Status Report, RE: soft skills

[Sqeezorz 839]

12 hours ago, emuthreat said:

..I think improvement of specific actions, based on actually practicing that action numerous times, would be a reasonable and natural progression of character skill growth.  The concept of improving skills through practice doesn't seem too far-fetched, or abusable to me, as long as there were hourly caps on certain actions.

Let's say that every time you cut a bush with a knife, you start out getting one stick, and causing the same amount of wear to the knife.  After cutting 20 bushes with a knife, you can start getting two sticks, and the same amount of wear to the knife.  After cutting 40 bushes, your knife starts taking less wear, and you still get two sticks.  After cutting 60 bushes, you get 3 sticks, and the knife still takes less wear.  It would destroy at least two or three knives to complete this process, requiring you to expend resources that had to be looted in the game, and the time to do it all.  Sure, a freshspawn could spend their first hour of gameplay buffing this stick mechanic, looting around town for a half-dozen damaged steaknives, or searching stones to craft the four improvised knives that it would take to buff just this one skill.  So they would have wasted a whole hour, and a few knives, to buff just one of dozens of possible actions, and  then starve to death because they neglected to find food while grinding away at cutting bushes for sticks.

Repeat this same process for sharpening sticks, starting out with high wear on the knife, and a chance to fail; first losing the chance for failure upon light practice, then reduced knife wear on moderate practice, and finally gaining the speed to sharpen a whole stack of sticks in one action cycle.

 

That with a temporal cap of the skills would make absolutely sense. Or a mixture of coarse / fine to increase his abilities. This would really make sense and would represent a "grinding" as no solution. In the end, Devs is certainly the char that makes a lot of different actions in his survival also has a benefit. On the other hand, it is supposed to minimize a random KoS. Let us sew as an example. Who has never sewn as a freshspawn yet can repair a sewing-kit a jacket only from badly-damaged to damaged. A killing of another player with a pristine jacket will not harm the player because the jacket is destroyed, but maybe this player with the pristine jacket is a master in sewing and can repair the fresh character of Char's clothing. We all do not know in what direction the Devs want to play the game, but I always remember the words of @Hicks: "you should think carefully about what you use a cartridge in the weapon". In the end, it is supposed to make a longer survival sense ... and this not in the form of endless repetitions just to be good.

ADD: The idea with the sticks sharpen ... who has no experience will not be able to make everything Pristine arrows from the beginning ... of 10 sharped arrows are perhaps only 2 pristine 2 worn 4 damaged / badly damaged and 2 ruinded. With exercise you get 10 sharped sticks on 9 pristine and 1 worn. It should be rewarded if you mavht things and not just run through the area.

But let's see what the Devs are doing. It's still not final what is done.

[blackberrygoo 1416]

Honestly I don't see grinding being an issue in this game ; if people wanna spend their time doing that let them do so (as long as grinding up soft skills isn't too easy). I don't know if I like how they have made the new system though, what I want to see is people spending hours on fixing cars to finally become a reliable mechanic , one that's needed to fix a car in less than ten minutes (as opposed to someone without mechanic soft skills in which it could take hours to replace an engine or what not).

This game needs soft skills , we need to make it work but we can't be too hung up on certain things like grinding abuse , this games end game isn't about being the best mechanic , it helps but it isn't the end game so my point is the grinding abuse (if there is much) won't hurt the game in such a drastic way that people think it might (IMO).

Edited December 28, 2016 by blackberrygoo

[emuthreat 2837]

In my opinion, the entire concept of soft skills meant is to discourage players from so easily throwing away a character's life, by adding tangible value to the experience of that character's life.
To really flesh-out a meaningful skill system, everything but weapon sway, reload speed, driving vehicles, and melee, should have some element of progressive and permanent (until death) character growth attached.

The benefits of improved character skills should be significant enough for people to want to pursue improvement, useful enough to create real value attached to the character, and take a fair amount of time to accomplish.

This proposed polar separation of fine and rough skilled actions appears to only hit one of these points, the time sink.

I would hate for it to end up with players committing suicide because they have become too far specialized in fine skills, and want to start with a clean state, because that is somehow better than both of the end results of this "either-or" skill system.

[Coheed_IV 381]

 

1 hour ago, emuthreat said:

To really flesh-out a meaningful skill system, everything but weapon sway, reload speed, driving vehicles, and melee, should have some element of progressive and permanent (until death) character growth attached.

DayZ was a skill based game. What they need to avoid is cheap imitation of skill, which games that want parity have implemented and ruined competitive emergent gameplay. 

DayZ mod was skill based because it was built on ArmA and VBS.  The idea of DayZ will die if they can't allow players to become skillfull at the game. Not become skilled through the game systems, this is bullshit. 

You don't pickup ArmA and get good because you spam or have time. It's all about the keyboard mouse and your mind. It takes creativity, experimenting, patience, and practice.  Player skill should be defined through balanced and difficult systems.

The skill system they are now implying has balance. If your rough is high, you don't make a quick hand drill, you are forced to carry matches. If you can't skin well, you can't do it with a stone knife (1slot) you carry a knife (2slots). You are forced to carry the alternative to counter your lack of ability. 

The game has to decide how to define "skill". I think that's BI's talent. I don't know a game better than ArmA that allows for the player to become skillful. They have already cut out the simulation of VBS into the Enfusion, they just have to instill the player character with the flexibility for us to be skillfull at using it. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Coheed_IV

[emuthreat 2837]

I get where you are coming from with the player's own learned skill, independent from their in-game character.  But this is not discussing that.  I eagerly await the day when they add more, and more meaningful activities to DayZ, in the form of advanced crafting and foraging, possibly advanced medical actions.

The introduction of the idea of soft skills was to add importance to the survival of each and every character, based on the learned experiences of that toon in the game, by imparting a significant loss onto the death of a character.

This forced dichotomy of specialization does not seem capable of achieving that goal, based in part on the oversimplification of what defines a soft skill, learned by the avatar through surviving long enough to become well-practiced. 

[Sqeezorz 839]

The danger that I see in the rough / fine system is like with classic MMO's the wrong decisions in the "skill-tree". This will make the first valuable char into garbage. The difficulty will be to create a system that makes life worthwhile. This means, however, that the environment must also be hostile to life and this in sight is not to other players, in terms of your life can be your life insurance. In my opinion, a soft-skill-system makes sense.

[sneakydude 480]

Losing skills after death? do i smell combat logging has won?

[emuthreat 2837]

3 hours ago, sneakydude said:

Losing skills after death? do i smell combat logging has won?

Combat logging will always be a thing that people with no honor will do.  No use avoiding game elements because of cowardice of the meek.  Had a guy combat log just today, after he told @Thurman Merman his name, and it just happened to be the same one that KOS'd BioHaze the other day.

The experimental servers have been super low pop lately, so besides ruining all the vehicles on the map, we have been feuding with the other locals.

Maybe @Hicks_206 (DayZ) Should add a new machine gun to the Experimental Branch so people will actually play it.  For now they seem preoccupied with stockpiling loot that will most likely be wiped when the vehicle patch goes stable.  Haven't had any more that 15 people on SC 0-2 at any one time, so far.

[Coheed_IV 381]

9 hours ago, sneakydude said:

Losing skills after death? 

Why would it be a question? You wouldn't actually want to keep them?

[sneakydude 480]

On 12/29/2016 at 11:01 AM, Coheed_IV said:

Why would it be a question? You wouldn't actually want to keep them?

Well clearly i expect more combat logging if you lose your skills after death. It is rather soon to even know what skill bases you get.

Who would want to lose skills, from a group of people that run by. So i expect the easy way out is to just combat log, and go to another server.

Sadly this will happen, to avoid a death +skills you acquired.

[emuthreat 2837]

40 minutes ago, sneakydude said:

Sadly this will happen, to avoid a death +skills you acquired.

The same types of players will always log to keep their progress, be it gear, position on the map, or whatever soft skills turn out to be.

i could make a similar argument that the SAW shouldn't be added to the game, because people with that gun will combat log to avoid losing it.

[sneakydude 480]

5 hours ago, emuthreat said:

The same types of players will always log to keep their progress, be it gear, position on the map, or whatever soft skills turn out to be.

i could make a similar argument that the SAW shouldn't be added to the game, because people with that gun will combat log to avoid losing it.

Yup, i truly believe this maybe the case. However makes it more interesting to snipe those players out now :)

[sneakydude 480]

@emuthreat

Actually, i thought of something just now emu. If in combat, a small symbol pops up with two swords that locks you into battle for 2-5 minutes. So if that person tries to log off they can not.

Meaning that if a shot whizzes by you, puts you into combat or using a weapon. This way it might slow down the ability to hit esc, and your character logs off.

I dunno just an idea. So you would have to bail out of that area, hide for a few minutes to avoid conflict then your safely out of the harms way to log off.

[Mean Gun Morris 102]

On 01/01/2017 at 0:11 PM, sneakydude said:

@emuthreat

Actually, i thought of something just now emu. If in combat, a small symbol pops up with two swords that locks you into battle for 2-5 minutes. So if that person tries to log off they can not.

Meaning that if a shot whizzes by you, puts you into combat or using a weapon. This way it might slow down the ability to hit esc, and your character logs off.

I dunno just an idea. So you would have to bail out of that area, hide for a few minutes to avoid conflict then your safely out of the harms way to log off.

This is exactly what exile mod for arma3 does, exactly. Even down to the 2 sword symbol. 

[p4triot 207]

On 1/1/2017 at 2:41 AM, sneakydude said:

@emuthreat

Actually, i thought of something just now emu. If in combat, a small symbol pops up with two swords that locks you into battle for 2-5 minutes. So if that person tries to log off they can not.

Meaning that if a shot whizzes by you, puts you into combat or using a weapon. This way it might slow down the ability to hit esc, and your character logs off.

I dunno just an idea. So you would have to bail out of that area, hide for a few minutes to avoid conflict then your safely out of the harms way to log off.

Day Z Mod was actually like that.

[sneakydude 480]

21 hours ago, Mean Gun Morris said:

This is exactly what exile mod for arma3 does, exactly. Even down to the 2 sword symbol. 

Yup, why i mentioned it.

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

On 26/12/2016 at 9:05 PM, BobbyDean said:

I completely agree with you.  I had hoped for a system which just rewarded you xp for how long you stayed alive and then you could allocate points into whatever area you wanted.  This sort of approach would remove "grinding" because you just gain xp for staying alive - not for performing specific actions.  People could say you could abuse this sort of time-based xp system, but the game doesn't let you just "sit around".  You have to eat, drink, maintain your temperature, stay dry, warm, etc - so you can't just sit around and earn xp.   In my book if your character has managed to stay alive for 200 hours - by gosh they've earned the xp.

Sigh- very disappointed as well with the system they announced.

I'm definitely against an xp system. I think doing activities in a goal-directed fashion should make you better at them (an authentic approach to motor skill learning).

Other possible means of deterring a grinding system that don't introduce a game system feel include:

1) Diminishing returns over the long term - early phases of practice get you more returns than later phases - but you still get small gains. Metaphorically picking the low hanging fruit. This means grinding gets less and less rewarding. 

2) Periodic diminishing returns - you get benefit from bouts of practice but if you keep plugging away in a single session you get minimal additional gains. 

3) Practicing the skill has a cost in terms of resources. I know the devs have said they're against soft skills affecting things like shooting but to me subtle improvements in weapon handling make sense but you'd have to burn through a lot of rounds to get the gains. Make it weapon or weapon class specific. And if ammo is rare you're going to have to decide if practice without a live target is worth it. Also you'd attract attention if you were shooting empty cans of beans. 

These examples are based on aspects of real-world skill learning. All three could be reasonably implemented in my mind. 

[Sqeezorz 839]

Another aspect to this thematic

https://forums.dayz.com/topic/235931-dayz-soft-skills-alternative-plan/

[green_mtn_grandbob 594]

Soft skills are a work in progress,not up to us, too many cooks spoil the soup comes to mind. 

[emuthreat 2837]

4 hours ago, green_mtn_grandbob said:

Soft skills are a work in progress,not up to us, too many cooks spoil the soup comes to mind. 

Yes, and a chef who tries to avoid putting people off with too much spice or complexity, will produce a bland product that pleases nobody.

[sneakydude 480]

18 hours ago, green_mtn_grandbob said:

Soft skills are a work in progress,not up to us, too many cooks spoil the soup comes to mind. 

Why shouldn't it be somewhat up to us? if we don't like it i am sure the devs will not introduce a shitty system.

Plus if we don't like it, we will block it on modding one way or another.

[emuthreat 2837]

I am more concerned that they should add all the capability for a complex system, just so it is there for players to work with it if they choose.  It is easier to take away than to add, so having a comprehensive skill system fully fleshed-out would be a good thing for 1.0.

[Fing 111]

Yep Emuthreat I whole heartedly agree with you in this thread.  I certainly don't like the proposal of the devs at the moment. I don't rely mind skills in the game, but they should be hidden. Its by your actions that you know how good at it you are not some skill bar that you can see. And yes over time and the internet will tell you what you can do how long it will take you to get good at it, but you have to spend time doing it.  What I would like to see is that if you don't use that skill for some time it starts to degrade as it would in real life.  You have to keep the practice up to maintain that skill.  It never drops to the starting point as you have already been good at it, eg you start at 1 point in that skill reach 30 points you don't use that skill say for 15 days it goes down to 10 and stays there until you use that skill again. And if people want to grind that's up to them, but in the grand scheme of things it only helps them at that moment in time not for the rest of the game. If you constantly do the same thing because that's what you wan't to do eg farm then you are good at it. I don't like this see saw skills  thing. 

[scriptfactory 620]

After mulling it over I have come to the conclusion that this new skills system is pretty bad. My opinion doesn't matter, of course, but I would much prefer that characters are born with a "job" and its skills improve over time. You could read a book to improve skills not related to your job but these would be lost on death. Your job would be persistence (once a mechanic, always a mechanic) but all skills would reset on death. Done. Easy.

[kopo79 426]

just thought about this and what if the learning thingy just doesnt affect anything but its just are connected to your ingame stats?
you can then praise yourself on forum that "MY FISHING STATS ARE 67".