survive in DayZ - that's a basic premise of the game, though possibly an unspoken one. Again, it's a debatable point, but I simply believe that being able to see around a corner without exposing any of yourself eliminates your emotional investment - you're not taking a risk and hoping for glory, you're just coldly following an established and successful protocol. There is no emergent gameplay here, and in fact playing on a 3pp server means you're intentionally limiting your own possibilities for emergent gameplay. We're each entitled to our own opinion, but I'd like to think the community largely agrees with the developers when the devs say that emergent gameplay is king.

[Deathlove 2280]

In my oppinion 3pp ruins the experience of the desperate fight for survival and horror aspects of the game and turns it into a treasure hunt battle royale with dumb bot AI to inconvenience you. Both types are fun games but the former offers a more rich and rewarding personal experience. Especially if player interaction is a factor. 

What fight for survival? What Horror Element?

 

There is no fight for survival and horror element currently in this game even if the zeds were put back in its FAR FAR from where it needs to be to even acknowledge for those elements. Especially with all this engine transfering still going on.

 

So it does not matter which mode you play its still the same bullshit game wise.

 

Than enjoy your rich experience and leave how others play alone. If other ppl enjoy how you play they will do exactly how you do.

[emuthreat 2837]

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/dec/19/video-games-makes-me-sick

I just read the article.  I was tempted to dismiss the entire thing wholesale, because of a few annoying grammar inaccuracies.  (Do newspapers employ copy editors anymore?)

 

The gist of it was that less than half of the population experienced simulation sickness to some degree.  So I guess the question is whether the correct thing to do is to form the baseline experience in a manner that accommodates the lowest common denominator; to provide a significant volume of alternative servers for those with personal medical issues; or if it is the responsibility of the individuals to seek medication or treatment for their own personal conditions.  The article did cite "habituation" as a therapy, so maybe encouraging the use of 1pp would have a positive effect on the ability of people to cope with simulated motion in a natural way.

 

Personally, I am extremely nearsighted; like -7.00 out of high school, gone down to -5.5 and -6.0.  I find it most reasonable for me to wear glasses and contacts, rather than insist that every piece of printed material and signage be made large enough for me to read unassisted.  I also experience a degree of social anxiety, which I must cope with because it is unreasonable to ask that others change their behavior because of my personal concerns.  Before you go off trying to argue that implementing 1pp as the default, and standard by which the game will be played by most players, is the same thing as forcing people to accommodate personal preferences; remember that it is a game, nay, the anti-game.

 

DayZ should feel claustrophobic to properly suit the survival horror genre.  There is also the indisputable fact that a displaced camera can be exploited to unbalance combat in PvP encounters.  Those two things alone should be enough to cement the decision to make 1pp the baseline perspective used for the mainstream release.

 

Before you make a fallacious argument to tradition, and cite how 3pp has been available in the past, and should thus continue as such, I might remind you that when stock markets were first conceived, there was little-to-no regulation; but because of rampant abuse, it became necessary to change the way that things wee done to prevent certain actors with an advantage of position or resource, from exploiting their advantage to the detriment of the system as a whole.  Automobiles weren't manufactured with seat belts before the 1960's, when it became apparent that they should be implemented industry-wide.

 

DON'T HARRISON BERGERON DAYZ!!!

Edited December 6, 2015 by emuthreat

[trev186 389]

I just read the article.  I was tempted to dismiss the entire thing wholesale, because of a few annoying grammar inaccuracies.  (Do newspapers employ copy editors anymore?)

 

The gist of it was that less than half of the population experienced simulation sickness to some degree.  So I guess the question is whether the correct thing to do is to form the baseline experience in a manner that accommodates the lowest common denominator; to provide a significant volume of alternative servers for those with personal medical issues; or if it is the responsibility of the individuals to seek medication or treatment for their own personal conditions.  The article did cite "habituation" as a therapy, so maybe encouraging the use of 1pp would have a positive effect on the ability of people to cope with simulated motion in a natural way.

 

Personally, I am extremely nearsighted; like -7.00 out of high school, gone down to -5.5 and -6.0.  I find it most reasonable for me to wear glasses and contacts, rather than insist that every piece of printed material and signage be made large enough for me to read unassisted.  I also experience a degree of social anxiety, which I must cope with because it is unreasonable to ask that others change their behavior because of my personal concerns.  Before you go off trying to argue that implementing 1pp as the default, and standard by which the game will be played by most players, is the same thing as forcing people to accommodate personal preferences; remember that it is a game, nay, the anti-game.

 

DayZ should feel claustrophobic to properly suit the survival horror genre.  There is also the indisputable fact that a displaced camera can be exploited to unbalance combat in PvP encounters.  Those two thing alone should be enough to cement the decision to make 1pp the baseline perspective used for the mainstream release.

 

Before you make a fallacious argument to tradition, and cite how 3pp has been available in the past, and should thus continue as such, I might remind you that when stock markets were first conceived, there was little-to-no regulation; but because of rampant abuse, it became necessary to change the way that things wee done to prevent certain actors with an advantage of position or resource, from exploiting their advantage to the detriment of the system as a whole.  Automobiles weren't manufactured with seat belts before the 1960's, when it became apparent that they should be implemented industry-wide.

 

DON'T HARRISON BERGERON DAYZ!!!

Yes but at the same time what ur recommending is akin to forcing everyone to drive stick cause u think automatic is too easy..

Dayz 1pp mode has only gotten worse in exp and has chased many away from it who once enjoyed both.

Sure they can improve it but the changes made so far have only been worse it is by far the most restrictive and least enjoyable fps exp I have had in years

[emuthreat 2837]

Omfg this again....

When will you people realize they cant afford to alienate 90% of the playerbase, maybe they could with 100000+ players per week, but we have 5000 a day max now.

The game sold 3 million, and after the original hype, no one cares or plays it anymore

I bought in as part of the hype too, and was initially somewhat disappointed.  I stuck with it because this is the closest thing to the game that I've been wishing for since RE:DC on PS1.  If you are citing a dwindling playerbase as a reason for the devs to not implement 1pp as the basic mode of the official servers, you are being a bit shortsighted; we're still miles from the actual release, with all the advertising, hype, and new player interest that will come with it.  People adapt to change quite well, especially when there is nothing they can do about it.  I think some experimenting is in orger to see just how much it would alienate the audience; like how the experimental servers were all 1pp the other night, but still packed brimfull.

 

The reason I keep contributing to these discussions is not because I am a perspective Nazi, who wants to force others to enjoy what I do; it is because I have played both modes extensively and have come to the reasonable conclusion that 1pp is more immersive, and more fair.  I will concede that reasonable accommodations should be made for people who can't cope with 1pp.  If the player controller is never modified to allow for realistically and functionally looking out of windows, this whole thing is moot, and 3pp would have to be left as the main option so people won't be subjected to unreasonable blind spots while taking cover.

[emuthreat 2837]

Yes but at the same time what ur recommending is akin to forcing everyone to drive stick cause u think automatic is too easy..

Dayz 1pp mode has only gotten worse in exp and has chased many away from it who once enjoyed both.

Sure they can improve it but the changes made so far have only been worse it is by far the most restrictive and least enjoyable fps exp I have had in years

That's a bit of a false analogy.  How many competitive motor-sports do you know of, in which automatic transmissions are employed, or even allowed by the rules?  I felt that I had been clear in explaining the premises founding my claim that 1pp is the more fair option, and thus should be the baseline of the vanilla official servers.

 

This is a fun and remarkably civil discussion, given the subject matter, but I still get this nagging feeling that you are avoiding addressing the two premises behind my argument.  Would you care to address that, or give reason for your unwillingness to address that?

[trev186 389]

That's a bit of a false analogy.  How many competitive motor-sports do you know of, in which automatic transmissions are employed, or even allowed by the rules?  I felt that I had been clear in explaining the premises founding my claim that 1pp is the more fair option, and thus should be the baseline of the vanilla official servers.

 

This is a fun and remarkably civil discussion, given the subject matter, but I still get this nagging feeling that you are avoiding addressing the two premises behind my argument.  Would you care to address that, or give reason for your unwillingness to address that?

It is a game not a competitive esport and many enjoy both 3pp and 1pp no sense in limiting that only to private shards. There are no leaderboards giving out epeen awards

My addressing is it is always better to have options and also very difficult to deal with when features are taken away esp when those features are the ones people prefer.

Again if dayz 1pp had not continued to nose dive as it has I wouldn't even care honestly but currently it is overly restrictive, blurs way to easy when moving not to mention that many of the complex actions in the game are easier to deal with in 3pp than 1pp... I know I can get used to performing these actions in 1pp but that does not take away from the fact that many of them feel as if they were programmed with 3pp in mind..

For example leaning left or right it is easy to get stuck in lean position in 1pp and not realize it except for the fact u can now only walk cause despite the fact that it leaning the fps perspective does not reflect that your head is tilted

[Chaingunfighter 917]

It's 100% possible that the de

 

Your post has some other good points, but I feel obliged to point out that just because the developers have said it time and time again doesn't mean it will remain true. If they did a total 180 tomorrow, they'd be within their rights, regardless of how much of the community might want to crucify them for it.

 

You're not wrong and I don't disagree with you - I play 1PP the vast majority of the time (and the depth of gameplay that you mention is a good part of why) so beyond the fact that I disagree with removing 3PP in principle I wouldn't be affected. It's 100% possible that the devs could pull a 180 on their ideas, but every indicator thus far has said otherwise. There's no reason to assume that they will change their mind.

 

Still, it's principle that matters to me - they are committed to player freedom, so why should 3PP not be an option at all? It's the same problem with modding - undoubtedly you'll see recreations of Epoch and Overwatch, mods typically regarded as "easy mode" by quite a few people on this forum. Those are probably going to end up being popular, so a lot of people here have called for modding to be restricted to certain things. Typically, among those are the more hardcore mods, ones that take difficulty many steps further than even the devs have.

 

And then it just becomes clear that it's elitist thinking in action; people who play things differently and arguably more easily should not be able to play the way they do because it's easier. And that's what I disagree with - it's easier, but so what? There are multiple options for a reason. More people pick option A? Again, so what? Are you better because you pick option B? I just don't think that's the case.

 

That's a bit of a false analogy.  How many competitive motor-sports do you know of, in which automatic transmissions are employed, or even allowed by the rules?  I felt that I had been clear in explaining the premises founding my claim that 1pp is the more fair option, and thus should be the baseline of the vanilla official servers.

 

This is a fun and remarkably civil discussion, given the subject matter, but I still get this nagging feeling that you are avoiding addressing the two premises behind my argument.  Would you care to address that, or give reason for your unwillingness to address that?

 

Wouldn't the more numerous official servers be more akin to public motorways, whilst the less available and "more exclusive" private servers be akin to professional motor-spots, rather than the other way around? The majority of people do not race professionally, but making the majority of public servers 1PP-only would in essence be saying that the majority of people should have to use manual transmission only while the few professional racers can choose.

 

Plus, that assumes that your general DayZ population is and must be competitive while the casual audience is limited.

[emuthreat 2837]

(snip)

 

Wouldn't the more numerous official servers be more akin to public motorways, whilst the less available and "more exclusive" private servers be akin to professional motor-spots, rather than the other way around? The majority of people do not race professionally, but making the majority of public servers 1PP-only would in essence be saying that the majority of people should have to use manual transmission only while the few professional racers can choose.

 

Plus, that assumes that your general DayZ population is and must be competitive while the casual audience is limited.

I'm not sure what game you have been playing, but I find DayZ to be almost exclusively competitive.  Player interactions have devolved into kill-or-be-killed, and PvP is the most prominent aspect of the game.  It is for this reason that I lean towards preferring the vanilla official servers be 1pp; so people will learn to play the game with the most fair parameters to begin with.  This should have no effect on peoples' freedom to play 3pp is they seek it out; it will just not be the first thing that new players are exposed to.

 

The automobile analogy got a bit off track.  I would consider public motorways akin to people using their PC for web browsing and flash games, and purchasing and playing "hardcore anitgames" such as DayZ would be more akin to voluntary participation in a competitive field. That being said, 3pp is not simply suitable for for serious competitive play, because of the exploits available.

 

And as easily as that, I have cornered myself into an elitist argument, where I have all but called 3pp arcade or casual mode.  Son of a bitch. Well played sir, well played.

[trev186 389]

I'm not sure what game you have been playing, but I find DayZ to be almost exclusively competitive.  Player interactions have devolved into kill-or-be-killed, and PvP is the most prominent aspect of the game.  It is for this reason that I lean towards preferring the vanilla official servers be 1pp; so people will learn to play the game with the most fair parameters to begin with.  This should have no effect on peoples' freedom to play 3pp is they seek it out; it will just not be the first thing that new players are exposed to.

 

The automobile analogy got a bit off track.  I would consider public motorways akin to people using their PC for web browsing and flash games, and purchasing and playing "hardcore anitgames" such as DayZ would be more akin to voluntary participation in a competitive field. That being said, 3pp is not simply suitable for for serious competitive play, because of the exploits available.

 

And as easily as that, I have cornered myself into an elitist argument, where I have all but called 3pp arcade or casual mode.  Son of a bitch. Well played sir, well played.

 

 

There is very little to brag with in this game unlike other more competitive games such as CS go...i dont even know the players i am competing with and often times i am lone wolf and may never see that player again...

 

This is what I love about dayz...I am on my own and can decide who lives or dies without a care in the world for things such as KD ratio or which clan a person is in...

 

In fact some of the biggest offenders in terms of hacks/exploits such as duping have been clans or at least people who play in groups more often...why ? because historically some of the biggest exploits have required the assistance of others and Clans are often the ones in the best position for such a situation.

 

Then again I am one of the rare few who prefers to play the whole map as opposed to just the hot spots. Never have I found joy in marching into berezino to try and take out the pvp kids who are shooting up the bambis...to me the joy is methodically making my way towards my objective for the day and if I happen upon someone tracking them for as long as I can before making the decision to take em out or carry on...Sometimes it is slow going and it feels like i am all alone on even on full servers and I used to enjoy this until the devs added in more "immersive" effects to 1pp over the past year which makes me feel like I am constantly in a car going 60 mph staring out a window as opposed to just moving along (this effect is somewhat in 3pp as well but it is more tolerable when zoomed out) . Not to mention the horrible FOV, head position & all the extra movements and actions we must perform in game which were clearly coded with 3pp in mind as opposed to 1pp which have always been there but made things clunky

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Even though we appear to share quite different views, i do very much enjoy your musings emu. :)

You and a few others here probably are the ones keeping the nom's at bay

[emuthreat 2837]

There is very little to brag with in this game unlike other more competitive games such as CS go...i dont even know the players i am competing with and often times i am lone wolf and may never see that player again...

 

This is what I love about dayz...I am on my own and can decide who lives or dies without a care in the world for things such as KD ratio or which clan a person is in...

 

In fact some of the biggest offenders in terms of hacks/exploits such as duping have been clans or at least people who play in groups more often...why ? because historically some of the biggest exploits have required the assistance of others and Clans are often the ones in the best position for such a situation.

 

Then again I am one of the rare few who prefers to play the whole map as opposed to just the hot spots. Never have I found joy in marching into berezino to try and take out the pvp kids who are shooting up the bambis...to me the joy is methodically making my way towards my objective for the day and if I happen upon someone tracking them for as long as I can before making the decision to take em out or carry on...Sometimes it is slow going and it feels like i am all alone on even on full servers and I used to enjoy this until the devs added in more "immersive" effects to 1pp over the past year which makes me feel like I am constantly in a car going 60 mph staring out a window as opposed to just moving along (this effect is somewhat in 3pp as well but it is more tolerable when zoomed out) . Not to mention the horrible FOV, head position & all the extra movements and actions we must perform in game which were clearly coded with 3pp in mind as opposed to 1pp which have always been there but made things clunky

I'm with you on the no bragging part; it is much more of a personal satisfaction in being able to creep around the map strategically, and handle challenges and opportunities effectively. I've never ran in a group of more than a few, and not really in any clans either; though I generally regard groups and clans to be the example of the kill-or-be-killed aspect of the game.

 

I think we actually share a pretty similar playstyle philosophy, as I do not often actively seek out PvP, and I generally circuit the map at least once a week.  Even now, running around looking for buses, I get a bit bored, and possibly a headache from the monotony; especially with the black and white of a night server.  But that is kinda my point. I play what I'm given in DayZ.  I'd just prefer to be given more official 1pp servers on the vanilla public hive experience.

 

The game is still in early access, and there is ample time to experiment with the ratios of official 1pp and 3pp servers; at this time, I cannot recall having seen an official public 1pp server.  At the worst, the official 3pp servers will be too few, and the complaints will avalanche in, until the optimal ratio has been achieved.  This might be a good way of tolerance testing the prospect of introducing 1pp as the vanilla experience.  And again, I mainly advocate a preference for 1pp as the default official setting because of the perception exploit.

 

To my surprise, this has remained an anomalously civil discussion on this topic, and it even seems somewhat productive.  

 

Edit: I left an extra space between two words...

Edited December 6, 2015 by emuthreat

[MrAerospace 87]

Question:

- If players suffer from motion sickness in 1pp, wouldn't the correct response be to try to resolve that issue, so that 1pp is enjoyable for more players?

 

- If wall peeking is a problem in 3pp, and it can be exploited no matter what the camera angle, then why not alter a different parameter? Creating a type of depth of field for example; measure the character models' point of focus, and then blur the ever living cr@p out of anything that is beyond that distance.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Question:

- If players suffer from motion sickness in 1pp, wouldn't the correct response be to try to resolve that issue, so that 1pp is enjoyable for more players?

I wonder how many of the people who suffer motion sickness in DayZ also suffer that in Arma. If the motion sickness isn't about low fps and people also suffer it in Arma, then there's not much that can be done about it. Some things I list below either could help or they will not make any difference.

Things that DayZ can do is improve the fps, fix the free head movement bugs that have been present for a year already and fix the Parallax Occlusion Mapping. Then there's also that you can't see your character or anything in your hands clipping through everything even though it really clips through. After that it's only about the user to disable every PP effect, head bob and tune the FoV.

 

Why people suffer some sickness in 1st person but don't get that easily in 3rd person? The reason is that the 1st person view is too realistic for them so brains think that's actually happening even though you're sitting in front of your screen. DayZ and Arma don't cheat the 1st person view like most of the games do which can be cause for it and it's not an option to change that.

[hleVqq 139]

Imagine if cheats were legit and available to everyone from the go. That's what 3PP is right now. Casuals will play that, but some people will realize that it's wrong and unfitting for DayZ.

[Rauchsauger 94]

Your post has some other good points, but I feel obliged to point out that just because the developers have said it time and time again doesn't mean it will remain true. If they did a total 180 tomorrow, they'd be within their rights, regardless of how much of the community might want to crucify them for it.

For my two cents, I prefer 1pp, and I prefer it for its immersion factor. That's a personal thing, though, as immersion is a highly subjective topic. That being said, I ran with a dude in the mod and early SA days who refused to play 1pp, so I'm not without experience at 3pp. I find 3pp lends itself much more heavily to a PvP style, as the ability to see what's going on without a tradeoff in risk shifts all the advantages to the camper.

Now, in warfare, it used to be the case that well-timed offensives often carried a battle, and sometimes a siege. For basic examples, see Alexander the Great's Hammer and Anvil tactics, or Mithridates strengthening his flanks, ordering his mean to charge the Persians, and wrapping their line up from both sides. For exceptions to this, see the Battle of Crecy, which I'll come back to in a moment.

These days, in nearly every conflict since the Gatling Gun became widely distributed, the defender has a massive advantage. If you craft the battlefield in favour of your heavy weapons emplacements, these heavy weapons effectively make one or a few soldiers manning them as strong as dozens or more enemies who simply can't stand up to its power. Even the invention of decent rifles made charging an enemy difficult unless you had terrain on your side - imagine trying to run across a football field while a dozen people are shooting at you.

Now, in Crecy, the mixture of terrain and literally thousands of skilled longbow archers led to an interesting situation - since the French couldn't charge through the trees, the archers were largely protected, and essentially functioned in the same capacity as modern machine-guns: forcing enemies to take cover. This cause the men in the back of the French clusterfuck to crowd up against the well-armoured knights in front, who were fighting in what was probably a lot of mud, and the knights essentially got trampled, suffocated, or were pressed so close to the front by those behind them that the lighter-armoured but highly experienced English men-at-arms were able to wrestle them, get their helmets off, and take them hostage.

This is kind of what defensive gun emplacements do. But battles like Crecy were extremely rare till WWI. Once WWI came around, two things helped to change the situation:

1. The speed with which gun emplacements could be set up. The English had time to prepare at Crecy, but in WWI the time to prepare a gun emplacement was drastically reduced - now you just need to shovel out a hole, put decent sandbags around it, and cart a machine-gun up to it, which is a two-man, two-hour job at most, assuming reasonably ideal conditions. It's a lot faster to create those defensive emplacements.

2. They had an army. It can't be over-stated how important having buddies is to the process. A gun emplacement on its own is highly vulnerable to flanking. Anytime you keyhole yourself, you've got a huge advantage right at the front, but massive weaknesses at the sides. You have to have someone protecting your sides or you'll soon be dead, taking few enemies with you.

The main problem I see with 3pp is that it simulates, for free, this second option. By giving people risk-free views of the battlefield, you cut out the ability of attackers to execute many manoeuvres that would otherwise make perfect sense in the situation. Perhaps I just like this stuff too much, but having these manoeuvres at my disposal but realising none of them will work because the defender may as well have satellite coverage of the battlefield definitely kills my immersion. It allows defenders to take up what would normally be a suicidal position, but they can hold it because they'll always have a decent shot at stopping a flank - a flank that, realistically, has a very high chance of success. It lets defenders set up ambushes that don't make logical sense outside of the very narrow confines of DayZ with 3pp enabled.

This is largely just personal opinion, but I think a bold attacker should have a chance to capitalise upon the defender's lethargy, limited awareness, limited arena of action, or over-confidence with clever tactics and quick, unhesitating action. What we have now is a situation in which the majority of DayZ servers, streamers, and really its public face portrays a reward only for those who wait patiently, who take no risks but gain all the benefits of those risks. Attackers should always be taking a risk, but should also have a shot at that risk paying off. At the moment, attackers taking risks just die poorly, with no chance at glory or an upset victory.

And given that useful military weapons are going to get rarer and rarer as time goes on, I'd like to think that the underdog has a chance if they can pull superior tactics. There's no such thing as over-confidence for a defender now - the only exception is when the attacker has friends who can flank before the defender even knows he's fighting a group. In lone-wolf engagements, which I suggest are most common, if the defender engages and doesn't immediately kill you, you're unlikely to flank him because he can clearly see your options for retreat and attack, without having had to put any effort or risk in for it. In real life, not taking risks is great, but in a video game I interpret not taking risks as a failure of imagination.

Everyone should have to take risks to survive in DayZ - that's a basic premise of the game, though possibly an unspoken one. Again, it's a debatable point, but I simply believe that being able to see around a corner without exposing any of yourself eliminates your emotional investment - you're not taking a risk and hoping for glory, you're just coldly following an established and successful protocol. There is no emergent gameplay here, and in fact playing on a 3pp server means you're intentionally limiting your own possibilities for emergent gameplay. We're each entitled to our own opinion, but I'd like to think the community largely agrees with the developers when the devs say that emergent gameplay is king.

Just keep playing 1pp and you are set.

People prefer 3pp simple as that.

I play both but 1pp perspective/proportions are to bad atm.

Devs should fix that First and then think about Promotion 1pp.

My personal opinion:

"The 1pp 'vocalists' are hurt because the few 1pp Server are full of better players so they want to shove 1pp down everyone's throat to >>pwn the casuals<<."

[trueffel 5]

It´s a wonderful thread... We don´t have any problem but we have to make it as a problem. Who want to play 1pp play on a 1pp server and who want to play 3pp play on a 3pp server (with all camera abusing if bohemia can´t solve it) - Problem solved, next file pls.

Edited December 6, 2015 by frageteufel

[MrAerospace 87]

I wonder how many of the people who suffer motion sickness in DayZ also suffer that in Arma. If the motion sickness isn't about low fps and people also suffer it in Arma, then there's not much that can be done about it. Some things I list below either could help or they will not make any difference.

Things that DayZ can do is improve the fps, fix the free head movement bugs that have been present for a year already and fix the Parallax Occlusion Mapping. Then there's also that you can't see your character or anything in your hands clipping through everything even though it really clips through. After that it's only about the user to disable every PP effect, head bob and tune the FoV.

Why people suffer some sickness in 1st person but don't get that easily in 3rd person? The reason is that the 1st person view is too realistic for them so brains think that's actually happening even though you're sitting in front of your screen. DayZ and Arma don't cheat the 1st person view like most of the games do which can be cause for it and it's not an option to change that.

Are you 100% certain? You've just mentioned three different possible causes together in one answer. That not exactly a definitive answer.

What about angle of vision? Not having some sort of constant visual reference? Could it be the unnaturally fast player speeds?

 

I mean, there's so many variables, wouldn't it be worthwhile to isolate and systematically run individual tests on them all?

Edited December 6, 2015 by MrAerospace

[S3V3N 1402]

You know you can turn head-bobbing off, right? That's what gets most people sick in 1st person. I like to have it on just a little bit. If the server isn't laggy and frames are good, there are no motion sickness problems for me.

 

Personally, I like to switch between the views. I play 3rd person in wide open field and woods,but first person in cities. I don't like shooting at people in third person and the time it takes to transition between the views can be the time to get you killed.

 

I'll definitely be playing both - third and first person. What often gets overlooked is that this way, you can play two different characters and develop them completely differently. I switched between views in Arma too and found it much easier to drive in third person (since military vehicles often have a very restricted field of view from the inside). I don't really see the need to do that in DayZ and actually prefer the interior view in cars. It takes a while to accept 1st person, but when I get used to it, I often prefer it over third person. Can't really explain why. It just feels right to me.   

Edited December 6, 2015 by S3V3N

[sneakydudes 278]

I'm not sure what game you have been playing, but I find DayZ to be almost exclusively competitive.  Player interactions have devolved into kill-or-be-killed, and PvP is the most prominent aspect of the game.  It is for this reason that I lean towards preferring the vanilla official servers be 1pp; so people will learn to play the game with the most fair parameters to begin with.  This should have no effect on peoples' freedom to play 3pp is they seek it out; it will just not be the first thing that new players are exposed to.

 

The automobile analogy got a bit off track.  I would consider public motorways akin to people using their PC for web browsing and flash games, and purchasing and playing "hardcore anitgames" such as DayZ would be more akin to voluntary participation in a competitive field. That being said, 3pp is not simply suitable for for serious competitive play, because of the exploits available.

 

And as easily as that, I have cornered myself into an elitist argument, where I have all but called 3pp arcade or casual mode.  Son of a bitch. Well played sir, well played.

Emu, you cant argue against it, because you yourself used the same thing, 3 posts up about the stock market.

I don't care about the 1p, or 3p vision mode. I simply wont play in 1p only servers.

 

This game gives me headaches after 3 minutes in 1p, i have to switch to 3pp right away. It is also very close to 25% pov which is perfect for me.

Sniper Elite series.

 

now that i am talking about it, i wonder if its the overwhelming graphics in it. Too much to process at once?

[sneakydudes 278]

You know you can turn head-bobbing off, right? That's what gets most people sick in 1st person. I like to have it on just a little bit. If the server isn't laggy and frames are good, there are no motion sickness problems for me.

 

Personally, I like to switch between the views. I play 3rd person in wide open field and woods,but first person in cities. I don't like shooting at people in third person and the time it takes to transition between the views can be the time to get you killed.

 

I'll definitely be playing both - third and first person. What often gets overlooked is that this way, you can play two different characters and develop them completely differently. I switched between views in Arma too and found it much easier to drive in third person (since military vehicles often have a very restricted field of view from the inside). I don't really see the need to do that in DayZ and actually prefer the interior view in cars. It takes a while to accept 1st person, but when I get used to it, I often prefer it over third person. Can't really explain why. It just feels right to me.   

Sure you can, it feels right because we are in 1st person in real life.