With BETA comes modding

[Yuval 221]

I am a long time ArmA modder. Ever since I've put my hands on RV games I always tilted towards the modding scene. One of the shortest yet most impactful points I've heard in the GameStar interview was "With BETA comes modding".

I don't know how long is it until BETA hits and it doesn't really matter to me right now. What I do wish to know is as much information as the devs can share about it.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

There's a couple important things we already know about modding. (Off the top of my head.)

https://dayz.com/blog/status-report-22-apr-15 - http://i.imgur.com/kZbq4oll.png
The scripting language is called EnScript, and it looks a lot like C++.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZm7YqryQZo 0:33 - 2:15
That video shows how the loot economy can be changed on a server.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[Yuval 221]

4 hours ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

There's a couple important things we already know about modding. (Off the top of my head.)

https://dayz.com/blog/status-report-22-apr-15 - http://i.imgur.com/kZbq4oll.png
The scripting language is called EnScript, and it looks a lot like C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZm7YqryQZo 0:33 - 2:15
That video shows how the loot economy can be changed on a server.

 

Yeah I have previously seen those as I follow every possible social platform information could come from. Although I thank you for reintroducing these pieces of information and enlighting us again!

EnScript looks identical to C++ (not C, haha as functions are called from objects, which means there are classes).
I wonder what exactly is different in EnScript from C++. The only difference I see, is that no pointers and memory handling is present. (Which might be wrong since the code snippet is very small).
If there is no memory handling and pointers, if memory is handled by the compiler all alone I'd assume it is to preserve the "easy to learn" attribute you could associate with SQF.
Real Virtuality (and so is EnFusion I suppose) is written in C++, meaning modders will possibly have way more functions and exposed features than SQF (Like handling weapon attachments in ArmA 3).

As for the loot Economy, I hope it is possible to get completely rid of that. Not to be all negative, I believe DayZ's loot system is the most advanced out there for ArmA games - but I do know modders (just as I do) appreciate the ability to build our own systems for handling loot distribution. Since I can already assume the CLE is hardcoded into the engine (which I hope I'm wrong), I atleast expect a switch to turn off anything related to the loot economy.

An additional observation I made in the video you've linked, is that the Zone Generation tool has a much wider functionality than discussed in the video. As you can see in the top left corner there are alot of layers.
These layers represent a big collection of areas. As you can see layers prefixed with "Spawning-" seem to be auto-generated by the loot definitions. But in addition there are layers named "tex_CR*" which are layers that represent the ground texture types. These are auto-generated by the map definitions. These cannot possibly be related to loot spawning since it hasn't (or shouldn't have logically) any affect on loot. These might be related to zombie spawning but that's an ugly guess.

Anyway this is what I could analyze for these small pieces of data.

What mostly interests me are the changes done to the modelling and terrain editing side. I know for sure that all the building models now include vertexes for loot positions (mod-wisely was done by defining offsets in config). Also, the whole animation part was scratched and is done entirely different.

Terrains now have new definitions regarding zombie navigation (so called navmesh files).

Edited August 25, 2017 by Yuval

[kopo79 426]

So,i have searched some new games and arma 3 desolation redux has popped our all the time....i think that they have all what standalone has and base building....so whats the difference?

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

Whoops, my bad, I didn't actually read through the script again since I have many times before, just forgot it was C++ not C.

Also, disabling CLE should be as easy as removing all loot regions. No regions, nowhere to spawn things in.. or just set everything to 0. Zombie spawning is also handled in regions now, so the tool shown in the video can in fact be used to define where zombies can spawn. (Don't quote me on that since I can't recall a source, but I am 98% confident.)

Also, the vertex use for loot position is no longer a thing. See: https://www.dayz.com/blog/status-report-16-may-2017

Quote

Instead of exact points, the new loot placement uses ranges. Range simply defines a circular area within which item can be spawned. During placement of these ranges, they are checked against each other and building itself in real time. This approach avoids any clipping and collisions of items during spawning. Placement output is stored as XML directly in the mission folder, so it's very convenient for modding, it also can be loaded and edited.

The best part of this new system is that it's completely defined and visualized directly in game, from free-fly camera. Additionally, everything is real time, which (coupled with independence from addons) cuts down the time required for setup dramatically.

After introduction of this new system, we managed to get from more than 1.000.000 spawn points (mind that was after massive reduction for 0.61 version from 4.000.000+ spawn points) to current ~130.000 used, and at the end, what matters the most is the increased server performance.

Navmesh is also something that was implemented soon after the Early Access release. Before it was implemented, zombies literally ran through all objects, including the walls and floors of buildings. Nothing existed in their eyes, so they wouldn't even attempt to avoid things.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[IMT 3190]

5 minutes ago, kopo79 said:

So,i have searched some new games and arma 3 desolation redux has popped our all the time....i think that they have all what standalone has and base building....so whats the difference?

It is based on the Arma 3 engine, which was built to be for a military simulation game, not a zombie survival apocalypse simulator.

2 minutes ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

Whoops, my bad, I didn't actually read through the script again since I have many times before, just forgot it was C++ not C. However, many client-side scripts appear to be written in C.

Also, disabling CLE should be as easy as removing all loot regions. No regions, nowhere to spawn things in.. or just set everything to 0. Zombie spawning is also handled in regions now, so the tool shown in the video can in fact be used to define where zombies can spawn. (Don't quote me on that since I can't recall a source, but I am 98% confident.)

Also, the vertex use for loot position is no longer a thing. See: https://www.dayz.com/blog/status-report-16-may-2017

Navmesh is also something that was implemented soon after the Early Access release. Before it was implemented, zombies literally ran through all objects, including the walls and floors of buildings. Nothing existed in their eyes, so they wouldn't even attempt to avoid things.

Well, the only place were they weren't allowed in the beginning was upstairs. Apparently they couldn't climb stairs in the beginning.

[Yuval 221]

I am hoping for the same modding accessibility ArmA has. I would like to take out the zombies module, and I am not so sure about the loot economy since it is very dynamic (I guess it depends on how much can the loot economy module be accessed and rewritten).

One of the single features DayZ was superior from all other ArmA games since Day 1 was the weapon attachments system and the inventory as a whole. I would (since I also mess with alot GUI stuff, even at my workplace) love to be able to change and redo some of the aspects of the inventory system. The attachments system is awesome, but could be even better (Take notes from Escape From Tarkov). I have managed to *almost* implement a completely new inventory system in ArmA 3. But sadly ArmA 3 does not support weapon attachment handling and container handling outside the actual player (unit). Sadly for this piece of module to work I had to virtualize the whole aspects of loot (all done in SQF mind you) which is something I am still working on today. The inventory is one of the most important aspects of a survival game, and I hope the modability of it will prove that point out.

[IMT 3190]

5 hours ago, Yuval said:

I am hoping for the same modding accessibility ArmA has. I would like to take out the zombies module, and I am not so sure about the loot economy since it is very dynamic (I guess it depends on how much can the loot economy module be accessed and rewritten).

One of the single features DayZ was superior from all other ArmA games since Day 1 was the weapon attachments system and the inventory as a whole. I would (since I also mess with alot GUI stuff, even at my workplace) love to be able to change and redo some of the aspects of the inventory system. The attachments system is awesome, but could be even better (Take notes from Escape From Tarkov). I have managed to *almost* implement a completely new inventory system in ArmA 3. But sadly ArmA 3 does not support weapon attachment handling and container handling outside the actual player (unit). Sadly for this piece of module to work I had to virtualize the whole aspects of loot (all done in SQF mind you) which is something I am still working on today. The inventory is one of the most important aspects of a survival game, and I hope the modability of it will prove that point out.

I would love the attachments like Tarkov, be it a mod or vanilla. It's so complex that you either need to research some info online or just by trial and error. Both DayZ and Tarkov do get their things right with realism. I was talking yesterday to Emuthreat about the manual bolting and the animation for loading a magazine which is coming up in 0.63. It's something I believe no other games have done yet and these small things make DayZ so awesome and realistic.

I never modded for Arma 2 but I do know that their going to give us the tools they use as well. In fact, there is already an entire documentation including all the classes, attributes, methods, etc. Not even that, if you know where to look you can see all/a lot of the scripts already written in Enfusion.

Edited August 26, 2017 by IMT

[Irish. 4886]

I would love to create single player missions, using the same Arma modding/editing tech as much as possible, like I did for A3: http://steamcommunity.com/id/lrishjake/myworkshopfiles/?appid=107410

I know, that my previously made missions, were unique and had a flavor all their own.. I hope I can one day bring some content like that for dayz. :)

Edited August 26, 2017 by Irish.

[Yuval 221]

Same. I assume there won't be player AI which is bad, but hey what do we know. One more challenge would be porting content, like maps.

I know that in earlier builds, some building models had their root position changed from their A2 counterpart (For example, the pub building from A2) so if you port a terrain from A2 certain buildings will be placed away from their original position. These smaller problems will be a headache to solve.

Also, since DayZ is based on A2 (ToH) - Porting A3 terrains can be a problem since there are many new config entries and features (new roads, new wrp format (I think). Also A3 has a new p3d file format. All these things cause problems.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Yuval

[chambersenator 106]

I really hope that we see a SA Modding subcategory on this forum soon - hopefully before the devs open the doors to modding. We really could use a dedicated place for those interested in modding SA to be able to collaborate, share ideas, resources, and tips. 

I brought this up back in April, but it only received one comment. 

Right now we have no dedicated place to talk about the subject. We need one here.

There are things we can do now to get prepared for SA mods that don't require official announcements or releases of standards and tools. When those things are released, people with any level of modding experience are going to be raiding ArmA assets and code like it's a supermarket's bread and milk aisle before a blizzard.


We need to have a place where at least a few experienced ArmA modders can tell them "These models have problems, use these instead." or "This is the proper way that you get permission to use someone else's stuff in your mod," or "That SQF you found is 8 years old, and barely worked back then. Someone made a much better version 3 years ago over here, so if you're going to base your own EnScript idea on something, use that."  Let's have separate rooms for the "idea people," the "eager but willing to learn" people, the "I can model like a madman but can't code to save my life" people, and the experienced ArmA people, but let's have all the rooms in the same house. 

It also makes sense to have the 'home' of SA modding discussions here, rather than scattered about on other sites that focus on ArmA. While my own skills over the years haven't progressed further than 'meddling about,' I can't be the only one who was often frustrated when searching for information to find half a dozen possible answers spread over 5 years that was a confusing mix of conflicting and/or deprecated solutions that only 'kind of' answered your question, and relied on another script that ended up breaking what you were trying to do in the first place. Having a pre-existing sub-forum beforehand can at least help centralize the conversation and resources before someone creates it on another site.

There is an opportunity here to look at how modding was handled by the community in the past 10+ years with a critical but fair eye and see what worked and what can be improved. BI and the devs will handle their end of things, but for us, with new tools, new code, and a new engine, let's have whatever our mistakes are to be new too, rather than the old ones.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

On 8/26/2017 at 10:46 AM, Yuval said:

I am hoping for the same modding accessibility ArmA has. I would like to take out the zombies module, and I am not so sure about the loot economy since it is very dynamic (I guess it depends on how much can the loot economy module be accessed and rewritten).

Here's some more personal speculation/conjectures from me..

First off, I'm referring to this: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/169133158?t=08h15m50s (15 seconds)

There are lots of scripts in the client files which are being used (some that aren't), so what Eugen says is demonstrably true. The scripts are identical to C++ (and use .c as an extension) with the exception of not having #includes (presumably because scripts are restricted to the interpreter). For further proof, it's been said that stones will spawn physically on the ground in 0.63 rather than only found in the "gravel textures," but the script for stone generation already exists, so this is a very recent addition. _{(Spoiler: 5 stones around each player, 60 meters in front of the player and with 15 meter radius)} 

This would mean, we really will have access to the majority of the game, like in Take On Mars. Also, one educated guess I would make is that DayZ will use the Workbench editor from ToM. There are a couple references to it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[Mantasisg 172]

So excited about this :)  Current DayZ is so much off my taste, if it is not going to improve, then it is all about modding from there. I hope modding will take immersion into account and will not introduce ridiculous content, also quality over quantity all the time !

Big hopes for gameplay changes. Would love various features comming from modding to improve gameplay, first of all more interactions ! It could even be a smaller map, or just a few points of interest in the map.... countless possibilities

Basebuilding is comming, to my mind it will not make any sense in default DayZ. I hope for "clans" mod or something like that, where players would spawn in opposite clans and should build theyr main bases, and play capture the flag or something.....

I'd hope for such things from default DayZ, but the struggle is too big, I guess.

But gotta keep expectations low, in order not to get hit in the head if something is not going to be too great immediately. Whats immediatelly ? I guess whole 2018.

[Yuval 221]

I truly hope we get some dev response here.

[klesh 2423]

As much as I like modding in other games, I really wish this wasn't going to be a thing for DayZ.  The game is the game; play it.  This will only serve to spread the playerbase thinly across everyone's own personal idea of what the game should be.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

4 hours ago, klesh said:

As much as I like modding in other games, I really wish this wasn't going to be a thing for DayZ.  The game is the game; play it.  This will only serve to spread the playerbase thinly across everyone's own personal idea of what the game should be.

Modding only adds to the longevity of a game, just look at what happened to ARMA 2. DayZ's roots are with modding and Bohemia already has lots of experience enabling that, so there really isn't a reason against modding. The spreading of the playerbase obviously hasn't hurt ARMA.

[klesh 2423]

I disagree. DayZ isn't Arma.  The original DayZ mod was abandoned for all those cheesy variation mods with skyhigh bases, safezones and locked personal gear collections.  Those weren't in the spirit of the original mod whatsoever, yet people left the real mod in droves to cheese out on those.  I feel like the same thing will happen with DayZ SA.  

[Yuval 221]

59 minutes ago, klesh said:

I disagree. DayZ isn't Arma.  The original DayZ mod was abandoned for all those cheesy variation mods with skyhigh bases, safezones and locked personal gear collections.  Those weren't in the spirit of the original mod whatsoever, yet people left the real mod in droves to cheese out on those.  I feel like the same thing will happen with DayZ SA.  

But that was the bad part of modding. The problem was people were ignorant enough to navigate themselves to quality content. Your comment is invalid for 95% of what modding actually is.

[Gobbokirk 546]

If it wasn't for modding none of us would even be here right now.

Who knows what could spring from modding here, could be the basis for another new genre for all we know.

Sure it will split up people to a degree, but won't make the regular servers magically empty.

[sneakydude 480]

18 hours ago, klesh said:

I disagree. DayZ isn't Arma.  The original DayZ mod was abandoned for all those cheesy variation mods with skyhigh bases, safezones and locked personal gear collections.  Those weren't in the spirit of the original mod whatsoever, yet people left the real mod in droves to cheese out on those.  I feel like the same thing will happen with DayZ SA.  

Well if you get bored after 2000 hrs game play of searching sheds and someone comes out with a version on their own server that completely redoes the game to their liking and others appear to like it and change what does it matter? not everyone is going to keep playing the same thing over and over for 5 yrs.

 

This is how dayz was created from a war game... do we say that dayz was a failure? BI has made it very clear, they want to continue down this path. You knew this before 2012, arma had modding abilities.

[klesh 2423]

I'm not against modding fellas, I'm against it in this game.  I want us all together playing the same awesome DayZ experience.  I've got 2 friends that are chomping at the bit to make their own wildly different version of what "their" DayZ experience will be.  One wants is so hard that you'll be dead in 10 minutes if you dont find a winter coat... that's not DayZ.  Another wants all the streetlights turned on, thats not DayZ either. More power to them, but I'll be on vanilla servers, to be sure. 

 

But hey, I'm just voicing my opinion, its not like my magic crystal ball predictions are going to change the future of whats already decided.

[Mantasisg 172]

Spreading DayZ is quite a relative thing, because it will probably never allow more than 100 players per serverm so there is not that much to spread, especially if userbase will keep decreasing in total.

Modding is good way how to patch the game which is missing content and features ( if they are moddable). 

But if DayZ will someday eventually become a game which it should have been all the time (pre 0.6 gameplay, with post 0.6 technology) then modding would be very little needed. When vanila content is good there usually are a lot of mods too, but they can not compete with numbers of players playing vanila content.....

[Yuval 221]

1 hour ago, klesh said:

I want us all together playing the same awesome DayZ experience.

Who's us? I haven't touched the standalone since patch 0.55.

It is borderline boring and not fun for me. DayZ SA's vision is not something I ever liked. And thousands feel like me, way more than the active playerbase. People are not here for the technology. The 0.60 update that increased FPS to 60 didn't bring any new players back. The visual upgrade didn't bring anything too. I doubt new animations and base building will. It's not about the content. It's about the vision. It has always been that way. You have to seperate what a game means and what an engine means.

DayZ is running on a good engine many people are interested in taking advantage of. But the game itself is something that had its peak at 2013. Your definition of "all" is not nearly the same as Bohemia. ArmA 3 still takes DayZ's playerbase to school, and not because the vanilla experience is amazing.

BIS had always been a platform for modding. The platforms BIS offer are not a fixed game with a set of rules, but an adjustable experience. This is how BIS had been and why it has been so successful in the past few years. This "game" is not meant to be played the devs have shaped it. It never has. DayZ by its root is not a fixed game.

Edit: In continuation to my reply, I do not think the vanilla experience is bad. In my point of view it is just another way of playing the game. Certain people like it, others do not. That is how it had always been. I guarantee you, the moment mods are released, not only the playerbase will grow but you will also use mods. Why? Because that is how modding have been. I do not want to bash on DayZ Dev team or BIS in general. But it is a common gig in the ArmA communities that vanilla tools by BIS are not near the quality of community made tools. You can ask yourself how is that even possible, but it is true I assure you. Anywhore, what I mean to say is that you need to look at this topic in a wider perspective, out of "the way I like is how it is for everybody" perspective. It isn't. The same way I accept what you like to play, I expect you do the same and be open minded.

Let me tell you a secret, about a year ago I was banned from the forums for posting a topic with testings I have done with the older engine (pre-Enfusion) where I loaded legendary maps from the ArmA 2 DayZ days (Taviana, Panthera, etc..). I was banned straight away by the moderators for breaking rules or something. I had never thought of being active here again although I have calmed.

Taking this story into account, imagine what this forum actually represents. A fracture of potential playerbase. Over 90 percents of the players who could be playing this game right now are away from the game and from this forum. Why you ask? Just because of such anti-modding behaviour.

I remember the time people said PlayerUnknown's Battelground was a failing DayZ copycat. I'll have you know that besides PUBG had tripled the copies sold from DayZ. The origins of that game, began as a mod for ArmA 2 DayZ (later moved to ArmA 3 and then H1Z1). That's right! ArmA 2 Battle Royale mod - I remember playing it to this day (was a great mod though).

So yeah, you should be open minded for everything.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Yuval

[--Rusty-- 8]

Hey new to this forum and also to standalone but not towards gaming and modding in general,
Totally agree with everything @Yuval just mentioned..
I can understand that that alot of folk may see modding in a sense of it would bring so more crap with quantity over quality which is the case for so many modable games these days and probably always will be... because everyone has there own opinion and any content creator should always be proud of the work they put into there stuff (but also always take on constructive critz and strive for better)

But having the game moddable or a workshop wouldnt exactly mean everything made/modded would be added in game ovc, but then that itself brings up the scenario of how the devs take that into account.. maybe something like a dev/community voting system where content being added into the vanila game but then that also (Could) create another scinario of micro transactions ect.. (do folk want to go there)?.. or even keeping that for custom servers?...

from my own opinion, I feel any game that has modding support (and from a buisness perspective) always become popular and last longer for the simple fact that, folk love to create!.. and what better feeling for any modder to have there stuff hand picked by devs or loved by many to be added into the game hell may even open up opportunitys for modders (caugh...Player unknown..caugh)

with all that said.. the devs on standalone seem to have been making/showing alot more progress with the standalone game recently and from ground up (+ still in WIP) .. im looking foward to seeing progress and what will become..

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

On 9/8/2017 at 0:39 AM, klesh said:

I disagree. DayZ isn't Arma.  The original DayZ mod was abandoned for all those cheesy variation mods with skyhigh bases, safezones and locked personal gear collections.  Those weren't in the spirit of the original mod whatsoever, yet people left the real mod in droves to cheese out on those.  I feel like the same thing will happen with DayZ SA.  

Here's some things I've said back in June on the Steam forums, and I still fully stand by them (though some context is missing):

Quote

Even if the addition of modding means that the vanilla servers will die, if the player count gets a net positive, it's a worthwhile loss for DayZ as a whole. And as pointed out earlier, even if the vanilla content isn't used as-is, the systems and assets can be re-used or expanded on by mods to create something new.

Quote

If you're afraid that no one will play the vanilla game over mods, what does that say about your opinion on the game?

But just to reiterate -- even if vanilla completely dies (literally not even one full ever), but the modded servers are thriving, DayZ is still successful as a platform to those mods and it does not hurt anyone besides those who'd like to play the original game. (Which at that point would be a small fraction of the playerbase and it is NOT worth kicking out mods to please the few.)

Like, seriously. If it really was true that the vast majority of the people who play currently are only doing so because they have no other option -- I think they are playing for the completely wrong reasons and will not stick around for as long as they might if they had the option to play with mods.

It's the last paragraph that I should bold and underline. The people who would only play the easy-action mods will not contribute to the playerbase at all in the long run without mods. DayZ is a niche game, just like ARMA. A lot of the people who play "ARMA" are not playing it because it's a military sim.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Dancing.Russian.Man