Ok i get it.. its alpha.. but this is worse than the mod.

[AnarchyBrownies 1383]

Granted I don`t know much about developing games but I´ve seen this before in warz. So excuse me for being cautious when I hear phrases like:

"It is high on our to do list", "We are looking into it"

or

when I hear promises of super awesome features and none of them are in-game yet.

or

when I watch the devs experiencing major issues during live streams and they act mildly surprised and say "we gotta look into that" right before they charge $30.

I have no doubt that Rocket and his team have good intentions and are working hard but it`s not enough.

Something is going wrong here, maybe they don`t have enough devs or maybe it`s the wrong engine, I don`t know.

The thing that everyone knows though is money, Bohemia is not here because some of us might have cancer and they want to entertain us for free.

The price difference between Dayz-alpha and Bf4 is only 10 euros, I have a bf4 code on my table right now that came with the graphics card I bought for Dayz but I´m not opening it because I don`t like it, I want Dayz.

I would love to be wrong about the next 2 years. Maybe they will fix the basics within the next 3 month and just slap the promised features on there and in that case I´d send them 50 euros more and post a topic on how wrong I was.

But you and I know that`s not going to happen, here is what will happen:

They will patch once or twice a week for the next 1-2 month or so, then the sales will start to decrease and so will the patches and this whole thing will drag for the next 2 years.

In those 2 years we will see die hard fanboys, haters, "alpha" squeakers etc...

So again, Rocket, pls prove me wrong and make me look like an ass so everyone can enjoy the game they`ve been waiting for so long.

 

I wouldn't compare this to WarZ at all. WarZ was a scam from the start, based on someone looking to capitalize on someone else's good idea. The promises were just made to make money.

 

DayZ has never been like that. DayZ was the original idea and Dean has followed through on developing it as a standalone. There was a hell of a lot of work done over the last year to get the architecture ready and rather than try to sell people on what the game could be, they did the exact opposite. They said (paraphrasing the last year of messages): "We think it's going to be very good, but the alpha is just about getting the bare bones game to run in a stable way. Do not buy it if you're expecting a full DayZ experience."

 

The message has been DO NOT BUY THE GAME. It has never been "buy the game and we promise we'll add things", or "buy the game because this feature is in there" (when it's not). I mean look at this:

 

 

Do not buy the game yet!

 

The release of our Alpha is about getting those who want to be involved from the ground up, up and into the process. What we do encourage you to do, is to read reviews, watch livestreams and lets play videos, and talk to your friends. The alpha is going out into large scale testing for the first time, this means many things (mostly bad) will happen such as nasty bugs, connection issues, lost loot, etc... Our aim right now is to present the bare-bone architecture and check that works, getting some feedback on the direction in the process.

 

 

Here's Rocket's big release day and he's telling people not to buy the game and to wait for the critique to come in first. That's incredibly admirable and goes against everything you're trying to claim about it being about the money and false promises. If that was the only time he had said that then maybe you'd have more of a point, but this is something he's said since the start.

[Radiix (DayZ) 17]

So many criers would shut up if we just would see a frikkin ROADMAP!

[Euryalus 2]

You realize most of the development time leading up to this point has been behind the scenes stuff right?  From my understanding, the DayZ team basically reworked the entire server-side architecture to allow for more efficient use of server resources, allowing them to do more with the game.  People who wanted a new map probably don't realize how much work it takes to create a good looking, playable map on the scale of Chenarus.  It's a lot of work.  Add in the new animations, new health systems, and all the coding/animating/modelling required for stuff like handcuffs, items, clothing, and buildings, they have done a lot in a year.  

 

Doesn't make the alpha amazing and perfect, but I am having a lot of fun and prefer this to the mod already.

[liu.hy89@gmail.com 2]

Granted I don`t know much about developing games but I´ve seen this before in warz. So excuse me for being cautious when I hear phrases like:

"It is high on our to do list", "We are looking into it"

or

when I hear promises of super awesome features and none of them are in-game yet.

or

when I watch the devs experiencing major issues during live streams and they act mildly surprised and say "we gotta look into that" right before they charge $30.

I have no doubt that Rocket and his team have good intentions and are working hard but it`s not enough.

Something is going wrong here, maybe they don`t have enough devs or maybe it`s the wrong engine, I don`t know.

The thing that everyone knows though is money, Bohemia is not here because some of us might have cancer and they want to entertain us for free.

The price difference between Dayz-alpha and Bf4 is only 10 euros, I have a bf4 code on my table right now that came with the graphics card I bought for Dayz but I´m not opening it because I don`t like it, I want Dayz.

I would love to be wrong about the next 2 years. Maybe they will fix the basics within the next 3 month and just slap the promised features on there and in that case I´d send them 50 euros more and post a topic on how wrong I was.

But you and I know that`s not going to happen, here is what will happen:

They will patch once or twice a week for the next 1-2 month or so, then the sales will start to decrease and so will the patches and this whole thing will drag for the next 2 years.

In those 2 years we will see die hard fanboys, haters, "alpha" squeakers etc...

So again, Rocket, pls prove me wrong and make me look like an ass so everyone can enjoy the game they`ve been waiting for so long.

 

2 posts just to talk trash but okay.

 

Did the war z developers live stream and explain the mechanics of the game?

Did they keep the community informed throughout the process of the development?

Did they warn players not to get the game because it was a p.o.s?

 

I stopped reading your post when you compared this to war z. 

War z came out of no where, no one knew it was even being developed. Rocket has kept us informed with dev blogs along the way, he's streamed gameplay after gameplay. He's even said this alpha is a proof of concept. 

I don't know how bored u are, but your ignorant posts are just making you sound extremely stupid and uninformed. You've probably never even played the game yet. 

[herrjon 478]

So I´ve been waiting for the Standalone for over a year now and this is my honest opinion.

 

This does not look like 12 month of professional development because:

- They already had a game engine

- They already had a map

- They already had experience with the mod

- They must have earned good money from the mod induced Arma sales so that can`t be an excuse

 

I'll just stop you right there

-They had a start of an engine.  They took engines of different BI products, stripped them down, and combined them to better suit their needs.  At the end of the day, they essentially built a new engine.  The fact that they did that in ONLY a year is a miracle.

-Again, they had a start of a map.  Sure it's the same idea, and had a lot of the original, but it is not the same map.  There is plenty more added and changed, and making nearly all the buildings enterable is no small feat.  I'd love to see you try to make a 225 sq km map with plenty of interesting towns and enterable buildings, and make it look graphically good, in one year.

-Sure they have experience with the mod, but as stated in point one, they have a new engine.  Their time went into that first and foremost, and while things will seem similar, it won't just be copy and pasting stuff in for the final product.  The only reason it seems like the mod now is because they've reused old assets to have the game in a playable and testable state.

-Arma sales goes directly to BI, not the DayZ team.  Sure they may have been what caused all the sales, sure they need the money, but it's entirely up to BI what they do with that money.  Dean doesn't have a say in it.

 

I suggest you learn a bit more about game development before you start criticizing its progress.

Edited December 20, 2013 by (TMW)HerrJon

[Cinnabuns 45]

Yeah, I think the OP is just coming from a place of development ignorance which he has already conceded.

 

When a AAA title comes out and their total development time was 3-5 years on that particular title.  If it was a 3 year cycle, probably 1.5 years of that time went in to JUST making the game engine, to included no assets at all.  If it took 5 years to make the game, you can believe that 2-3 years of that time was spent solely on the game engine.

 

This is only true when a new engine is created for the game which is the case when talking about DayZ.  Games like Modern Warfare or Battlefield where the next iteration comes out every year, the devs are utilizing the same engine and most of the assets and they're basically just creating a map pack, adding some features to the engine and maybe adding some new assets if time allows prior to release deadline. 

 

That's also why many gamers despise those franchises and argue that basically you spend $60 for a map pack every year and a couple new things, and that argument has a lot of merit.

 

To go from where DayZ was to where it is now, even if they had not made a single new asset (which they have...lots), all in a year or so is really both an incredible undertaking and also, in this case, a massive achievement.

 

Also, once the game engine is completed (for the most part) and begins to run things expectedly and repeatably, then the team can focus on assets, sound, animation, etc.  This work can be done at a much faster pace and also, everything that is completed and put in to the game the player can instantly recognize as, "wow they've added a lot of stuff and are working hard".

 

I think the OP just lacks an understanding of all of this.

[species5021 28]

I love the rage post. Let me take this moment to welcome back all the hardcore testers from the original mods beta.

 

The people who spend hours of their day trying to get into a server because the connecting was so shoddy, who started in a world that was even buggier then this one, with an inventory system that sucked so bad you needed a guide on how to use it.

 

Who could not even defend themselves by melee because it was not present yet and died in droves at the coast because of the zombie horde.

 

The state of the mod back then was so much worse then this is now, by todays standards the standalone is done. You payed more for your shitty call of duty and battlefield 4 which were unfinished, still arent finished and had millions invested in it and made by a company of hundreds.

 

You are just a disappointed fanboy, and when the mod kicks off after a couple dozen patches you will be playing just like the rest of us, so go sit in your sad little corner and wait.

[SixGunLover 54]

The only "big" issue that i have currently with the game is that its always night when i feel like playing but most importantly teaching some friend how to play; what is a bug, what is not, what is already in game, what will be added, etc. That unfortunate that their first impression is bad since they can't find a daytime server to learn the basic, how to play and be "ready" for the night time.

My guess is that it will be addressed in priority, but that still unfortunate.

[Keskin (DayZ) 1]

2 posts just to talk trash but okay.

 

Did the war z developers live stream and explain the mechanics of the game?

Did they keep the community informed throughout the process of the development?

Did they warn players not to get the game because it was a p.o.s?

 

I stopped reading your post when you compared this to war z. 

War z came out of no where, no one knew it was even being developed. Rocket has kept us informed with dev blogs along the way, he's streamed gameplay after gameplay. He's even said this alpha is a proof of concept. 

I don't know how bored u are, but your ignorant posts are just making you sound extremely stupid and uninformed. You've probably never even played the game yet. 

Well I read your whole post and it was a waste of time cause you`re not getting any of it fan boy. I´m on noones side and I already stated that warz is the worst game in history but your fanboyism is clouding your brain so I forgive you [ :)]

What counts for me is the product that people pay money for and this product will take another 2 years to reach the state they envisioned.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Keskin

[zfleming12 395]

Compare this Alpha to the WarZ Alpha and the WarZ current state.

Compare the Mod to WarZ alpha and the WarZ current state.
You have your answer. :)

[flashstep 10]

I can't help but wonder if every one of the people complaining about the status of the standalone are THE SAME PEOPLE that complained about them not releasing the game yet. There are always these types of people in a game development cycle who complain and complain that the dev's aren't releasing the game to the public for testing and that they are lazy and worthless, then when the game is released they complain about how unfinished it is and how bad the dev's have done at making the game so far.

 

It's like internet trolls, don't feed them and they move on to a new alpha/beta hype and continue their rage their instead.

[Keskin (DayZ) 1]

I'll just stop you right there

-They had a start of an engine.  They took engines of different BI products, stripped them down, and combined them to better suit their needs.  At the end of the day, they essentially built a new engine.  The fact that they did that in ONLY a year is a miracle.

-Again, they had a start of a map.  Sure it's the same idea, and had a lot of the original, but it is not the same map.  There is plenty more added and changed, and making nearly all the buildings enterable is no small feat.  I'd love to see you try to make a 225 sq km map with plenty of interesting towns and enterable buildings, and make it look graphically good, in one year.

-Sure they have experience with the mod, but as stated in point one, they have a new engine.  Their time went into that first and foremost, and while things will seem similar, it won't just be copy and pasting stuff in for the final product.  The only reason it seems like the mod now is because they've reused old assets to have the game in a playable and testable state.

-Arma sales goes directly to BI, not the DayZ team.  Sure they may have been what caused all the sales, sure they need the money, but it's entirely up to BI what they do with that money.  Dean doesn't have a say in it.

 

I suggest you learn a bit more about game development before you start criticizing its progress.

I don`t care what they did with the engine, it looks almost the same, has almost the same awkward controls, lag and has even less features atm.

I could either walk 10km to the next city or turn the other way, travel all around the world and reach the same city.

What counts is the outcome.

 

When I start Dayz standalone, it says Bohemia interactive and you just said that all the mod induced sales from Arma went to Bohemia Interactive. Are you even reading the stuff you`re writing?

Btw, I like how you pass my valid points with a short "sure they had that" and keep on expanding on how hard it was to modify the things that were already there.

 

And you don`t have to defend Dean or Bohemia, I know how business works but again, it says "created by Dean Hall" and then it also says "Bohemia Interactive".

If you can proudly take credit and earn millions, you will sure as hell take some valid criticism along with it. Especially if you charge more than promised and more than what its actually worth.

 

I´m seeing this whole thing from a gamers perspective and gamers have to start demanding better products for their money.

[carnimaster 5]

I don`t care what they did with the engine, it looks almost the same, has almost the same awkward controls, lag and has even less features atm.

I could either walk 10km to the next city or turn the other way, travel all around the world and reach the same city.

What counts is the outcome.

 

When I start Dayz standalone, it says Bohemia interactive and you just said that all the mod induced sales from Arma went to Bohemia Interactive. Are you even reading the stuff you`re writing?

Btw, I like how you pass my valid points with a short "sure they had that" and keep on expanding on how hard it was to modify the things that were already there.

 

And you don`t have to defend Dean or Bohemia, I know how business works but again, it says "created by Dean Hall" and then it also says "Bohemia Interactive".

If you can proudly take credit and earn millions, you will sure as hell take some valid criticism along with it. Especially if you charge more than promised and more than what its actually worth.

 

I´m seeing this whole thing from a gamers perspective and gamers have to start demanding better products for their money.

Oh look another self entitled "gamer"

[herrjon 478]

I´m seeing this whole thing from a gamers perspective and gamers have to start demanding better products for their money.

 

This is really all that's worth responding to at this point, since you clearly don't know how software works or how development companies work.  The only thing I will mention on that topic is the sales of Arma II went into producing Arma III, not DayZ.  That's what BI decided to do with their money, and that's their right a company to do so.

 

 

I understand the $30 is a bit steep, and for some is not worth what was available out the gate, but you aren't buying just the alpha and that's it.  You will have access to the game as it progresses and will be worth more in the long run.

 

Not only that, but it is a promise and investment to help the game be developed.  If you want to see DayZ the idea become a game, and help with its production, you invest some money into it.  Rocket said time and time again that the alpha at release will be a veritable pile of crap and warned people not to buy it.  He asked those on the fence to watch videos and livestreams before purchasing, and to honestly consider if you want to invest that money.

 

If someone bought into the alpha with any expectation at all and without doing their research on its true state, that's their own fault.  They have no one to blame but themselves and I sincerely hope they use this as a learning experience when considering instantly buying into early access again.

 

 

I think I've spend enough time in this thread.  I'll leave it to burn into the ground while the game keeps on going.  Stay classy folks.

 

Edit:  Oh yeah, and I'll just leave this here:  http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/155089-is-it-worth-buying-dayz-standalone-yet-rocket-response/#entry1554128

Edited December 20, 2013 by (TMW)HerrJon

[PongoZ 127]

the alpha is way way better then any version of the mod, if your a survivor player, way way better.

the concept is better, the interactions with the environment are better, the content on the map is far better. The fatigue and energy and fluid maintenance is way better then some timer. 

the whole thing is just far supperior to any version of the mod.

Its missing lots of things but what is there is far better

[Cinnabuns 45]

 

And you don`t have to defend Dean or Bohemia, I know how business works but again, it says "created by Dean Hall" and then it also says "Bohemia Interactive".

If you can proudly take credit and earn millions, you will sure as hell take some valid criticism along with it. Especially if you charge more than promised and more than what its actually worth.

 

I´m seeing this whole thing from a gamers perspective and gamers have to start demanding better products for their money.

 

This is a perfectly valid argument if {

     X == "Especially if you charge more than promised"

     Y == "and more than what its actually worth."

     Z == "gamers have to start demanding better products for their money."

}

endif

 

The only problem is, none of these things are true.  Dean Hall played around with pricing suggestions, probably threw out some numbers he should not have that his PR department is up-in-arms about, but never promised a price for the alpha.  Never, did he promise anything.

 

The alpha's worth to me is fine.  $30 bones, US.  No problem.  This is subjective.  Its worth more to some and less to others.  If they want to be involved in the alpha and provide feedback to help out, and also get the game substantially discounted (probably 50% off?)  then its really hard to say one way or the other if "its worth it" or not.  It depends on too many factors to be relevant and most likely is an emotional response.  In fact, if every developer/publisher offered me their games in alpha state for 50% off, that is when I would buy them.  Let it sit till the game came out and play it then.  No publisher wants to deal with the amount of community backlash from those uneducated in the ways of game development, and this is why most of them steer clear of this "alpha" type release.  Mr. Hall never promised, but he said there would be early access and he has kept his word.

 

Gamers DO have to start demanding better products for their money.  I honestly and completely agree with you on that point.  Games and game content/mechanics/stories have fallen off the deep end of action cinema or bad recycled drole of games that were far superior in every way.  The only thing we're forgetting here is, this alpha is not a product yet.  We were instructed by the people that made it not to buy it because it was not a product yet.  If it were a clone of a human, It is a child in its alpha infancy state.  It is not a finished product, was not advertised as a finished product, and won't be a finished product for a while.  This is because its an alpha, not a beta. 

 

I played Counter Strike 1.0 beta and it was buggy.  Most things worked as expected but many things did not.  Most things looked as expected but many things did not.  It was a beta.  DayZ is an alpha.  This is the stage prior to beta.  What alpha means in the computer world is, it barely functions but it functions.  This is not a product for general consumption and this fact was made clear in more than 1 way on both the purchase pages on Steam and on the game's site.

 

So really we've tested for truth on all counts of this argument and all have tested false.  These are not valid arguments.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Cinnabuns

[yotimmyg@gmail.com 21]

Hello...

 

I'm the OP...  I have been afk for 2 days.. and I regret that becuase there has been some great back and forth on this forum.

 

Ive only read up to... I think page 6 or 7 but I would like to thank everyones amazing opinions but especially 'wolffe', he took what i said.. LITERALLY.. and i cant stress that word enough...

 

I want to thank wolffe for being on my side and saying what I had not the words nor skill to say..

 

I'll admit.. i was drunk .. i was angry but my words stand (apart from that hate towards dean himself.. im sure he is a nice guy) . Dean did bite off more than  he could chew though.. his dream was great.. his delivery came out so wrong. ive had 5 days of playing this game and i could write a long thesis on what i think it is and what it is not. and I may...

 

regardless I plan on reading the rest of this forum... damn we up to page 14...  

 

there are so many pages... which i look forward to reading... 

 

I also want to thank all the people who liked my post... was harsh but fueled by passion of this game.

[RoyalForce (DayZ) 1]

I got a lot smoother gameplay than DayZ Mod, the lag is minimal for my sh*tty pc.

[yotimmyg@gmail.com 21]

Surely after the million dollars they have just made of steam they can employ more than 6 people.

After all the money just pulled in they should employ a squad of new Day Z workers and get the sh*t finished ASAP.

Taking another year is taking the piss in my opinion!

 

NE0

 

 

still on page 7...

 

BUT THIS!!!

 

THIS FOR SURE

[yotimmyg@gmail.com 21]

I think fanboys should just gtfo of this forum. All they do is quote Rockets warning and keep saying its an ALPHA. We all know its an ALPHA. Thats why we complain and tell the developers whats should be fixed. Like that loot only spawn at server restart.Eventually the loot will be completly gone at the coast and near by and that will make it hopless to go further north. Yes the game is suppose to be hard, but also enjoyable and its NOT enjoyable now.

 

I hope Rocket doesn't listen to fanboys because then the ALPHA would not improve because they just say great ALPHA  Rocket, nothing is wrong with it.

 

This post came immediately after the one i just praised...

THIS

 

THIS POST

 

THIS

[yotimmyg@gmail.com 21]

Mouse control is awful-worse than Arma 2

Acceleration and flickery aim - this is the prime problem in my opinion how can it feel good when the mouse is like aiming on Sticky ice?

Push in Arma 3's aiming mechanics should have been the first thing they did in the last year, i just dont get it. Its Sh*t aiming. Worse than Arma 2.

 

The frame rate is jumpy- the same map in Arma 3 's engine is more stable on my system

 

There are literally no  zombies, i've seen 3 in several hours and many miles covered

 

The loot system needs work

 

The text based system of health/ drink is cr*p. Worse than icons in my opinion. Breaking point mod had a far more realistic and beautiful way- eg. hungry belly rumbles, head pumps for a drink, Day Z mod just writes a bit of text?! Which seems lazier and just not fit for the purpose. That bottom left area is for chat and seeing whos connecting not constant Spam messages saying Im hungry. Icons where better, Breaking Point Arma 3 did the whole no icons things way better. Seriously the whole health text thing Sucks very hard from where I am sitting.

 

Same problems as mod: Combat logging, and new problem full servers no loot

 

Summary:

 

Negative:

Aiming feels clunky as hell Acceleration problems persit even though Arma 3 fixed all that, you have used old sh*t engine not 2.5 as some people claim

Movement system is worse (in Arma 2 you can use a single button to toggle crouch, in DAY Z:SA you have to have a stand up button)

He also moves in big obvious footsteps now and movement seems more digital less analog

Badly optimised server and map

Bad system for health

Servers are all 40/40 in UK and impossible to play in prime time (5pm onwards)

Servers are stuck on night time even in day

Hardly any zombies or loot]

Combat logging, Server hopping, NO Security against this cr*p

-Even breaking point (hate to keep bringing it up, but) has a system that makes you wait 10 minute s if you change server, and 30 seconds before logging out. Simple, but would work effectively in SA

People are using gamma cheat to have bright at night -should have used Arma 3 's way of not enhancing shadows - see other threads. Simple fix .

 

Positive:

Character creation system (but none are as cool as the simple camo face from Arma 2)

Clothing and inventory is slightly improved

Sun rays

Nice to play official mod

 

So overall, I think its a bad job and im dissapointed but continuin to play. Before everyone flames, I KNOW ITS AN ALPHA

The point of an alpha for me, is to be critical and constructive critism, as I have highlighted ways and solutions , and let the developer know my thoughts so far.

I am happy it was released in time for christmas and will encourage many new players. Currently I feel Breaking Point is in a better state than this mod.

 

 

 

Nice list... and i agree totally.

 

He has drawn to light things that are worse they were originally.... also,

 

opposed to things that could be better,, which immedately filters out the OMG ITS JUST ALPHA nay sayers...

 

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE NEW ADDITIONS!!..

 

They are clunky and laggy and dont work properly... which he kinda covered.

Edited December 21, 2013 by dirty_malone

[Hosty 647]

You guys don't get it.

Negativity and feedback is essential for the fixing of bugs/features.

 

Hate isn't.

 

 

/thread

Edited December 21, 2013 by Hosty

[Mr Nasty 1023]

OP and the like have you signed up for the bug reports section of the forums? Have you seen the information contained within? Do you know if concerns have already been brought up there and are being addressed?

 

I can honestly say nothing you all have brought up is something that hasn't already been discussed. There are posts and threads stating the same things making this one redundant. Please, continue to rip the fan boys. I'm sure we have much to learn from 'know it alls' such as yourself. Clearly we have no interest in making this game better. None.

 

And to the brilliant mind that stated "I hope Rocket doesn't listen to fanboys because then the ALPHA would not improve because they just say great ALPHA  Rocket, nothing is wrong with it." Are you serious with this? Do you even read Rocket's posts? Obviously you don't because if you did you would know that he is not happy with the state of the game and is working tirelessly to improve it.

 

Just because people commend the team on their work thus far does not mean they dont want to see massive improvements. I thought that would be easy for people to understand.... Then again this is the internet full of an infinite amount of imbeciles.

[yotimmyg@gmail.com 21]

The DayZ team should have spent the last year perfecting the basic game. We should be at the point where;

 

- Zombies perfected

- Loot & spawn system perfected

- Health system perfected

- Major glitches and bugs eliminated

 

Then upon its release in 'Alpha' state, they should begin rolling out character/weapon customization and all the other little features that are planned for the games eventual state.

 

Instead, it has been created in the exact opposite fashion whereby all of the core features of the game are a long way behind the state of the Day Z mod and instead, the team have spent 1.5 years adding & changing things that are really answering questions that no one had asked;

 

- New lakes

- New roads

- Custom clothing

- Custom weapons

- Majority of buildings open

etc etc

 

All of the above are great features and eventually will make the game brilliant, but they should have been added after the foundations of the game were in place.

 

I don't think that when the mod was in its prime, people were screaming for new t-shirts. They were screaming for a playable game that was on the horizon. The team really got their priorities wrong.

 

 

This guy gets it...

 

OMG he gets it...

 

 

I LVOE THIS POST

 

you get my beans.... not via this website... but u do get them.

[Death_Dealer 3155]

Constructive criticism is perfectly okay, and you won't get flamed shitless for it

 

However you're simply coming on here and saying that Dean will quit and this will all be a complete failure (pure speculation), did you not expect people to get upset?