First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[S3V3N 1402]

Sure you can, it feels right because we are in 1st person in real life.

But not like that. In most games the head-bobbing is far from realistic and just goes around in weird circles. Arma series was one of those games.

[Accolyte 1727]

Imagine if cheats were legit and available to everyone from the go. That's what 3PP is right now. Casuals will play that, but some people will realize that it's wrong and unfitting for DayZ.

 

It's not a cheat if everyone has access to it. I just wish people would stop saying this nonsense.

[mercules 1290]

It's not a cheat if everyone has access to it. I just wish people would stop saying this nonsense.

Not being a "cheat" and not being "exploitable" is not the same thing though. You can't honestly tell me that 3PP can't be exploited. I know that most will say, "Well you have access to it just like the other people." Yes I do, but 3PP favors campers. That means it favors those who have already looted and are ready and gives them even MORE of an advantage over the "bambis". A geared up player can wander to the coast or hangout near a military spawn and camp it. They have what they need and don't have to move. The bambi has to move or starve. They have to find gear.

It also trivializes already weak zombies. You can easily see them around corners and over fences and prepare or avoid them. Playing 1PP last night I turned a corner into the face of a zombie and got whacked before I could slip away. Ruined my jacket and damaged an item inside. In 3PP I would have spotted it easily(I have in identical situations) and slipped away.

In addition 3PP turns a battle into "Hide and pop shot." Covering fire doesn't work to pin people down so they don't see others movement and so many other tactics including CQC clearing of a building are gone.

In my honest opinion there is no reason to play a game in 3PP if you have a 1PP option so why WASTE development time on 3PP?

[mercules 1290]

And then it just becomes clear that it's elitist thinking in action; people who play things differently and arguably more easily should not be able to play the way they do because it's easier. And that's what I disagree with - it's easier, but so what? There are multiple options for a reason. More people pick option A? Again, so what? Are you better because you pick option B? I just don't think that's the case.

The issue with having it all is that you will always have "that guy" friend who wants to play "the easy way". It's the friend who will donate to get the starter kit on those servers that allow it missing the point of a survival game. The same guy who wants map markers and waypoints to work so they don't have to bother with navigation. We all have that friend and if we want to play with them we have to play "easy mode".

The other issue is the fact that the majority of people given two options will take the easiest option even if it is, in the end, less rewarding. If I offered most kids either $2 to wash the dishes and a trip to the store to buy whatever they wanted with the $2 or the opportunity to sit and watch TV while I did the dishes and a candy bar I had on hand worth less, most would chose the second option.

I honestly believe the people who play 3PP are cheating themselves of a much better experience for the sake of convenience.

[Rauchsauger 94]

One could argue that 3pp is actually more difficult than 1pp for the exact same reasons you post...

Edited December 6, 2015 by Rauchsauger

[mercules 1290]

One could argue that 3pp is actually more difficult than 1pp for the exact same reasons you post...

One could, but they would be laughed at. It's not more difficult to be able to see what loot is in the deer stand by standing on the ground and swinging the camera around. It's not more difficult to avoid every zombie in town because you can see them coming with simple camera swings. (Zombies are not dangerous most of the time but they do risk giving your position away to more dangerous threats like players). Finding a gun and ammo then sitting on top of a building and "scouting" in a manner where no one can see you back so that you can pop up and shoot them in the back isn't more difficult. As for the target it's not more difficult for them either because they simply avoid any of the "sniper positions". Neither of them take a risk and the game stagnates.

In 1PP both the hiding sniper and the target have to expose themselves to see the other. There is risk and that risk equal difficulty.

[Accolyte 1727]

It's part of the game. It's part of any 3pp multiplayer game. If you don't like playing around it just play on 1pp servers. I will never understand why people need to constantly debate this since there really isn't any more to the discussion than what I've just said.

[S3V3N 1402]

It's part of the game. It's part of any 3pp multiplayer game. If you don't like playing around it just play on 1pp servers. I will never understand why people need to constantly debate this since there really isn't any more to the discussion than what I've just said.

The thing I'm actually hoping for is that this will become a blessing in the end. I have already explained how I like having two characters - one on 3rd, one on 1st player. This way you can have a character to muck around with and one for serious camp-making and survival. The other thing however is that most dickheads play on 3rd person (e.g. all Twitchers). That's not a generalisation of the 3rd person player, but an observation I've made from experience. People on 3rd person often want to play a shooter, not the survival experience. They don't care that much about their character and just want to get geared and good to go shooting; of course there are many others, but that is the majority. The 1p players are somewhat more approachable, though they can be really hard to befriend. A lot of lone wolves on 1p, lot of groups on 3p.

 

If you manage to get friendly with someone on 1p, it's very likely you'll camp together, go looting and explore. It's more of a journey than coming to play a game of PvP. I got a lot better memories of 1p servers than 3p. And that's fine with me. Let the common players bang each other up on 3p, get the more experienced guys on 1p. Doesn't matter, how many hours you clocked on Dayz. If you never played a significant amount of 1p, you can't understand why we defend 1p so fiercely. It may seem absurd, but such a small detail can mean a very different game experience. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by S3V3N

[green_mtn_grandbob 594]

if you want more 1st person servers , then get your buddies to go in with you and rent a server and make it 1st person , and the same can be said foe 3rd person .

in other words put your money where your mouth is, we did and we rented a server 

Edited December 6, 2015 by green_mtn_grandbob

[Rauchsauger 94]

One could, but they would be laughed at. It's not more difficult to be able to see what loot is in the deer stand by standing on the ground and swinging the camera around. It's not more difficult to avoid every zombie in town because you can see them coming with simple camera swings. (Zombies are not dangerous most of the time but they do risk giving your position away to more dangerous threats like players). Finding a gun and ammo then sitting on top of a building and "scouting" in a manner where no one can see you back so that you can pop up and shoot them in the back isn't more difficult. As for the target it's not more difficult for them either because they simply avoid any of the "sniper positions". Neither of them take a risk and the game stagnates.In 1PP both the hiding sniper and the target have to expose themselves to see the other. There is risk and that risk equal difficulty.

Or you could factor in 3pp and try to take them out nonetheless... Just play on 1pp or sign up for a private survival hive. And stop trying to tell others what they should do with your one sided purpose fabricated arguments.

[mercules 1290]

Or you could factor in 3pp and try to take them out nonetheless... Just play on 1pp or sign up for a private survival hive. And stop trying to tell others what they should do with your one sided purpose fabricated arguments.

I do play on 3PP servers. One of my favorites is 3PP but I vastly prefer the better gameplay on 1st person. Remember my "telling others what they should do" from your perspective is "enriching other's lives by trying to get them to play a better game experience" from my perspective. I'm not going to stop telling people that 1PP is better until it isn't a better experience.

[mercules 1290]

It's part of the game. It's part of any 3pp multiplayer game. If you don't like playing around it just play on 1pp servers. I will never understand why people need to constantly debate this since there really isn't any more to the discussion than what I've just said.

"If you don't want to use training wheels just take them off your bike. Stop telling me I'm not really going to enjoy riding a bike and let me use my training wheels, I prefer them. What? No I don't want a tricycle. I want to ride a bike... I just like training wheels on it."

[hleVqq 139]

It's not a cheat if everyone has access to it. I just wish people would stop saying this nonsense.

 

And I wish people, especially mods, could read.

 

I was comparing 3PP to hypothetical, "legit" cheats (as in, they're cheats as we know them, however instead they become built-in features available to everyone, just like 3PP is).

 

I never called 3PP an actual, forbidden cheat. It's still essentially a wallhack, though, just a legit one.

[Accolyte 1727]

I never called 3PP an actual, forbidden cheat. It's still essentially a wallhack, though, just a legit one.

 

Cheat's a cheat. If it's a legit cheat, then it's not a cheat. Don't blame your faulty logic on my ability to read, thank you very much.

[mercules 1290]

Cheat's a cheat. If it's a legit cheat, then it's not a cheat. Don't blame your faulty logic on my ability to read, thank you very much.

You are correct, the call "legit cheats" exploits. As in, "Third person was never intended to allow a player to look over walls and around corners."

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

I love love love the misguided 3PP arguments.

 

fucking lol

 

God I wish they had never released 3PP for ARMA, where it was considered easy/casual mode there too.

 

Our player base would be a chunk smaller but still plenty big enough and we would all know that 1PP is DayZ.

 

It's sort of sad and hilarious, the belligerent pouting and sabre rattling of, "CHOICE CHOICE CHOICE CHOICE" and "EVERYONE WILL STOP PLAYING DAYZZZZZ!!!".

 

The ultimate choice will be made by the devs and I hope they release an OFFICIAL hardcore mode so the jag off's can go jag off completely forever.

 

A 1,000 lolz.

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

It bothers me that the devs haven't just taken a hard stance on this and taken actions towards their goal. On one hand they say that 3pp will never be removed, but on the other hand they regularly say things like, "[we've] considered making all official servers 1pp" or "the best way to play DayZ is 1pp". 

 

It's dumb that we have to have this argument weekly. I could almost literally copy+paste the argument from last time or the time before that or the time before that.

 

It's dumb that they never fixed this problem when it cropped up in Arma. Google it. Threads go back years and years with people complaining about it in Arma as well.

 

It's dumb that they released DayZ with 3pp at all, based on the previous issues encountered with it, especially when one factors in permadeath.

 

It's dumb that they haven't just lowered the camera and pulled it in tighter to the back of the player model. 99% of the competitive issues with it would go away for, being generous here, a day's worth of work.

Edited December 6, 2015 by ColdAtrophy

[Reacher (DayZ) 15]

I´ll tell everyone what´s really dumb....

Dumb is when stating everyone else who is NOT in favor of MY personal thoughts and liking dumb, THAT´S dumb.

If you like and favor 1pp only, that is fine, you are not dumb. If you favor 3pp gameplay, hey...you are not dumb either.

Beeing all childish over the fact that not everyone in this world will agree with you is....hang on, dumb.

 

Simple really.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Reacher

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

I´ll tell everyone what´s really dumb....

Dumb is when stating everyone else who is NOT in favor of MY personal thoughts and liking dumb, THAT´S dumb.

If you like and favor 1pp only, that is fine, you are not dumb. If you favor 3pp gameplay, hey...you are not dumb either.

Beeing all childish over the fact that not everyone in this world will agree with you is....hang on, dumb.

 

Simple really.

 

If you had actually read my post, you'd see that I'm not calling anyone dumb. I'm saying that it's stupid that this DESIGN problem has never been addressed. Us arguing with one another accomplishes absolutely nothing.

[Reacher (DayZ) 15]

If you had actually read my post, you'd see that I'm not calling anyone dumb. I'm saying that it's stupid that this DESIGN problem has never been addressed. Us arguing with one another accomplishes absolutely nothing.

It wasn´t aimed at you. There have been too much childish "agree with me or you are stupid and dumb" from both sides already. It was a react to that, not you. ;)

[emuthreat 2837]

One could argue that 3pp is actually more difficult than 1pp for the exact same reasons you post...

Difficulty is not the goal in advocating for 1pp to be the official public server setting.  It has always been about balance and immersion; two things that are verafiably compromised when using 3pp.

 

They have already stated that 3pp will not go away.  However, a somewhat recent musing of Brian Hicks suggested that they are considering making the official servers 1pp.  I agree with this idea, and have provided supporting evidence for why 1pp would be a better fit for the baseline experience.

 

Many people are angry about this, and think that since they have become used to playing the game in a certain way, that the game should continue to cater to  facilitate that niche preference.  I'll bet there are still a few holdouts players who think the game was just perfect when everybody had either a Mosin or an M4, and are genuinely put-off by all the difficulty in finding a compatible weapon and ammo combination.

Edited December 7, 2015 by emuthreat

[q.S Sachiel 470]

1pp3pp - the one place you can come to look down at people and hock snot at them for having a different opinion to you.

Thread was tolerable 2 pages back tho...

[emuthreat 2837]

It's part of the game. It's part of any 3pp multiplayer game. If you don't like playing around it just play on 1pp servers. I will never understand why people need to constantly debate this since there really isn't any more to the discussion than what I've just said.

The debate now seems to be centered around how prominent a role each of the perspectives should have in the game.  3pp is exploitable, and unbalances player interactions, and also largely negates the difficulty of navigating urban areas filled with infected.  In a game where player interaction is the main dynamic factor which drives gameplay, it seems negligent to allow a situation in which player interactions are unbalanced by the very provisions of the game.  I don't think it is at all out of order to suggest that the game be primarily focused on providing servers that use the view perspective that does not both unbalance the primary challenge of the game and trivialize the secondary challenge of the game.

 

Regardless of what people prefer, a game needs to have standards.  When it is self-evident that 3pp can be exploited to gain advantage, there is really no reasonable argument against adopting 1pp as the default setting.  Some people have cited medical concerns as a reason to not favor 1pp, but that is literally the only viable argument against mainstreaming 1pp that I have come across.

 

It's not rocket science.  When in the process of designing a game, if one discovers a mechanic that can be abused, it is in the best interest of the game to remove, or effectively mitigate the mechanic that can be abused.

 

I don't understand how anyone could seriously argue in support of an online multiplayer competitive shooter including a mechanic by which people can gain intel without risking revealing their position, and then use that knowledge to ambush unsuspecting players who never even had a fair chance to spot the other players.  It goes against the very nature of the game.

 

It would be like designing a poker table with a mirror that shows one person what the other players' cards are.  One could still grasp at straws trying to reconcile it as being fair; because everyone had the same chance to get there first and take the seat that allows the extra information to be collected in their own favor.

[emuthreat 2837]

Or you could factor in 3pp and try to take them out nonetheless... Just play on 1pp or sign up for a private survival hive. And stop trying to tell others what they should do with your one sided purpose fabricated arguments.

Let's try to look at this in the context of a formal argument.

 

Is DayZ a game driven primarily by player interactions?  (I answer yes)

 

Can 3pp be exploited to gain information without risk?  (again, yes)

 

Can 1pp be exploited to gain information without risk?  (not that I am aware of, please specify if this is incorrect)

 

Does having the ability to gain information without risk render some player interactions unbalanced?  (yes)

 

Should DayZ be offered to the public in its basic format in a condition that allows for unbalanced player interactions? (no)

 

Which perspective should be primarily offered as free to the public servers and facilitated by the developers of the game?  (1pp)

 

Please let me know if and where you find any fault in my reasoning.

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

Many people are angry about this, and think that since they have become used to playing the game in a certain way, that the game should continue to cater to that niche.  I'll bet there are still a few holdouts who think the game was just perfect when everybody had either a Mosin or an M4, and are genuinely put-off by all the difficulty in finding a compatible weapon and ammo combination.

You seem like you prefer to argue fairly. While I'm definitely on your side of the debate, I feel obliged to point out that by choosing words like 'cater,' 'niche,' and 'holdout,' as examples, you're condescending a bit, painting the other side as the enemies of progress, which isn't necessarily true on its own merits. =/

 

Still agree with you on 1pp, though. =)

 

PS EDIT: Just in case, I should state that I only threw this one out there in the interests of ensuring this thread continues to display a frankly stupefying lack of poor manners. The presence of a 1pp vs 3pp thread with so much maturity has left my mouth gaping open so long that I've not only caught flies in it, but am now charging rent to more than a dozen families of common house fly.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Funkmaster Rick