First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[emuthreat 2837]

You seem like you prefer to argue fairly. While I'm definitely on your side of the debate, I feel obliged to point out that by choosing words like 'cater,' 'niche,' and 'holdout,' as examples, you're condescending a bit, painting the other side as the enemies of progress, which isn't necessarily true on its own merits. =/

 

Still agree with you on 1pp, though. =)

 

PS EDIT: Just in case, I should state that I only threw this one out there in the interests of ensuring this thread continues to display a frankly stupefying lack of poor manners. The presence of a 1pp vs 3pp thread with so much maturity has left my mouth gaping open so long that I've not only caught flies in it, but am now charging rent to more than a dozen families of common house fly.

Good point. I fix.

[Konfucious K 183]

Does anyone know why 3pp servers also have 1pp option? Seems the fairest solution is just to have one or the other. Be interesting to see the population figures then.

[S3V3N 1402]

Let's try to look at this in the context of a formal argument.

 

Is DayZ a game driven primarily by player interactions?  (I answer yes)

 

Can 3pp be exploited to gain information without risk?  (again, yes)

 

Can 1pp be exploited to gain information without risk?  (not that I am aware of, please specify if this is incorrect)

 

Does having the ability to gain information without risk render some player interactions unbalanced?  (yes)

 

Should DayZ be offered to the public in its basic format in a condition that allows for unbalanced player interactions? (no)

 

Which perspective should be primarily offered as free to the public servers and facilitated by the developers of the game?  (1pp)

 

Please let me know if and where you find any fault in my reasoning.

 

Don't get me wrong - I am in favor of 1p servers and if there weren't so few experimental 1p servers, I would play it most of the time. However, the argument is like the argument about using Teamspeak versus direct. TS gives you a huge advantage, because you can silently make plans, while your victim is still unaware of you. You can also chat with each other in high risk locations without anyone noticing. These are all considerable advantages and Battleeye could be tweaked to recognize VOIP outside of Dayz and disable it or simply not start the game when it is running. Since battleye checks periodically ingame also, these people would get kicked, even if they managed to join. Technically there would be the option to supress outside communication. 

 

So from a gaming standpoint it would be much better, if everyone was forced to use direct and the radios. Never gonna happen! In the end, it's about what choices we want to make for ourselves. I will play both modes, because I like playing two different characters and I know my friends - who are still rookies - won't play anything but Third Person. I think people on this thread have good intentions, but we can't force other people into accepting 1st person as the holy grail of DayZ. It's an adjustment and some will overcome it and start enjoying 1p, but most will always stick to playing 3p. The only thing that bothers me is that all of those who so fervently defend third person have probably never played first person for a couple of days. You completely forget about 3rd person after a while and it really feels like the game was meant to be played that way. I think it's good we have both options and will continue to enjoy them both. If I want a challenge, I'll go first person. If I want to live easy, I go third.   

Edited December 7, 2015 by S3V3N

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

Battleeye could be tweaked to recognize VOIP outside of Dayz and disable it or simply not start the game when it is running. 

 

Is that a legal thing to do? This was the only reasonable conclusion I came to awhile back, but abandoned it as I figured that, even if it was somehow legal for one program to purposefully suppress another when both are non-malicious, it might piss off the companies that run the 3rd party voip services.

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

Is that a legal thing to do? This was the only reasonable conclusion I came to awhile back, but abandoned it as I figured that, even if it was somehow legal for one program to purposefully suppress another when both are non-malicious, it might piss off the companies that run the 3rd party voip services.

BattleEye already recognizes a variety of perfectly legal programs as cheats, with no legal troubles that I'm aware of. Back in the mod days, a friend of mine (a computer programmer, by trade) had his GUID banned with no refund after BattleEye detected some of his legal programming and debugging software after a total drive scan. Obviously, since I'm telling you about this, he was not cheating and thus there would have been no evidence for such. He was banned just for having programs that could easily be used to cheat on the same system he played DayZ on.

 

I'm not complaining on his behalf or anything - just stating that if that was legal, then adding Teamspeak and other VoiP solutions to the list of 'cheats' must be legal as well. Difficult to do, though, when you start factoring in browser-based VoiP solutions like Google+ Hangouts.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Funkmaster Rick

[S3V3N 1402]

Is that a legal thing to do? This was the only reasonable conclusion I came to awhile back, but abandoned it as I figured that, even if it was somehow legal for one program to purposefully suppress another when both are non-malicious, it might piss off the companies that run the 3rd party voip services.

Battleye just checks a number of programs that are known threats, but the list could be added to, in order to include Teamspeak, Skype, etc. They would probably have to add that in a disclaimer, so you agree to the process. If a developer decides he doesn't want any of this in their game, why would it be legal (on the other hand) for TS etc. to force its use? All of these are non-commercial applications, as far as regular users go. So I don't see why supressing them in a particular commercial program/game would be illegal. 

 

However, my point was more to illiustrate that there are other means that unbalance the game, yet 1p players don't stray from using these means/programs either. So the argument that 1p is a better balanced way to play the game is a bit like saying: playing the game only with direct speech is the better way to play. People have their habits from other games and won't break into new ways of playing, unless they are forced to. I much prefer it, when the choice comes naturally, because they see that it's not all about winning the game, but enjoying it more. Enjoyment however is highly subjective and a matter of each person's gaming history. Personally, I've always hated playing with Teamspeak, even in the mod days. It makes things easier, but it takes away a lot of the atmosphere for my taste. The best people I've played with used direct and only spoke when they had to or where it was safe, whereas TS is like a never-ending phone call. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by S3V3N

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

Battleye just checks a number of programs that are known threats, but the list could be added to, in order to include Teamspeak, Skype, etc. They would probably have to add that in a disclaimer, so you agree to the process. If a developer decides he doesn't want any of this in their game, why would it be legal (on the other hand) for TS etc. to force its use? All of these are non-commercial applications, as far as regular users go. So I don't see why supressing them in a particular commercial program/game would be illegal. 

 

However, my point was more to illiustrate that there are other means that unbalance the game, yet 1p players don't stray from using these means/programs either. So the argument that 1p is a better balanced way to play the game is a bit like saying: playing the game only with direct speech is the better way to play. People have their habits from other games and won't break into new ways of playing, unless they are forced to. I much prefer it, when the choice comes naturally, because they see that it's not all about winning the game, but enjoying it more. Enjoyment however is highly subjective and a matter of each person's gaming history. Personally, I've always hated playing with Teamspeak, even in the mod days. It makes things easier, but it takes away a lot of the atmosphere for my taste. The best people I've played with used direct and only spoke when they had to or where it was safe, whereas TS is like a never-ending phone call. 

 

I get that your point was more about 1pp vs 3pp and various unbalancing or immersion breaking factors. I didn't mean to derail, it's just that I've been curious about this whole subject of 3rd party VOIP for some time. Biohaze pointed out one really important thing though to me in conversation that sort of renders the whole thing moot. What would prevent someone from just using Skype on their phone or a tablet? Nothing. There is literally no possible way to control it.

Edited December 7, 2015 by ColdAtrophy

[mercules 1290]

However, my point was more to illiustrate that there are other means that unbalance the game, yet 1p players don't stray from using these means/programs either.

No, we don't and when on a 3PP server we utilize 3PP and the very exploits we don't like existing in the game because they exist and to not use them would be to unfairly handicap ourselves. Just like 3rd party VOIP is basically unstoppable, I can run Skype on my phone/tablet/virtual machine or even a TS3/Mumble client and BE will have no clue it exists. The knowledge to set this up is minimal. So short of the honor system(which places like ShackTac have) there is no way to enforce it. Enforceable rules are bad because they apply only to the honest.

I also use a TrackIR headset which allows me to change my view easily by simply moving my head. When flying I use alternate controls like joystick and pedals. I also have a gaming mouse with multiple thumb buttons to make tasks easier.

In fact because I do have some issues with my joints and hands I utilize an Orbweaver keypad with allows me to adjust it so that it is ergonomic and I can play without my wrists and hands aching so much. This is akin to the "1PP makes me ill." argument. Notice instead of insisting on simpler controls I resolved my issue by adjusting my end of things and spending my money on something to make it better for ME.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Not sure if i read that right, but it seems like you're using your own disability and solution as a contrasting argument to 1pp motion sickness?

 

Could you give an example please how people with motion sickness can solve the problem of looking at a monitor and getting sick purely from playing the game? Preferably i'd like to see your suggestions involve accessories/peripherals in the same vein as 'ergonomic keyboard', but if there is something more creative and productive i'd sure love to hear it.

This is outside the fact that people with this issue have already detailed that using the solution of accessing 3pp allows them to mostly circumvent the issue.

 

Also, again, your argument and standpoint is confusing, but historically and even in this thread, it is not the 1pp people calling for change or 'simpler controls'.  I think you've confused your argument.  I applaud your use of money and effort to make things easier for yourself, but from your text it seems like you want everyone else now to go out and spend their money to fix their problems, where a solution already exists, one which yourself and others appear to want to remove.

 

Do you think the two issues are comparable, really?

Edited December 7, 2015 by q.S Sachiel

[sneakydudes 278]

Some of you are getting away from the subject. Moving to other programs is not what this is about.

Don't be calling 3p and vo-ip cheaters either. Its an unfair assessment, rights to use that term.

 

Make a game with what you desire, but BI has already stated that this is a modded game, and so is the arma series. Simply vanilla servers will die off in time.

1p makes no sense to argue over the fact modding will become the future, and so will 1p and 3p servers. If you wish to make a 1p by all means do so and invite your 30 friends to play.

 

We will not join it solely to play on. We want to communicate with friends and doing so will involve TS and 3rd person if we desire.

 

and this is not a scary game... Ive seen TV shows more freighting then this game.

[S3V3N 1402]

We should perhaps take away that some things are best left the way that people are used to. Those who want 1p will always have the opportunity to play that way. If I want to play with others they don't force me to use TS. It is my decision and I chose not to. Why would it be bad, if all the official servers were 1p? Like was said before - there are 1000 private servers to chose from, too.  

 

I use a mouse that came with my monitor and a Microsoft wired keyboard ^^. I can play the game just right, though my right mouse button is a pain to use. I don't see myself at a disadvantage and if I wanted to, I could upgrade my hardware at least to some extend. It's personal preference what you play with or how you play. And if people want to miss out on playing 1p, they can. It's their loss, I'd say.

Edited December 7, 2015 by S3V3N

[hleVqq 139]

Cheat's a cheat. If it's a legit cheat, then it's not a cheat. Don't blame your faulty logic on my ability to read, thank you very much.

 

No, it's a way to describe something that would make a good cheat had it not been a feature. You're looking too much into the word "cheat", completely dismissing the other word next to it: "legit", which makes you miss the point I'm making. Yup, pretty sure your reading comprehension is to blame.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Powerhouse

[sneakydudes 278]

Not sure if i read that right, but it seems like you're using your own disability and solution as a contrasting argument to 1pp motion sickness?

 

Could you give an example please how people with motion sickness can solve the problem of looking at a monitor and getting sick purely from playing the game? Preferably i'd like to see your suggestions involve accessories in the same vein as 'ergonomic keyboard', but if there is something more creative and productive i'd sure love to hear it.

This is outside the fact that people with this issue have already detailed that using the solution of accessing 3pp allows them to mostly circumvent the issue.

 

Also, again, your argument and standpoint is confusing, but historically and even in this thread, it is not the 1pp people calling for change.  I think you've confused your argument.

 

Do you think the two issues are comparable, really?

Its only a handful of people that have this issue, not everyone.

 

1. Its 1p cant get enough numbers to play on their servers.

2. Hicks made a mention of 1p servers, but knows quiet well that mods and private servers will change it.

3. 1p probably cant get enough donations to keep it alive. The so called 30 members have not paid up :)

[sneakydudes 278]

We should perhaps take away that some things are best left the way that people are used to. Those who want 1p will always have the opportunity to play that way. If I want to play with others they don't force me to use TS. It is my decision and I chose not to. Why would it be bad, if all the official servers were 1p? Like was said before - there are 1000 private servers to chose from, too.  

 

I use a mouse that came with my monitor and a Microsoft wired keyboard ^^. I can play the game just right, though my right mouse button is a pain to use. I don't see myself at a disadvantage and if I wanted to, I could upgrade my hardware at least to some extend. It's personal preference what you play with or how you play. And if people want to miss out on playing 1p, they can. It's their loss, I'd say.

Well said, very well. It is our loss.

 

We are also all arguing over the fact that maybe the 3p seeing over the walls is our faults.

I think it can be re programmed to restrict directly over the wall when you turn left, or right and it shows behind you. If it cant then they need to learn how to.

 

also 7, this really isn't a zombie type game blood and gore, flesh eating game. I foresee this as a survival in the wilderness like the real life shows on TV, but with a human presence like the walking dead. Sometimes your attacked other times you bring in new people to your compound. This is where groups become towns, and protect life as we see. We sometimes will fight other groups for all the survival needs to continue on. Territories will be made, and building will happen with big walls to keep you out.

 

But so will landmines :) that will stop your 3p vision so called exploits LOL

[mercules 1290]

Could you give an example please how people with motion sickness can solve the problem of looking at a monitor and getting sick purely from playing the game? Preferably i'd like to see your suggestions involve accessories/peripherals in the same vein as 'ergonomic keyboard', but if there is something more creative and productive i'd sure love to hear it.

This is outside the fact that people with this issue have already detailed that using the solution of accessing 3pp allows them to mostly circumvent the issue.

 

Also, again, your argument and standpoint is confusing, but historically and even in this thread, it is not the 1pp people calling for change or 'simpler controls'.  I think you've confused your argument.  I applaud your use of money and effort to make things easier for yourself, but from your text it seems like you want everyone else now to go out and spend their money to fix their problems, where a solution already exists, one which yourself and others appear to want to remove.

 

Do you think the two issues are comparable, really?

Yes the two issues are really comparable. SOME people only get motion sickness because of the graphics stutter from low frames per second. Having a focal point like their avatar they can see in 3PP helps ground them so the flicker is less of an issue but in 1PP lacking the focus for their motion the low FPS ends up being more of an issue. Do you know what the solution is for them? It's really similar to me spending $100 on an ergonomic keypad in addition to my $40 keyboard... They can get a better computer with a better GPU and CPU that helps them get better FPS.

I've also talked to people who state they get motion sickness who reply to me with, "Turning off headbob helps? How do you turn that off? Nevermind let's just play on a 3PP server."

It sounds mean to say it, but I honestly believe a lot of the "1PP makes me ill" people haven't really bothered to do anything to mitigate it and for some it's just a handy excuse to just ignore it and go with what they are more comfortable with and nothing to do with medical issues.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Ok i get it.

The free option is invalid.

These people need to spend money, like you did, to fix their issue. 

 

And that's why we should remove the free option, so that there is no option but for people to spend their money, or leave the game.

 

You suggest upgrading their PC for DayZ? an incomplete game with marginal returns on hardware vs performance?  People out there with tuff rigs are still getting 19fps max outside of cities.  Please review your argument.

 

It smacks of jealousy that there is a free option for these people, while you with all your independance went out and spent your money on peripherals worth a fraction of a decent GPU and CPU. =/=Logic ITT

 

Also ITT:

Degrading comments

Immaturity

Ignorance

Condescension

Personal attacks on people replying due to the (original posters') inability to formulate coherent sentences

Vain and narcissistic fascist ideologue.

 

Again, this is ultimately a moot point because nothing is ever going to change (the mechanics, and apparently the behaviours of both camps).  At this point 1p/3p discussion is an excuse to try to assert one's superiority over a group of people who all participate in this fabled 'open and unrestrictive sandbox'.

There is literally no argument that can be made past the discussions that took place three years ago without devolving into an immature squabble.

Edited December 7, 2015 by q.S Sachiel

[mercules 1290]

Ok i get it.

No you don't, apparently. Instead of insisting that there be a free option to overcome my issue I resolved it myself. That was my comparison. Sure the free option exists already but it also comes with exploits that make the game simpler and easier. My analogy was if I insisted they dumb down the controls and maybe put in an auto-run and follow command so I could give my hands and wrists a break. Someone with vision problems might buy a larger monitor instead of insisting they put in a server that runs everything in 800x600 resolution. Because, let's face it, 3PP gives such an advantage that if you are on a 3PP server you basically need to be using it.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

No sir, you don't get it.

The free option does already exist.  The 3p crowd isn't asking for anything.  You even said it yourself that the free option already exists.

You literally shot down your own argument.

 

This is why your analogy doesn't hold water.

And neither does the argument.

[emuthreat 2837]

As long as we are going on about how it isn't acceptable to expect people to spend extra money to 

 

Its only a handful of people that have this issue, not everyone.

 

1. Its 1p cant get enough numbers to play on their servers.

2. Hicks made a mention of 1p servers, but knows quiet well that mods and private servers will change it.

3. 1p probably cant get enough donations to keep it alive. The so called 30 members have not paid up :)

Have you seen the 1pp official servers offerings on stable?  I sure haven't.  So, if it is not acceptable for 3pp players to be made to use rented servers, why is it okay to suggest that people need to rent their own servers to play 1pp.  Am I actually not playing the game right, for just wanting to play the vanilla game, and disregard all the mods?

 

I have very little interest in playing mods of a game conceived of a mod.  I quit playing Red Alert Two when I could no longer find any regular servers.  This was because most of the modded maps had overpowered features, infinite resources, and many other changes that basically defeated the purpose of the game.

 

Do you even play on the official servers?  I do, and they are all 3pp servers.  I have to go find a private server for 1pp, there is currently no public hive 1pp servers available, to my knowledge.  People act like it's going to ruin the whole game, if the same amount of public server offerings provided for 3pp official servers, were available for people who wanted to play 1pp.  You act like 1pp advocates are somehow putting you out, by asking for a place to play the game as they wish to, without having to rent a server.    Even if it is 50/50, worst case scenario is that the 3pp officail servers will be extra full.

 

I really hope that you can see why it is so hypocritical for people who prefer 3pp to deny the option for people to have freely available public 1pp servers.  You are literally trying to protect a resource that there is a significant unused surplus of on the public server offerings.  There are literally dozens of empty 3pp public official servers that could be used for 1pp, with no appreciable loss to the 3pp community.  Why are you fighting so hard to hang onto something that is never even used?

 

I honestly just want to play the vanilla game on 1pp public hive servers.   And I have no opportunity to do so, because the official stable servers are all 3pp.

 

What would you lose if DayZ US Central 1-55 was set up for 1pp?  If your answer is nothing, then what are you even doing here?

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

there is currently no public hive 1pp servers available, to my knowledge.  

 

There are a few on Stable. I stress, a few. We basically have 10 or less servers to play on and none of them ever get over 20 players. I suppose if I expanded search parameters to include regions other than the US, I'd likely find more but I don't want to encourage any more latency than what is already inherent in the game. Just fyi.

 

The player base is currently smaller than it has ever been. 1pp players were already a minority. Zombies are not a presence in 0.58 and that drove away quite a few players as well. Currently, I'd be surprised if there were enough 1pp players to fill two servers at any given time.

[emuthreat 2837]

There are a few on Stable. I stress, a few. We basically have 10 or less servers to play on and none of them ever get over 20 players. I suppose if I expanded search parameters to include regions other than the US, I'd likely find more but I don't want to encourage any more latency than what is already inherent in the game. Just fyi.

 

The player base is currently smaller than it has ever been. 1pp players were already a minority. Zombies are not a presence in 0.58 and that drove away quite a few players as well. Currently, I'd be surprised if there were enough 1pp players to fill two servers at any given time.

Official public hive 1pp servers?  The ones provided for free by hosting companies, and have generic names? Like where you can use one 1pp character on multiple servers, and not part of a rented private hive?

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

Official public hive 1pp servers?  The ones provided for free by hosting companies, and have generic names? Like where you can use one 1pp character on multiple servers, and not part of a rented private hive?

 

Yes indeed sir. Biohaze and I have spent hundreds of hours on them.

[Rauchsauger 94]

Difficulty is not the goal in advocating for 1pp to be the official public server setting.  It has always been about balance and immersion; two things that are verafiably compromised when using 3pp.

 

They have already stated that 3pp will not go away.  However, a somewhat recent musing of Brian Hicks suggested that they are considering making the official servers 1pp.  I agree with this idea, and have provided supporting evidence for why 1pp would be a better fit for the baseline experience.

 

Many people are angry about this, and think that since they have become used to playing the game in a certain way, that the game should continue to cater to  facilitate that niche preference.  I'll bet there are still a few holdouts players who think the game was just perfect when everybody had either a Mosin or an M4, and are genuinely put-off by all the difficulty in finding a compatible weapon and ammo combination.

 

Most people are angry because some people here always make up points that do not hold up to try and force 1pp on everybody else.

Especially when those ******** try to diminish others and elevate themselves by calling something else "easy mode" and all that other bullshit.

Those are the worst back in cs 1.x it was the AWP or in Quake the BFG or in game X it is weapon Y. Just play something else - and in the case of DayZ you can do that within the same game.

 

If I want to play 1pp I use my 1pp char if I want 3pp I play that char. Simple as that. All without pestering others that my way is the only way and everybody else has to do it like I deem correct.

Nobody cares...because you can choose to play 1pp or 3pp or even 1pp on a 3pp server.

 

Play like you want to and let others do the same because it is none of your business to begin with.

(But until all the issues with 1pp are fixed (wrong perspective/proportions) the number of people playing on 1pp will stay low.)

[Konfucious K 183]

There is a big problem here though, the real choice is 1pp/3pp hybrid VS 1pp only, which inherently imbalances the choice and also makes an argument that 3pp players cannot/don't want to survive without 1pp. The opposite is not true, 1pp does just fine without 3pp.

 

The irony is, if the game was actually 3pp only in its current form it would be unplayable as soon as you entered a lot of buildings..

Edited December 7, 2015 by Konfucious K

[Rauchsauger 94]

There is a big problem here though, the real choice is 1pp/3pp hybrid VS 1pp only, which inherently imbalances the choice and also makes an argument that 3pp players cannot/don't want to survive without 1pp. The opposite is not true, 1pp does just fine without 3pp.

 

The irony is, if the game was actually 3pp only in its current form it would be unplayable as soon as you entered a lot of buildings..

 

What is the problem there? If you want 1pp play 1pp. If you want 3pp play 3pp. If you want 1pp on a 3pp server just do that.

Whatever you want to to construct here: Nobody cares - 99% of players play 3pp for a host of reasons and if you don't like those reasons you are free

to play on 1pp without someone playing 3pp whining and nagging that you should play 3pp because of "reasons".

 

I play both for a lot of reasons.

I like to have 2 different chars on public and (and this is the important part) >>personally<< feel much safer (hence "easier" *) on 1pp because I know

if I cannot see someone they cannot see me. But since perspective and proportion are f'ed up in 1pp I play a lot of 3pp. If they adress those issues I

(and maybe others) will play a lot more 1pp. But that is my personal choice and I will not push that on someone else. Because that is such a lowlife

douchebag behaviour and none of my business at all.

 

So please stop trying to tell others how they "have" to spend their free time

 

* Please note the quotations marks that indicate sarcasm and system immanent pointing out the uselessness of those kinds of argument to the 1pp only crowd

Edited December 7, 2015 by Rauchsauger