Third Person View should be Over-the-Shoulder, NOT a bird's eye view.

[Zboub le météor 250]

[selfish mode : ON]

I mainly play on 1st person servers because i think the gameplay experience is much more enjoyable. you have to expose yourself to see, camping a house is no more crouching on the ground while looking by the windows and mouvement is no more equal to giving your position to every camper in the town.

 

Sadly, the huge majority of the peoples i play with prefer 3rd person. Most of the time, i heard the "i like to see my character running" excuse but i think that the majority of people play 3rd person to use the "see over wall exploit".

 

i play on 3rd perso server too, and i use and abuse the 3rd eye exploit as anyone else. in fact, 90% of the good community events are played in 3rd person server. I enjoy them but keep on thinking they could have been much greater in 1rs person. still, i'm better in 1st person and i'm tired of always beeing the one that make the effort to play the other way.

[selfish mode : OFF]

 

3rd person will continue to concern a large majority of players.

1st person will continue to flame because 3rd person is like 70-80% of dayz players and concern most of the events.

 

i just hope that 1st person community will grow up significally so we could not give a fuck about 3rd person.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

 the huge majority of the peoples i play with prefer 3rd person. 

i just hope that 1st person community will grow up "significally" so we could not give a fuck about 3rd person.

You answered the main issue about 1st and third.  A lot of my friends play third person so I play on those servers.  I still play in first person but I put myself at a huge disadvantage and in all honesty, it's not worth it.  I don't need a wall peeking crutch, it's shit gameplay.

[Karmaterror 982]

I rimerily play 3pp servers but tend to stick to 1pp for a few reasons. The already mentioned targeting issues with the crosshair (bullet goes high or low exaggerated at short ranges). I feel having players around with access to 3pp amps up the challenge 10x. That being said when im running through the woods to get to my next location its really nice to flick to 3pp, take in the scenery, admire the gear moving around with the toon as he runs along.  

 

I could see an over the shoulder working but my experience with them has always been that they feel very restricted and awkward. I have heard a lot of "fixes" like 4th wall, camera position ect. But i feel people just have to accept that these types of advantages just come with a 3pp view.  Some how some way players would find a way for a shoulder cam to be used as a periscope, maybe over the shoulder cures people on rooftops but corners could still be done I guess.

 

At the end of the day I think that people looking over/ around stuff is just something that goes hand in hand with a 3pp view. A lot of the fixes make it even more unrealistic that the view itself is. If you want to play dyz on the hardest setting that is a 3pp enabled server where you restrict to 1st as a personal rule. Its good that that environment can be provided....just as its good that a full 1pp or full 3pp environment is catered for.

 

This is something I have loved about dayz since the mod days....it brings players together. I had friends that hated FPS games, wouldn't touch BF, COD, anything like that. They were very sceptical when they found out it was an army sim but giving them that view and the way the mod was constructed even they could enjoy a game that was technically waaaaay outside there comfort zone. All of a sudden we have players from many different gaming backgrounds all thrown in together using the settings they prefer :)

[evil koala 22]

Never called anyone "babbling retard", but hey...since you and many others are mirror climbing I think some sneaky word-bending was to be expected. Anyway, since you apparently don't know that: people far from being the sharpest knife in the drawer can like good things, you know. They're not limited to bad ones.

 

No sneaky word bending, just reading, interpreting and rephrasing. "Babbling retard" and "Not the sharpest knife in the drawer" are both synonymous with "stupid". They mean the same thing, only with one being more inflammatory to make a point. To which you only take issue with the rewording of the term and not the fact that you just called the majority of players stupid then try to soften the blow by saying stupid people can sometimes like good things, by your judgement.

[DocWolf 146]

I could see an over the shoulder working but my experience with them has always been that they feel very restricted and awkward. I have heard a lot of "fixes" like 4th wall, camera position ect. But i feel people just have to accept that these types of advantages just come with a 3pp view.  Some how some way players would find a way for a shoulder cam to be used as a periscope, maybe over the shoulder cures people on rooftops but corners could still be done I guess.

 

At the end of the day I think that people looking over/ around stuff is just something that goes hand in hand with a 3pp view. A lot of the fixes make it even more unrealistic that the view itself is.

 

 

This. Beans for you, and may this debate find its way to the bottom of the last forum page.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

This. Beans for you, and may this debate find its way to the bottom of the last forum page.

Why, because you don't want to lose your precious wall peeking?  No one want to take away third person view.

[OrLoK 16190]

and in the same breath call them all babbling retards

Hello there

 

Regardless of what ever you or anyone else may think, we dont like the use of the R word as a derogatory term here.

 

Dont use it. Simple as that.

 

@everyone: We also do not appreciate folk calling each other stupid etc. One doesnt need to insult to debate

 

Carry on.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[CJFlint 357]

I really serously cannot believe how much tention there is between 1pp players and 3pp players....it really amazes the hell out of me.

 

Honestly I can give a rats ass what your preference is. I played serveral hunderd hours in this game, and play both server types. Sometimes I really wonder why I play it so much. I prefer 3pp simply becuase theres more options on servers. Never really saw that much of a difference or even cared really and I simply can't believe how big of a fucking issue people make this. 1pp servers do not require anymore skill then any other server type. I play long enough to know that. It just hype! As far as the peeking around corners 3pp expliot...its a highly over blown issue. Really it only an expliot in close quarters. I have never been shot becuase of it in a long time...simply becuase I lisen for audio ques too. I able to tell if player are there wether I see them or not. If here foot steps, doors, opening, ammo clanking, ect ect ect. I know a player is there. So you best be still. I also look for other ques players have been around. Agroed zombies, custom loot just laying about and the like. So the likelyhood of you catching me off guard is slim. So if your careful, and watch and lisen everything like me peeking is really not going matter as much against you.

 

Its been monthes since a player has shot me without me knowing they were there. Months! Normally I get shot in gun battles.  So to me its not even that big of an issue. Infact the last time I died in game I shot the guy right in the  chest 1st. He was vary lucky. I only had a mosin at short range. He had an AKM and survived it and was able to return fire while I was reloading. He sounded like he was about to shit his pants in prox voice, said he was sorry lol. I responded back, "don't be I was trying to kill you dumb ass. You vary lucky". Why be sorry lol its a game! Dont think he heard me though becuase my avatar was dead. I was completly calm, got up went to the frig filled my pint, had a toast for my fallen avatar. Even laughed a bit, I was amazed I lived that long over a month. I feel I went out like a fucking champ, and felt good about it. Hey something is going to get you in dayz at some point, that is why I'm sharing this. I proceeded to play black flag the rest of the night and has a nice rest of the night. Then next day I began gearing up again. That was the only time I died in pvp, in almost 2 months. I really dont die in pvp that often to really care about petty bull shit issues like this. I think the people that make this such a big issue are people who die all the time and want something to blame it on.

 

Fucking 11 pages now guys!? Are we all playing the same game?

 

The fix to the "peeking issue" is a dynamic 3pp camara, NOT over the shoulder view. With the dynamic camera added when you get close to an object the camera zooms in so you can't peek around corners. SIMPLE problem solved! Quit Fing wining about it!

Edited November 18, 2014 by CJFlint

[threedogification 41]

Today I'm going to learn you guys a thing.

Ahhh yes, Dayz, the immersive open world survival that still relies on third person even though it breaks immersion. I have played an equal amount of time on both types of servers (first and third) and I noticed a few cool things.

The KoSing in hardcore servers drop drastically simply because people can't sit on the hospital and look around in third person. They have to actually stand or sit and look around, exposing themselves. This is very dangerous, and anyone who isn't retarded notices this.

I believe that Dayz as a whole should remove third person. In real life, you can't look around corners without physically looking, and it gives bandits an unfair advantage. In 200 hours of hardcore servers, I have not once been unfairly killed because the bandit could seee before I could see him.

Imagine that you run around a corner and see a man with a gun in the street. There could have been two options in this situation:

In hardcore servers, you both saw each other at the same time, giving equal reaction time.

In regular servers, you could have seen him in third person without exposing yourself.

People all around these forums keep talking about immersion breaking, yet they overlook one of the largest aspects of immersion, such as feeling that you are your character, instead of looking over his shoulder.

If third person was removed entirely, then players would be nearly completely immersed

[OrLoK 16190]

Today I'm going to learn you guys a thing.

Ahhh yes, Dayz, the immersive open world survival that still relies on third person even though it breaks immersion. I have played an equal amount of time on both types of servers (first and third) and I noticed a few cool things.

The KoSing in hardcore servers drop drastically simply because people can't sit on the hospital and look around in third person. They have to actually stand or sit and look around, exposing themselves. This is very dangerous, and anyone who isn't retarded notices this.

I believe that Dayz as a whole should remove third person. In real life, you can't look around corners without physically looking, and it gives bandits an unfair advantage. In 200 hours of hardcore servers, I have not once been unfairly killed because the bandit could seee before I could see him.

Imagine that you run around a corner and see a man with a gun in the street. There could have been two options in this situation:

In hardcore servers, you both saw each other at the same time, giving equal reaction time.

In regular servers, you could have seen him in third person without exposing yourself.

People all around these forums keep talking about immersion breaking, yet they overlook one of the largest aspects of immersion, such as feeling that you are your character, instead of looking over his shoulder.

If third person was removed entirely, then players would be nearly completely immersed

<merging>

[Jamz 253]

Ah this again, lol. Surely this isn't even an issue now with both different types of server? I suppose people will always just enjoy arguing about it.

[MagneticToast 102]

I seriously do not get and never will get the people who think this game needs to be realistic and want all of these ridiculous realistic changes yet only play the game peeking over walls and around corners in 3rd person. It ruins the game.

[Accolyte 1727]

Right.. so.. let's stop this bickering, please.

 

The topic is 

Third Person View should be Over-the-Shoulder, NOT a bird's eye view

 

It is not 1st person > 3rd person or vice versa and it most certainly is not about pointing fingers at each other.

 

Thread cleaned. Stick to the topic.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Accolyte

[gibonez 3633]

Ah this again, lol. Surely this isn't even an issue now with both different types of server? I suppose people will always just enjoy arguing about it.

It's not that simple of the issues.

Many of those who enjoy third person do not like the way the camera is implemented.

Of those I bet allot don't like how the birds eye view allows for bad gameplay and wall peeking.

It's not as easy as play mode a or play mode b.

It's about let's take a look at the current camera how it affects gameplay and what improvements can be done to minimize or possibly eliminate the negatives like peeking.

[Jamz 253]

It's not that simple of the issues.

Many of those who enjoy third person do not like the way the camera is implemented.

Of those I bet allot don't like how the birds eye view allows for bad gameplay and wall peeking.

It's not as easy as play mode a or play mode b.

It's about let's take a look at the current camera how it affects gameplay and what improvements can be done to minimize or possibly eliminate the negatives like peeking.

 

I'm sure I played on a private server the other day with the view locked in very close to the shoulder. Can that be done on private servers by admin? It was a bit annoying but I could get used to it.

[DocWolf 146]

The fix to the "peeking issue" is a dynamic 3pp camara, NOT over the shoulder view. With the dynamic camera added when you get close to an object the camera zooms in so you can't peek around corners. SIMPLE problem solved! Quit Fing wining about it!

 

That's a good solution, IMHO. The only problem (if we really want to call it that) with 3rd person view is indeed "peeking", and moving the camera automatically closer to the shoulder of the character when he's facing an obstacle should prevent any issue. I'm not sure that permanent over-the-shoulder camera could be good...very few games implemented such a close view in a good way. Most of them implement it very, very badly.

 

Dynamic camera could be the answer...if, again, we seriously want to define wall peeking as a problem. With 50-man servers the map hardly becomes a battlefield, the core of the game is not PvP and anyway everyone in 3rd person servers can wall-peek. Yes, it's immersion-breaking and yes, I personally frown upon such practices...but calling it an issue is a little far fetched.

[gibonez 3633]

That's a good solution, IMHO. The only problem (if we really want to call it that) with 3rd person view is indeed "peeking", and moving the camera automatically closer to the shoulder of the character when he's facing an obstacle should prevent any issue. I'm not sure that permanent over-the-shoulder camera could be good...very few games implemented such a close view in a good way. Most of them implement it very, very badly.

Dynamic camera could be the answer...if, again, we seriously want to define wall peeking as a problem. With 50-man servers the map hardly becomes a battlefield, the core of the game is not PvP and anyway everyone in 3rd person servers can wall-peek. Yes, it's immersion-breaking and yes, I personally frown upon such practices...but calling it an issue is a little far fetched.

If course combat and PvP is a small part of the game but PvP being as fair as possible is especially important due to the cost of death in the game.

In a game where when you die you have to start over again from scratch don't you think that every possible measure should be taken in order to ensure that the player died due to another player being more skilled and or lucky?

With the peeking in place getting killed by a player using these tactics is no better then the player who goes inside walls out the guy who looks at walls at the right angle in order to see through them.

All of those situations are the result of exploits that should not be hurting gameplay especially dayz.

I suppose wall peeking would be fine in a game where life has little value such as cod or battlefield but even they don't make that mistake.

[DocWolf 146]

If course combat and PvP is a small part of the game but PvP being as fair as possible is especially important due to the cost of death in the game

At the moment the cost of death is high only on paper and likely will be even further down development process.

What you loose in DayZ when you die? You can't customize your character now; you (probably) will be in the future, but I doubt we're talking about Skyrim-level customization so loosing a poorly customized character shouldn't be a real issue. You don't see any visual progression of your character surviving; talks about ragged clothes, beards and such are stuck to a few concept art images dated before public alpha...no real plan to implement them has been announced. Your character does not even have a name: you log in with your player handle, and even that does not change upon death. No real timers to spawn back in, no penalities or anything...you die, you wait some seconds and you're back in ready to run again in Chernarus.

Yes, you loose loot...but I think it's pretty clear to everyone the developers are not going towards the "extreme realism" road when tackling the surival part of the game. So, you loose good equipment but you can still find new stuff. I'm not sure why the developers (and some players) are trumpeting so much the permadeath feature of the game: while I appreciate the idea and the survivalist in me drool in anticipation, I'm realist enough to understand that permadeath cannot be truly implemented in a videogame.

 

In a game where when you die you have to start over again from scratch don't you think that every possible measure should be taken in order to ensure that the player died due to another player being more skilled and or lucky?

I don't know. I doubt the developers are looking only to player-caused deaths when they try to balance their product (even if PvP has been the major protagoinst of the whole development process up to date)...so, even if people use 3rd person view to peek around in certain situations I doubt they classify that as a major exploit or a terrible issue to be worked out of the game ASAP.

Let me get this straight: I don't like this feature, but I don't consider it the bane of all living things some people here like to paint when describing the issue. A simple dynamic camera could easily resolve this problem, avoiding so many overreactions we were able to read in this thread.

Edited November 19, 2014 by DocWolf

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Well the view could be lowered like 1/4 of a screen and maybe bring bit closer to the character.

 

/Oh I voted for "3rd person shouldn't exists" because that's how i feel.

Edited November 19, 2014 by St. Jimmy

[kritikal 5]

It's pretty sad when the debate in this thread went from suggestions on how to improve third person to the typical "first person shouldn't try to change third" and vice-versa.  From the jump, the OP specifically stated that he had no intent to even imply the opinion of removing third-person.  The debate here is how to improve third person by removing its inherent advantages.  Yes, most third-person players are used to the angle of the camera and used to peeking over walls/obstacles/etc.  Just because the public is used to something does not mean that things shouldn't change.  The world was used to slavery until brave people fought to abolish it in civilized countries. TPP isn't the problem; the current implementation of it, though, is. It truly turns Dayz into Camp Online.

 

If you're already in an elevated position where there isn't higher elevation to spot you, you have a superior tactical advantage, and that advantage is heightened ad infinitum by being able to cover a vast amount of now visible area with virtually zero risk.  Find a target?  Call it out or plan your attack so that by the time the poor victim sees you, you already have a head shot lined up and they stand zero chance provided your zeroing or ability to aim is even half way decent.  Being able to see without being seen is truly a crutch, and I will admit that I gratuitously abuse the feature because I have the capability to do so.

 

If I'm posted up in a building covering a decent area, I will not die. I will see people coming at least 30 seconds in advance and as far as they're aware, the area is desolate. Since they can't see me, I will sneakily move to a position where I cannot be "peeked" and ready to lay waste to the unsuspecting player whom relies on the "exploit" so much that their reaction time has barely improved from day zero because it didn't need to.  Humans have to adapt to their surroundings, and abilities to react are part of that.  If you've spent your whole life in a bubble and never had to catch a falling object, if the situation occurs 30 years into your life, I can virtually guarantee that you will not make that catch.  It's, essentially, "dumbing" down the player base.

 

In essence, I as a player enjoy both games modes -- they both have their pros and cons.  I play TPP because it's "easier", because most of my friends play TPP, and it's fun to be hated because the perspective is too damn easy once you learn how to manipulate the mechanics to your advantage.  Cover an area with a half dozen guys all covering each other, and good luck eliminating them when they see you coming but until they start shooting, are essentially invisible.

 

4th wall looks promising, but is a change with flaws of its own.  The sudden appearance of an object in TPP would be even more of a giveaway that something that is not the terrain is present, especially in the distance.  Skills like sniping would be restricted to counter sniping some noob that hasn't realized they're more exposed than they ever were.

 

At this time, either alter the camera's height or don't allow three-dimensional rotation of the third person camera.  Peeking (through windows) commonly occurs by lowering the torso causing the camera to not be above and behind, but above and in front.  Peeking over roofs is simply due to the height of the camera, and peeking over wall is a combined A and B.  Too subtle a change and it won't be any better than the given system, while too drastic a change will completely eliminate most people using the third person perspective due to there being no massive advantage to offset the lesser, but also important, inherent disadvantage (inaccuracy in combat, loss of vision of what's in front of your body).

 

You're already angering the masses with things as they are, and even more will be angered with any changes whatsoever, so that's likely why they haven't made any significant changes to it.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't -- might as well be damned with less effort.

 

Have my beans, there's my two cents.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Kritikal

[Briljin 102]

The KoSing in hardcore servers drop drastically simply because people can't sit on the hospital and look around in third person. They have to actually stand or sit and look around, exposing themselves. This is very dangerous, and anyone who isn't retarded notices this.

 

Actually it just reduces the dumb ass factor, those people who don't actually know how to find a good place to sit in ambush.  Sure you have to expose yourself but there is plenty of concealment in cities for one to hide in, the roof is just the easy way out and actually tends to be countered by snipers who know better.

 

 

I believe that Dayz as a whole should remove third person. In real life, you can't look around corners without physically looking, and it gives bandits an unfair advantage.

 

It gives everyone the same advantage, just not always at the same time.  Just like someone can peak over the roof of the hospital to watch for players, you can peak around the corner of a hallway before you walk into a trap.  Like most advantages in Dayz, they just don't always apply equally all the time.   And while "peaking" isn't realistic, neither is our ability to observe our surroundings in 1pp because it only represents two senses (and doesn't do a great job with those two).  

 

 

 

The dynamic camera could be a decent idea, at least worth looking into but I would be worried about the camera jerking around as I move between buildings and such.  I don't want to fight with the camera to maintain a point of view, I just don't want it drifting over a wall or around a corner.  Anyone have a decent video from a game using this type of system?

 

 

 

 

[jimgun 64]

I'd prefer the dev's spent their time working on other stuff rather than deploy resources in changing a camera mode that the majority of people who have answered the question in the poll seem happy with.

 

If something like this would be to happen I'd hope they added it as an extra option and further promote choice rather than change the current 3rd person.

[evil koala 22]

I'd prefer the dev's spent their time working on other stuff rather than deploy resources in changing a camera mode that the majority of people who have answered the question in the poll seem happy with.

 

If something like this would be to happen I'd hope they added it as an extra option and further promote choice rather than change the current 3rd person.

 

47.83% is not the majority when 52.17% would like to see a change of some sort.

[jimgun 64]

47.83% is not the majority when 52.17% would like to see a change of some sort.

 

I could equally say that 80% disagree with "The over the shoulder option". The option with the greatest number of votes on the poll is clearly "Leave it alone." :|

[CJFlint 357]

That's a good solution, IMHO. The only problem (if we really want to call it that) with 3rd person view is indeed "peeking", and moving the camera automatically closer to the shoulder of the character when he's facing an obstacle should prevent any issue. I'm not sure that permanent over-the-shoulder camera could be good...very few games implemented such a close view in a good way. Most of them implement it very, very badly.

 

Dynamic camera could be the answer...if, again, we seriously want to define wall peeking as a problem. With 50-man servers the map hardly becomes a battlefield, the core of the game is not PvP and anyway everyone in 3rd person servers can wall-peek. Yes, it's immersion-breaking and yes, I personally frown upon such practices...but calling it an issue is a little far fetched.

Indeed I think it would be a fix "dynamic camera", that would be hard for even the "Hardcore" 1pp players to complain about. gibonez brought up the name for it "dynamic camera". The over the shoulder view, I think is really just it not a good fix. Infact really just 1st person view, slightly disimbodied. It seems like its just something to cator 1pp "hardcore" players who are clearly in the minority.

 

I define the peeking issue as a vary minor issue. It really only is effective for close quarters, and even then it not that effective against exp pvpers. Other then that it dosn't help players that much.

 

I play this game all the time, some times I take short breaks but play quite abit. I also play with other players off and on. Clans and small groups ect. Talked allot about the game in team speak, while going point a to b. I honestly don't recall this "peeking" issue being brought up, or this whole 1pp vs 1pp/3pp crap. Not once. I think really its just an issue that has become totally over blown here on the forums alone. Minor issues like this become totally over blown here.

 

I think there 2 reasons for it.

 

1) Egos. The hardcore server tag went to peoples head. When the servers said "hardcore" it made feel like they were "hardcore" for playing on them.They feel 3pp are not as hardcore as they are <_< ...as dumb as that sounds its the truth.

2) Frustration with the game. Dayz is really a really unforgiving perma death game. You die you have to start all over again. I think to some people its hard for them to take. They get upset even freak out. They want to blame there in game failures on something, this issue def is one of them. I'm not kidding. You been on team speak and heard someone completly lose there shit, freak out and start blaming there game failures on every thing else expect them selves. These are the same people. You see you have to clense and filter the forums of bs.

 

Becuase some of the best player I ever met playing this game never brought it up. Were talking people who play both server types. Becuase its a not really that big of an issue.

Edited November 19, 2014 by CJFlint