It's Been 6 Years

[pilgrim* 3514]

5 hours ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

Still the same strawman argument. Nobody is asking for "final version with no further updates." You're being incredibly disingenuous.

I was being deliberately <disingenuous> to try to draw a comment  on the FUTURE of DayZ SA for PC.   I wondered who might commit themselves.   You didn't answer my  question .

 

Please listen carefully :

If the server files are now FREE, and they are brought up to date with the next "version"  (the version folk have "waited 6 years" for)

- Then why should I NOT mount my own server & shard WITHOUT modifying the DayZ SA (PC) game content ?   -   I can then run DayZ SA completely independently of BI. - And of Steam - <oh yes>.

(only the PC version, of course)

We could understand this to mean that BI are now at the point of giving away DayZ SA on PC.

This would be an end of life-cycle action,

- would it not ?

 

I won't reply to further comments.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by pilgrim*

[Mantasisg 172]

I'm commiting. Taking my crystal ball. The future will be like that - most hated two letters in gaming industry "EA", will stop being used so much in DayZ topics. The DayZ price will rise. Some people will be happy that they actually didn't refund the game. The game will be finished and will start its life cycle, and hopefully will be played by normal people again. There will be modding, there will be a bunch of hella stupid and retarded anti climatic mods, but proper mods will dominate in modding grounds, however the most popular will be unmodded DayZ because people will be too tired to download and try mods and there will be too many bad ones, so modding reputation is going to be average. 93m meters tall statue of Dean Hall holding a 1:4 sized Saturn V rocket will be built by the coast, and will be nasty snipping spot. Radiation around Tissy will result in some weird muttations of animals and zombies.  

I'm really looking forward for next revolution of DayZ SA lifecycle. I'll run DayZ independently of BI and off steam. Why ?? I don't know, just sounds rebellious, even though makes no sense.

I wonder what will make it first to the game bicycles and bikes or modding.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Mantasisg

[Private Evans 1303]

Now this is getting interesting :)

Last year Devs showed us a first PC beta version at Gamescon...this year we did not even get a small look at a final beta or 1.0 PC version but everything was about the alpha Xbox release...We are not getting regular content updates but ...Server files...and for sure we will get modding tools before 1.0 will be feature complete....

Looking also at BI's  Incubator https://incubator.bohemia.net/ and Vigor https://www.bohemia.net/games/vigor a game that will be free to play, Xbox exclusive and developed on Unreal engine and taking also into account that we do not have any info if we will ever see a new Arma title in the future...in fact they said that they will support the Arma3 plattform for years to come, one can start to think that this here is also just only a small piece of the big puzzle...and not about the vision or dream  it all started with....

 

 

 

[pilgrim* 3514]

14 hours ago, emuthreat said:

I don't think any of us expected the need for a new engine.  But I honestly believe that it was both unforeseen (unforseeable?) and unavoidable.  No use crying over spilled milk.

As I've said before, I bought in in early 2015, expecting the game to be about halfway finished.  Figured I could get a head start and hit the ground running by the time it hit the market in earnest.  Never expected to be nearly burnt out on it before it even hit Beta.

Open world games are hard to make, apparently...

But the new engine is timely for the switch to Xbox and PlayStation games..

[OrLoK 16185]

With my gamer hat on, I think the new engine is the quantum leap both DAYZ and Arma etc required, even if some folk feel its a bit too mainstream or "consolised".

The old engine simply didn't fully work for a game mode like DAYZ, as was  proved by the mod and all its offshoots, no matter how fun they were.

BUT the rebuild/creation of the engine being not a fully "customer facing" thing and, I think, that's why folk feel the devs are "slow" or "lazy" as they cant "see" or "feel" these major foundations .

once the content starts to pour into the public builds I believe we will see folk feeling less fed up.

But, to be truthful, we can never please all the customers 100pc, but thats where modding helps greatly. Most of my free HDD space is filled with Arma mods.

[emuthreat 2837]

6 hours ago, OrLoK said:

But, to be truthful, we can never please all the customers 100pc, but thats where modding helps greatly. Most of my free HDD space is filled with Arma mods.

This is the only thing about the last couple years of DayZ development that makes me uncomfortable.  I want BI to go the extra mile post 1.0 to really flesh-out the game; maybe hard-coding more functionality into the engine in the future.  The prospect that they will leave it to modders to "finish the game" is frankly unacceptable.

That being said, after so long, nobody really can have a fair idea of what DayZ is or should be, to the point of what exact features, capabilities and content need to be in the game for it to be "feature complete" and all the EA buyers can finally say they got what they paid for in the end.

Are we supposed to use the 2015 roadmap as a reference point?  Do we take the most commonly occurring and popular features of various mods to ARMA II/III?  Do we rely on suggestions from here, steam, reddit and twitter that get lots of likes and multiple redundant submissions to gauge what exactly is "feature completeness?"
Is there one person, or a small group who have already decided what the final goal for DayZ 1.0 content and capabilities will be?

As I've said before, less and less jokingly each time, my reference point is that I want to be able to make a sandwich from scratch.  Farmed or foraged wild grains, milled to flour with a small stone and large stone, wild yeast cultured in jars with rags over the top; relatively simple.  Cheese might be a bit more complicated, but still possible if specific parts of cow innards are produced from a slaughter.  Sliced meats? I don't see why not.  Mayonnaise?  Chicken coops are in the game.  Stuffing a chicken in a burlap sack and closing it in a coop should be possible. Mustard seeds, ground and mixed with vegetable oil; vegetable oil from pulverized crops tossed in a pail of water and strained off the top after some time. Leaf of lettuce, slice of tomato? Piece of cake

This is just my joke of a reference point for what I think a well-fleshed-out crafting system might be capable of in a "finished" game.
I'm not gonna cry foul or demand a refund if it's not in the vanilla version of the game.  But if all the planned content for 1.0 is just parity with the previous iterations, it's pretty lame; considering the "been there, done that" factor.

How far should we reasonably expect the post 1.0 support/development to go?  In light of how the development has gone over the last couple years, I think a policy of "wait and see" will not sit too well with a lot of people.  Sure it could be all hacked into the game with no animations or awkward use of other existing animations.
Letting modders finish the game is a copout.  Throwing in all the content tested in pre.63 iterations, along with stuff like hazmat and basebuilding and the new weapons showcased in status reports and on trello will just feel like finally delivering the old stuff that we deserved from the start; and none of the New stuff that we have waited for.

Hopefully someone has a plan. Because if a customer who played the mod for a few months back in 2012 tries out 1.0 on XBOX and sees it as better controls and less buggy, but nothing significantly more than they already experienced, it's gonna seem an awful lot like like they spent six years reinventing the wheel.


Edit:  If we are to look at the origin of DayZ, and BI's involvement in the process, it's almost like the DayZ dev team has seen what people thought was cool in a game and clumsily cobbled together, and have taken a serious approach at doing it right and making the tools to make it feasible while looking and feeling right.
So maybe DayZ can grow like this for a few years after 1.0, drawing off the mod community for inspiration and ideas of what people want to do in a game, and BI can simply keep working at making the solid framework to facilitate these new things that people want to be able to do in video games.
Why not squeeze some more juice out of this Mod port turned extensive R&D project?  (After a solid vanilla 1.0 experience has been delivered, of course.)

Edited October 14, 2018 by emuthreat

[OrLoK 16185]

modders are NOT finishing the game.

I don't know where folk get this idea from.

 

all modding does is enable us to expand on the game.

Same as Skyrim/fallout for example.

just because some one mods in a my little pony dragon replacer, that does not mean they've finished the game for the devs.

it's boggles my tiny brain.

[emuthreat 2837]

Yeah, sorry.  It was a loaded question.  One to which an answer still eludes us; and what I think @pilgrim* has been picking away at in his usual style. 

What exactly is DayZ Standalone supposed to be when it is finished?  Is it even supposed to be finished, and will that mean that it is finished--in the colloquial sense of the term?

I'm not trying to be cynical here.  It's just kinda weird lately with talk of beta not being feature complete, and releasing mod tools and server files before 1.0 is out. 

 

[Guy Smiley 534]

1 hour ago, OrLoK said:

modders are NOT finishing the game.

I don't know where folk get this idea from.

 

all modding does is enable us to expand on the game.

Same as Skyrim/fallout for example.

just because some one mods in a my little pony dragon replacer, that does not mean they've finished the game for the devs.

it's boggles my tiny brain.

Ahhhh but, the people who are claiming this don't care about the finished version of DayZ, they want the version they played from the mod. eg. Epoch, Overpoch, BR.... the non DayZ versions

[Mantasisg 172]

Yes ! We want to run and run for hours for loot hide in bushes and get KOS - thats DayZ, modders will ruin it, server files already did plenty of harm ! I hate when those other guys has to get their good things !

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

21 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

Then why should I NOT mount my own server & shard WITHOUT modifying the DayZ SA (PC) game content ?

There's no reason for why you should do anything. If you don't want mods, don't use mods. You can also turn off auto-update of course, if you're so stubborn and don't want updates..

21 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

I can then run DayZ SA completely independently of BI. - And of Steam - <oh yes>.

You'll still need Steam to run your client and other players doing the same, or your server is going to feel lonely.

21 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

We could understand this to mean that BI are now at the point of giving away DayZ SA on PC.

This would be an end of life-cycle action, would it not?

How do you make this leap? DayZ isn't going to become free and BI isn't going to stop improving it. If you choose to isolate yourself, that's what you do.

21 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

I won't reply to further comments.

Plugging your ears and going "lalalalala" doesn't give your arguments any credit.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[OrLoK 16185]

6 hours ago, emuthreat said:

Yeah, sorry.  It was a loaded question.  One to which an answer still eludes us; and what I think @pilgrim* has been picking away at in his usual style. 

What exactly is DayZ Standalone supposed to be when it is finished?  Is it even supposed to be finished, and will that mean that it is finished--in the colloquial sense of the term?

I'm not trying to be cynical here.  It's just kinda weird lately with talk of beta not being feature complete, and releasing mod tools and server files before 1.0 is out. 

 

DAYZ's form will be what we have previously seen offered up in the SR's by the devs.

Then full support for a number of years.

That doesnt mean that there *wont* be anymore content.

Just the same as with Arma 3. It was released sans some content but that was added in soon after. You have to think along those lines.

To me, 1.0 and the additional proposed content does not mean "finished", as I understand it, as there will be tweaks and bug fixes along the way etc etc .

Again this doesnt mean there will not be extra content or previously undisclosed content.

This isn't a prison sentence where one the development time is up we all walk away. DAYZ is now one of BI's flagship titles. They're not daft and are not going to abandon it.

The only thing anyone has to realistically concern themselves about is their own expectation management.

I can understand some folk get "development fatigue" but if one is feeling that emotionally tied to the game I'd advise that chap/chapess to have a good long break, it is after all only a game.

As to server files being released before 1.0. Whats the issue there? Id like to se mod tools rolled out before full 1.0 too if possible. Again I cant see the issue as Id like moders and server hosts to be up to speed before the full release and ad campaigns etc.

Id love to understand why people think that serverfiles and mod tools are such a terribad thing?

[pilgrim* 3514]

14 hours ago, emuthreat said:

Is there one person, or a small group who have already decided what the final goal for DayZ 1.0 content and capabilities will be?

Yes. The content, capabilities, and support for  DayZ SA 1.0 on PC  are already decided.
Obviously, this is the only way a private enterprise can operate and hope to make a profit - clearly defined planning.

Commercial success of Arma 3 and DayZ allowed the company to grow (rapidly) to the current size of ~350 people, becoming "one of the largest independent game development companies in the world".  Currently the company is working on finishing its early access titles DayZ, Ylands and Vigor as well as the development of their proprietary game engine Enfusion. [March 2018]

*
350 staff:

We wander into work and say << Hey, what shall we do today?
- do you think there's a business plan lying around somewhere that might give us a clue, or shall we just - ya know - do what we feel?  >>   
<< By the way - does anyone know if we have a boss ? >>

* * *

..//.. – in between learning how to collaborate across projects using very different tech, or simply working out how to best get along with each other when we're hundreds of miles apart – we've experienced our fair share of growing pains - ...
..//..Our flagship titles (Arma, DayZ, Ylands) all use different technology. So, when we say 'slowly but surely', we really mean it: basic architecture that will shape the way we develop for years to come.
 ..//..- in the meantime, we intend to keep our focus on delivering existing projects – and keep releasing games. With that in mind, some of the new projects lined up in 2018 may not use Enfusion.
..//..other projects may differ a bit from what we've tried before, as we continue to experiment, learn, and even take some creative risks.
[Jay Crowe, Creative Director, Bohemia, March 28 2018]

*

<<Thanks to the progress we've made with our new Enfusion Engine, all Xbox players can enjoy the full set of features and content the PC 0.63 update offers.>>
[BI blog August 31 2018]

-  hope this clarifies everything.
   
    Anyone played Argo yet?

 

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by pilgrim*
?? seems BI has changed a lot since it launched DayZ

[sneakydude 480]

Finished game, is the same as saying solid base game with the main features. That's all people express as finished game.

[pilgrim* 3514]

On 10/13/2018 at 5:35 PM, Mantasisg said:

bicycles

    bicycles

Edited October 15, 2018 by pilgrim*
or perhaps ... not

[Private Evans 1303]

Obviously these here are just the first steps of making BI's tech ( engine) ready for the future and the first one was making their games (open world maps) run on consoles. If we take a closer look at for example world building we can clearly see how far enfusion engine ist still away from providing next gen tech. Having different biomes on the same map, underground structures, caves and tunnels, real snow, realistic rivers, lakes and waterways, destructable environment and very important  generating  proper outside lod terrains just to name a few things are still missing ( as far as we know). Not to speak about more sophisticated stuff like invisible loading screens ( container streaming) and cloud technology which will allow much bigger worldmaps/ game worlds in the future...

So like it or not everything right now may it be DayZ, Vigor or Argo...is mainly for testing and experimenting future tech....

[emuthreat 2837]

9 hours ago, OrLoK said:

Id love to understand why people think that serverfiles and mod tools are such a terribad thing?

I don't think it's a bad thing, just kind of unorthodox from my understanding.

As a reference point, the community servers who opted into Exp as soon as it was available have hit a low point after the initial excitement; this is due to the lack of content.
You get scores of people excited to play their favorite server on .63 tech, but after a couple weeks everyone has already gotten reacquainted and are already bored by standing around talking or going on the lame low challenge loot runs.
It's mostly a timing thing.  Imagine if movie theaters would run films that still needed to be edited and have DFX put into them.  People would leave thinking "why did they do that"

I don't necessarily think modding is a bad thing, and I'm sure some might come along that catch my interest.  I do however think it would be unfortunate and completely avoidable, if by the time all the post 1.0 content makes it in, that there are a dozen mods that have already done it.
If BI's intention is to make a successful game, in terms of the reception and server populations of the vanilla 1.0 version, modding the game ahead of release may very well undermine this.
There are still quite a few "purist" players who just want a good vanilla experience.  It would be kinda lame if 1.0 is not finished by the time that many mods have come and gone and ran their course.

So for me, it's not a question of good or bad, but just timing and reception.  I'm perfectly fine with DayZ being an R&D platform; it would just also be nice to have some concept of what the finished project for this leg of the journey might be.

@Pilgrim* Thanks for answering my rhetorical question.  And no, I haven't played Argo yet.  I think it's hidden somewhere in my steam library though;  I somehow got the idea that that was its intended purpose.

[OrLoK 16185]

but if I say to you.

"hey, my mate works for Jim Henson. here's a chance to see the new star wars but it's just the rushes."

do you take the opportunity to see something rare or wait until all the effects and soundtrack etc is in?

my mate did work for Jim Henson and I got to see things not usually reserved for the public.

but they were rough cuts and "flawed"

this is what ea is. it's never promoted itself as anything other.

tools being released early only helps the user base.

there is no logical issue against that

DAYZ isn't an experiment or a rnd platform it's a full game.

the fbi are not involved and there's no lizard based neocron subtext.

it's a game that the devs hope some will like.

I feel we frequently seek an ulterior motive where there is none.

no one is stealing from you, there's no agenda.

it's a game being developed but one which hopes to future proof itself to give us years of fun.

we know of other devs who push out games that buy into the zeitguist(?) but have no heart or soul.

they havnt latsted.

be cautious? yes. 

be constructively critical? yes.

be paranoid? no.

no one really knows what will happen but we do know how BI works. history has shown this.

a provider of great but occasionally flawed games.

but we know that with the success of the mod they've been able to invest in changes which benefit us all.

it's taken time but that, to me, is with waiting for.

we could have had a mod with loads of content but was hugely vulnerable to hacking and exploits.

is that really what you would prefer?

I think not.

dislike us mods, devs or community mangers, it doesn't matter we're still gonna deliver a sound platform.

not everyone will approve. but that's fine.

such is life

[Guy Smiley 534]

The release of the server files puts a sour taste in peoples mouths because it makes it appear that the devs want the modders to finish the game.  Do I agree with the release of the server files before the game has even hit beta?  Hell no but it is what it is

[pilgrim* 3514]

18 hours ago, emuthreat said:

@Pilgrim* Thanks for answering my rhetorical question

no sandwiches

 

In 14 months centered on 2014, DayZ sold  3 million copies.

We can safely predict that most of the PC copies that will ever be out there, have already been bought (- long ago).
Further content-development for DayZ (PC)  will not result in BI selling any significant number of copies of DayZ SA for PC, from here on.

It is unwise and irresponsible for a games designer/publisher to hope for an "amazing mod"  to appear, that will convince "thousands" or even "several hundreds" of Steam users to invest in Dayz SA (PC) in the future.

ArmA DayZ Mod -  WAS an amazing mod (it sold 300,000 copies of the ageing ArmA) - a miracle.

The "miraculous" revenue from one game concept - enabled BI to buy up 3 smaller studios, to spread, reorganise, triple in size, and to develop an new engine - and face the alignment, profitability, needs and function of it's new structure, & redefine its aims.

- no sane business can assume that a miracle will happen once every 5 years, instead of a "business plan".

In those few years, due to a single stroke of good fortune, Bi has gone from a small "single game" minority niche indie - committed to relying on and encouraging the loyalty of it's players -  to one of the largest  "multi-game" indies. For it's own survival,  in it's new changed form, it requires multi-game development  & bottom-line continuous profitability.  

If BI's other games (and e.g. Xbox/PlayStation versions) are profitable, while  BI's costs have tripled, it may finance a non-profit-making team to continue to support DayZ on PC.
This would depend on how secure it feels about it's future with regard to ongoing and pipelined projects. And how much it has changed as it moves further from the original client base.

Technically : BI's in-house development-ware  is at present still PC-oriented and partly-adapted as the foundation of BI's cross platform development structure. [this is my reading of the BI Creative Director's 2018 quote]   The introduction of "basebuilding" via this (in flux) existing in-house ware will certainly be necessary  - <and we have been told so> -  to incorporate basebuilding into the Xbox/PlayStation platforms, which are indisputably today's revenue targets for DayZ SA.

However, DayZ SA (PC) - the game that 5 years ago was voted "the 59th best PC game ever"  - is now past the point where it will  create income.

So - Today, BI cannot cover a fraction of it's current running costs by selling copies of DayZ SA for PC.
(I offended folk by calling this the PC game's  "end of life-cycle" - but  to underline the point,  there are still many die-hard PC DayZ players who ALREADY have copies.. simply, they are NOT a market).

All the copies of DayZ SA (PC) that will ever be sold, have already been sold (bar a handful of dozens).
Do not expect a wave of NEW Steam PC players to buy DZ SA,  either to play DayZ PC vanilla, or to play PC mods.

After EA termination, do not <expect> new content from BI.

*
- I hugely  enjoyed DayZ Mod, and was happy to pay out for DayZ SA  simply as payback.  I have played 1500 hours on DayZ SA (PC) and it was all GOOD. I had my value out of the game, many times over.

However, my considered opinion is that - apart from basebuilding, which BI considered vital for the console market, plus a few more weapon types - do NOT expect  anything in the future  that you have not already seen on PC versions from BI.
Which is to say, the content of 0.62-0.63 + base implementation, seem to me to be effectively ("definitively") the terminus.    
 
 

Edited October 15, 2018 by pilgrim*

[OrLoK 16185]

2 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

The release of the server files puts a sour taste in peoples mouths because it makes it appear that the devs want the modders to finish the game.  Do I agree with the release of the server files before the game has even hit beta?  Hell no but it is what it is

who's ever said this?

it's a huge conclusional leap.

I've only ever seen it pushed as fact by those who are not fond of us.

it's simply not correct in any shape or form.

[FunkInYourTrunk 354]

is anyone else taken back by the fact that a thread whining (yes whining) about timelines and impatience, has 95 replies and almost 2k views yet the last status report (information of actual significance) has 12 replies and 800ish views?  bitching and moaning (pardon my language) doesnt get anything done any faster.  the game will get finished, and it will happen when it happens.  grab a tissue, whipe ur eyes and blow your nose and then chill.  conversations like these do not promote accountability, they do not speed things up, in fact i would say they do nothing but spread salt.  just my 2 cents, but i still have faith that the devs will release an amazing feature complete game and if it take 23 more years to do it, im still going to be patiently waiting.

[TDsS 7]

37 minutes ago, FunkInYourTrunk said:

is anyone else taken back by the fact that a thread whining (yes whining) about timelines and impatience, has 95 replies and almost 2k views yet the last status report (information of actual significance) has 12 replies and 800ish views?  bitching and moaning (pardon my language) doesnt get anything done any faster.  the game will get finished, and it will happen when it happens.  grab a tissue, whipe ur eyes and blow your nose and then chill.  conversations like these do not promote accountability, they do not speed things up, in fact i would say they do nothing but spread salt.  just my 2 cents, but i still have faith that the devs will release an amazing feature complete game and if it take 23 more years to do it, im still going to be patiently waiting.

Last SR was very vague and there wasnt much to discuss.

Its forum, every discussion doesnt need to promote accountabilty or speed up the development lol.

I appreciate any discussion here that gets people from both sides speaking. The fact that even the most passionate fans are expressing their concerns in this thread shows that its not pointless, even if OP was whining.

Bombarding every thread with classic replies like "stop whining" and "it will be done when its done" is pointless.

Edited October 15, 2018 by TDsS

[Private Evans 1303]

2 hours ago, FunkInYourTrunk said:

is anyone else taken back by the fact that a thread whining (yes whining) about timelines and impatience, has 95 replies and almost 2k views yet the last status report (information of actual significance) has 12 replies and 800ish views? 

First of all we are not either whining nor flaming the devs, but we are discussing different aspects of the development of this game, for what this place here, the forums, seems to me the right place. I also think it is absolutely important that the devs do not only read the usual fanboy posts after releasing another boring Status Report full of the same blablabla. You are asking why so many threads are dead...because we do not get proper infos about what really is going on and no one of the devs is really taking part in any discussion or answering serious questions. They showed us and told us so many things, that nobody cares anymore what they are writing in their reports. I do not need to see stuff that probably will be released in two years or maybe even not at all....precise object placing...overgrown buildings...small object physics, contaminated zones....  There are Status Reports and there is Trello and twitter and a thread for stable, for exp., for stress tests etc This sounds much but indeed the whole huge bubble is empty....simple answers would do it much better and maybe here and there a dev reacting on different topics.

Combining this with the very slow progresss, missing content and such things like releasing server files and maybe modding before we see 1.0 , leaves even  longtime fans worried and angry which we try to express and discuss here in a most of the time adult way....

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Private Evans

[OrLoK 16185]

what answers have not been addressed?