Upcoming aircrafts discussion

[Funkdoc 46]

hi there,

i m a little sceptical about aircrafts coming up in future patches. the reason is the easy way to find camps and bases at higher altitudes. bushes and trees are not really a optical obstacle to recognise one or some tents from above.

pilots can even see them when the draw distance from tents is 150m, that really destroys everyone's thoughts on tents and bases. especially choppers will be a very gamekilling aircraft. heli pilots could easily land in the middle of your base and rob all your good stuff within a minute, no matter how the base was fenced.

how could this be prevented?

[Richard III in Leicester 200]

Hide your camp better. Or spread your stashes out across the map so it's not all at the same location. Things like that can help if you want a better chance. 

Helis won't be gamekilling - they make the game.

This won't and shouldn't be prevented. It should become a staple of the game. You think the stuff in your camp belongs to you? It doesn't.

Yes heli pilots and all their mates can come and raid the tents you've put down. Flatten everything and steal whatever they want then leave traps for when you return, to kill you and your mates. That's been in DayZ for 4 years or however long since the mod days.. 

It is harder now to hide tents since the game no longer has the small camo tent and won't let you hide it under conifers and things like that which used to help. But they are adding underground stashes aren't they? They should. They were very useful in the mod. 

Edited August 1, 2016 by Richard III in Leicester
beffudled memory

[Funkdoc 46]

7 minutes ago, Richard III in Leicester said:

Hide your camp better.

there is no way to hide camps better even if they are camo.

if a heli pilot flies above 70m over ground, he can spot every tent on a server within 1 hour, if he flies the known tent and base spots... and there are not too many locations where one will build up a tent.

the problem is the trees in a forest can hide a camp only in horizontal view. if u fly over u can see everything. i call this gamekilling.

22 minutes ago, Richard III in Leicester said:

But they are adding underground stashes aren't they?

not really, the only thing i have seen from devs regarding to that was a crate that could be hidden in the ground, but i think that was not confirmed. underground bases are definitely not comming through map restrictions.

how many aircrafts should be spawning on a server without breaking the immersion in a survivors gameplay?

[Richard III in Leicester 200]

Yes if a heli flies etc etc I know. I used to run DayZ mod servers and part of the game was searching for camps in helis. That's part of the risk with any camp and part of the reward of finally getting a heli airbourne. We had a base once with over ten vehicles and 5 helis on my old mod server (the good old days ;) ) but we knew it was stupid really hoarding all that and one day we logged in and they were all destroyed, it's to be expected in DayZ. But the most fun was in finding who had done it and getting revenge; and then rebuilding of course. 

As for hiding them better, there are still places around Willow lake that can hide things and they won't be seen from above, under the willow trees there. That's just one example. 
Doesn't persistence also allow rifles and weapons to be stashed on their own under a bush or something similar and that would be very well hidden? Crates are a good idea for something like this but more permanent.
I would store things strung out across the map, with tents south of Lopatino, another stash up North past devil's castle, rescue stashes around other spots like Willow lake or around the road South of Krasno and more across to Berezino in a spot along the coast there just South of the city. If it's spread out you keep from getting everything taken at once.

Anyway that probably doesn't answer your original question, but I don't think helis will ruin the game at all, it would ruin the sense of safety that some might have though at the moment and I suppose that's what you might be on about. But I think that's a good thing. This is supposed to be the end of the world and there should be no safety really. 

Yes they should develop the stashes again like we used to have. Standalone needs them. Did you not play the mod? They would just show as a manhole cover basically. Could put one under a decent tree and from more than a few metres away could barely be seen. They couldn't hold much but were useful for vital small things. The oil barrels are a bit similar and can be hidden well in trees I thought.

24 minutes ago, Funkdoc said:

how many aircrafts should be spawning on a server without breaking the immersion in a survivors gameplay?

1

We used to have 4 little birds, 2 Mi-17 and 2 Hueys on the old official DayZ mod servers I used to run and that wasn't too many. And the map was more restricted then, far less player spreadout because there were less areas of interest and less towns and less loot spread. Supermarkets and firestations were pretty much guaranteed to get a shootout. You would be running into players a lot more often on the mod, but nearly everyone had some form of transportation or a friend with something even if it was only a bike. Now it's still mostly the endless running without getting tired. But, still developing etc etc... So I wouldn't worry too much. Yes if you've got a big tent city you're going to get stung. But that would happen in reality wouldn't it, sooner or later? I think this all adds to the immersion and the fear that is supposed to be there with DayZ. The first times you're out running in the woods and hear a heli flying towards you you shit yourself and run for cover. The next time you take position and wait for them to come into firing range. That's part of DayZ life hehe.
 

[Blafirelli 39]

Make helis realistically difficult to maintain and pilot, so their advantage is well deserved...

[EdStaffordZombie 63]

People who complains about the helicopters never have played Dayz Mod...

Helis are the most funniest part of Dayz. I remember time ago when one friend and me stole one big choppa from some guys in the middle of a city. It was really awesome to plan it, my friend were the distraction to the guys, i was the one going sneaky and i was able to fullfill the gas of the hellicopter and pick up my friend at the top of a building. It was maybe one of my funniest situations i've ever had on Dayz.

Who cares about someone finding your camp. The main principle of Dayz is to not get attached to your gear, so is like in real world, nothing is unfindable. Next time search for a safer or more hiden place...

Helis adds a lot to the Dayz gameplay, they will add a lot of stressful situations trying to do your best to stole that chopper that you've looked landing 1 km to the north, also cooperation with maybe some other player to raid it....

Nothing more to add.. Helis are the essence of the long term Dayz gameplay, if someone does not agree, just play some old Dayz Mod server and have a great time! :D

Edited August 1, 2016 by EdStaffordZombie

[SMoss 2101]

53 minutes ago, Blafirelli said:

Make helis realistically difficult to maintain and pilot, so their advantage is well deserved...

This is the plan in regards to the helicopters. There will be very few of them and maintenance will be quite a task as well, so you won't have to worry about hiding your camp from 10 different airborn teams of players roaming across the map.

[BeefBacon 1185]

I can't imagine some freshspawn is going to happen upon a fully functioning chopper on the coast and is going to fly around spotting camps. It will, or it should, take a ton of work to get a helicopter working. Also, I seem to recall, there will be more trees and denser foliage in future updates. I think the devs said they were planning on doubling the number of trees, or something like that.

I don't know how big bases will typically be. I don't know if landing a chopper in the middle of one will be feasible. I don't know if there'll be secure storage options. Besides, if your base is in the middle of a forest, do you really think people would be keen on landing a chopper in that? You don't spend however long fixing up a helicopter only to risk crashing into a tree.

5 minutes ago, SMoss said:

This is the plan in regards to the helicopters. There will be very few of them and maintenance will be quite a task as well, so you won't have to worry about hiding your camp from 10 different airborn teams of players roaming across the map.

I expect they'll be somewhat more common to begin with - in experimental, say - so they can be more widely tested?

[Funkdoc 46]

@SMoss

good to hear.

another option from protecting camps from tent scouting by helis is to generally hide tents from the view on an aircraft.

i know this sounds hard to some of you, but its more realistic anyway. u dont see a tent at normal flight level in real life.

please dont misunderstand me, i also like helis and want to see them in dayz, but not like in the mod.

33 minutes ago, BeefBacon said:

Besides, if your base is in the middle of a forest, do you really think people would be keen on landing a chopper in that?

 a littlebird dont need much space to land, just a few metres.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Funkdoc

[Tigermonk 140]

2 hours ago, Funkdoc said:

there is no way to hide camps better even if they are camo.

if a heli pilot flies above 70m over ground, he can spot every tent on a server within 1 hour, if he flies the known tent and base spots... and there are not too many locations where one will build up a tent.

the problem is the trees in a forest can hide a camp only in horizontal view. if u fly over u can see everything. i call this gamekilling.

not really, the only thing i have seen from devs regarding to that was a crate that could be hidden in the ground, but i think that was not confirmed. underground bases are definitely not comming through map restrictions.

how many aircrafts should be spawning on a server without breaking the immersion in a survivors gameplay?

well most dev. no large planes.. since the space for the map is about the size of a hair.. if you're talking about aircraft.. so big ass cargo planes.. NOPE.. small heli's YES.. jets? NOPE small crop duster? MAAAAYBE
so 'planes' in general not a good idea.. NOW... if the mods come out.. and people use a map 4 times the size it is now? (look it up on yt) then planes would become a thing. since that would mean a 4 hour (IRL) drive from one part of the map towards the other end.

[BeefBacon 1185]

29 minutes ago, Funkdoc said:

 

a littlebird dont need much space to land, just a few metres.

If you want to squeeze your littlebird that you just spent 4 hours fixing up into a tiny gap between trees in the middle of a forest, be my guest.

[Funkdoc 46]

5 minutes ago, BeefBacon said:

If you want to squeeze your littlebird that you just spent 4 hours fixing up into a tiny gap between trees in the middle of a forest, be my guest.

without auto-hovering i wouldnt risk it..thats right. but how to build up a base in a forest when the average space between trees is 5 to 7m?

 

topic: planes are really hard to deal with i think. there are 3 airfield/airstrips and some plains where u can land but how to hide it from others when u just fixed it up. it isnt very steerable on ground...and u cant push back

[Gobbokirk 546]

1 hour ago, SMoss said:

This is the plan in regards to the helicopters. There will be very few of them and maintenance will be quite a task as well, so you won't have to worry about hiding your camp from 10 different airborn teams of players roaming across the map.

There is also the issue of actually hiding the heli itself when you log out. So it wont be something you'll easily have for weeks and weeks.

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

Doubling the number of trees won't mean jack till settings are standardized such that going Very Low won't let you see through said trees like they weren't ever there. =/

[Funkdoc 46]

i made a screenshots of Chernarus+ and Tanoa for comparison

looks like the new arma3 apex trees looks good for hiding tents

[eno 1049]

8 hours ago, Richard III in Leicester said:

Helis won't be gamekilling - they make the game.

Yes. Definitely a staple of all open world survival video games. Or no. 

It's been a year and a half since they introduced the V3S into DayZ and all vehicles are currently, erm -Please be patient with me as I try to word this as politely as possible- broken as fucking all-get-out (nailed it). I have very little confidence in any "realistic helicopter" operation any time in any future considering what little it's going to add to the experience other than a glitchy diversion that will get old much sooner than it finds a stable configuration. 

If you guys want dayz mod so much- then go play that. I wish people would stop trying to transform DayZ SA Vanilla into what the Mod was. I'll concede that there is a bunch of new tech that can benefit gameplay so someone taking SA and modding it down to the basic pew pew fuckfest would have benefits for those pursuing that type of experience. Why they're wasting any resources on choppers for vanilla is just further evidence that the dev team has lost sight of its original destination having spent too much time staring at the roadmap in search of tourist traps instead of paying attention to where it was going.   

Edited August 1, 2016 by eno

[Salty seadog 125]

Its not dayz without them! Im secretly hoping for a huey with door guns and pickup/humvee with a hmg. So long as thermals and tanks dont make it in! But yes, I do hope a mechanic is added in to really help hide your base, maybe just awesome camo netting that can fashion the same textures as the ground its placed on?

 

That said, I only care about one thing! BS deaths due to the game engine wigging out. Just played some arma 3 exile for a while, and I lost 17 helicopters to glitches and bugs. Tow rope randomly shot into the air an destroyed the chopper, landing on base helipads and the chopper just glitches and explodes,heli fell off helipad during restart, flying over rocks on tanoa causes the game to drop from 70 fps down to 1-2 fps and I crash, random disconnects even though I have excellent connection, you name it. Didnt get to destroy one of my heli's myself! I stopped playing arma 3 and tanoa already because of horrible optimisation in places and glitches. Im fairly patient, but losing 17 helis just wore me out! So I think it needs to be priority number 1, to ensure the engine dosent pull the rug out from under ya like in A3. I could only imagine how disheartning spending hours or days fixing up a heli, only to have it bug out, or fall of your helipad during a restart! I would cry...

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

5 hours ago, Funkdoc said:

i made a screenshots of Chernarus+ and Tanoa for comparison

The Tanoa screenshot is at a more oblique angle than the Chernarus one, and thus does not make a good comparison. Any chance you could snag one that's more vertical? I'm afraid I don't have ArmA 3.

1 hour ago, eno said:

If you guys want dayz mod so much- then go play that. I wish people would stop trying to transform DayZ SA Vanilla into what the Mod was.

We all knew helicopters would eventually be a thing in SA. I can't fathom how you missed the memo. I certainly want to see them in the game. The whole point of this development has been, at base, to upgrade the mod and add more survival elements, not rip out the stuff some people don't like. =/

[eno 1049]

6 minutes ago, Funkmaster Rick said:

We all knew helicopters would eventually be a thing in SA. I can't fathom how you missed the memo. I certainly want to see them in the game. The whole point of this development has been, at base, to upgrade the mod and add more survival elements, not rip out the stuff some people don't like. =/

I'll admit I didn't know from the beginning of development that choppers were going to be included. If I did, well... I'd have thought it was as fucking stupid as I do now. But so be it... I guess if everyone but me knew from the beginning they were going to be rolled in then I'm an idiot. 

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

Eh, it's part of the experience. At least there'll be a new endgame during the alpha. And you should really consider the appeal: if you decide you dislike someone (probably because they attack you) but manage to tie them up, you'll likely be able to force them into the helicopter, fly them out over the ocean, and drop them for a nice long swim home. =)

[eno 1049]

After feeding them human guts... Yes. I like the way you think. 

[Judged_Guitly 80]

 You think cars are bullet magnets, wait till these things begin flying around.  Personally I cant wait to shoot down helicopters.  I think once you get the right weapon and figure out how to lead them, it should be a crap shoot.  I'm even going to set up decoy camps with empty tents to bring them in.  All that work getting it up in the air just to loose it so quickly, ha.  I'm excited just imagining that first helo kill.  Parachutes deployed and then the ground hunt begins. That ought to bring some life back into the game.

[Parazight 1599]

Helicopters' role is to find bases. 

The real question is; what secondary uses will we have with heli parts??  

Can I build an IED with heli materials?

Please, yes. 

[FlimFlamm 509]

On the DayZ mod, aircraft were my thing, and as a result I have a pretty clear idea of how choppers in DayZ SA will impact gameplay... (and planes... everybody discounts the trusty plane)

At first, there are going to be 2-4 aircraft per map. One plane and one chopper, maybe two of each if the devs so choose...

Initially, aircraft will be so rare that seeing or hearing one in the sky will fill you with a sense of excitement. It was this way in the early days of the mod. They will quickly become owned and operated by only the largest and most powerful group(s) that exist on any given server, except for when they exist in the hands of random survivors, for short periods of time, when they get stolen/destroyed/respawned from the large groups who will monopolize them.

When only a couple aircraft exist, actually owning, maintaining, and defending them becomes an extraordinarily laborious affair simply because the entire server is basically willing to sacrifice their lives for an outside chance to steal your helicopter from you (in many cases they aren't worth the effort of keeping them).  If people see one, they follow it; if they find where you land it's only a matter of time before they destroy or steal it. When aircraft are extremely limited (2-4 only per map) they become the most valuable objects in the game due to their rarity and unique utility, and for this reason, 90% of all players simply will not give up on hunting for them after they exhaust the other gameplay focuses that DayZ offers. Paradoxically the rarity driven value of aircraft on a server where only two exist is so high that protecting them exceeds and interferes with their functional utility value; you're better off not wasting effort in trying to find or keep one and just use them opportunistically if you happen to find one.

Given that aircraft themselves in this scenario become so incredibly valuable, flying them around and landing in random bases becomes far too risky, even landing in your own base has the risk of attracting players. The way helicopters will initially be used, as they were on the mod, will be mostly for picking up friends across Chernarus, especially fresh spawns, for transporting items over long distances, and scouting.

I am extremely confident that the above assessment is precisely how aircraft will play out initially; their impact on game-play actually winds up being negligible because your odds of seeing one, interacting with one, or being exploited by one are very very slim due to their rarity and how greedily they will be hoarded.

Which brings be to the next reality that played out on the mod which will absolutely play out on Vanilla SA too: you will be scrolling down the vanilla server list, when suddenly, "1000+ VEHICLE SERVER / TONS OF AIRCRAFT / CLAN PVP JOIN OR DIE!!!!!!!!!"

Since aircraft were so highly prized, and since it sometimes took 3 months of playing the game to organically get your hands on one, essentially people got tired of not having a reliable means to enter "the end game" (aircraft ownership, at the time...) and so favored joining servers which severely cranked up the number of vehicle spawns. These servers became the most popular servers until the DayZ mod "mods" themselves arrived and brought with them supplementary forms of vehicle acquisition such as makeshift vehicle construction (bicycles and mozzies, etc...) and automated safe-zone NPC vendors (not that I want them).

The real problem with cranking up the number of  vehicle spawns is that it makes them very easy to acquire which cheapens their value and goes on to impact the game-play experience in multiple negative ways: It becomes to easy to project power at low levels with easy vehicle access, and they become cheap/disposable due to the fact that more will always spawn and they will be easy to find. Kamikaze'ing becomes attractive in this vehicle laden environment.

So it was, so it is said, and so it shall be...

The best solution to this, IMO, and the one I predict the modding community will provide upon beta, is to have some form of constructable vehicle system. It sounds like too much, but the alternative is to either have vehicles (especially aircraft) be too easy to get or not reliably getable whatsoever due to rarity. Constructable vehicles such as bicycles, go-kart like creations, ultralight planes and "mozzie" helicopters, could be difficult to create without requiring the extreme luck factor needed to stumble upon them if they are ultra-rare. It trades a hard upper limit on number of aircraft per server (defined by how many spawn in traditionally) for a soft upper limit determined by how much time people are available on a server, and are willing, to invest in the extensive resource requirements for vehicle construction. It might require many weeks worth of hard work for a lone survivor to gather, stash, and work the required materials into an actual working vehicle, but at least at the end of the weeks of work the chances of success become much higher (approaching 100% if you play carefully enough and don't get robbed during the process). Additionally makeshift vehicles are inherently weak things. Ko-karts can go fast and could tow a wagon if they have a good engine (relatively) but they have passenger and weight limitations. Ultralight aircraft would be good for transporting the pilot, scouting, and carrying compact and very light cargo, like blood bags, and that's about it. Makeshift vehicles don't make traditional vehicles obsolete, they just supplement vehicle access and lower level vehicle utility.

Again, they sound like a bit much, but in reality what we're about to see is "a bit much" in the form of extreme aircraft rarity (i.e, spend three months trying to get an aircraft before just giving up) followed by "a bit more" in the form of extreme aircraft prevalence when every server and it's grandmother server jacks the spawn rates, until finally (or when) the beta gets released, at which point the entire community becomesa keenly aware of the "how many aircraft should each server spawn" dilemma and then it will be left either for the devs to address it (likely no because content wise it might prove to be too much extra work) or the modding community itself to address it, which it will, for better or for worse. My hope is that some great mod gets released which uses constructable vehicles to address the issues that are inherent in hard upper limits on vehicle numbers and then gets scooped up, refined, and incorporated into the release of 1.0. Vanilla is going to have all the same problems of the original DayZ mod if we don't learn from it's history.

And to those who fear the imminent onset of full blown aircraft-syndrome, don't. DayZ players will in the end gravitate toward whichever kinds of servers do the best job, and so whatever becomes popular will be the best available version. Aircraft won't be the end of the end of the DayZ world, even if that means servers just disabling aircraft altogether. Not everyone was there in DayZ olden times, but many of us were, and those who were remember that in the end it was not super rare aircraft that was popular, nor super prevalent aircraft. Those were just pit stops on the way to new forms of the original DayZ mod which incorporated supplemental vehicle access in as many forms as the hard working modders could manage.

The new mechanic of having to repair vehicles using an intricate and hard to satisfy system allows DayZ SA in it's current vanilla state to jack up the number of vehicle spawns without making it as easy to actually get vehicles as it was in the original DayZ mod, but the hard upper limit can still become an issue for high pop servers. The comments of SMoss (bless him <3) in this thread are in line with my predictions for the first stage of aircraft in DayZ...

Mark my words!!!

Edited August 2, 2016 by FlimFlamm

[Richard III in Leicester 200]

16 hours ago, eno said:

If you guys want dayz mod so much- then go play that. I wish people would stop trying to transform DayZ SA Vanilla into what the Mod was.

Thank you for being polite. It's not that I want DayZ mod; that was then, this is now. And I only speak of DayZ vanilla mod as well. None of the Epoch stuff I never really liked any of those mods of mods of the mod...
To be fair I don't play DayZ or any games much anymore I don't have the spare time. But the mod was excellent while it lasted. And that's the hope of the SA isn't it? To grow from the feel and the experience of the mod but into a better, bigger, harsher and more challenging version I thought? (Without the hackers as well)

No I don't want a pew pew shoot fest at all, not really, but it does need to have that element in the game it's still a key part of the experience I think. As for flight yes I do want the aim of or chance of seeing a heli in the standalone.. 
I can tell you this, as the OP asked about being able to hide bases currently, and helis making it easy to find them - hiding a heli was usually just as much trouble as getting the thing airborne in the first place. Also flying and maintaining one would be far more difficult now than the mod; we can already see that with the vehicles we have so far. Which is a good thing isn't it. 
Having a heli should be a near impossible feat. And piloting the thing should also be difficult and take a lot of practice.
Even in Arma2 & mod the heli flying took some practice, but as standalone will be taking the 'take-on helicopters' or Arma3 set up it probably will be very difficult and take lots of crashing and dying before mastering flight lol, & be a far rarer thing for someone to be able to fly well and keep a heli going longterm and so on. 

That's why I say it won't be game breaking, it will still be a hugely rare thing I think to hear or see a heli going by. But as a survivor on the ground it is another thing to be wary of and that's fundamentally what DayZ is, and needs more of to make it have the feeling of imminent doom and the adrenaline that made it so great an experience in the first place.
Another reason why bases shouldn't be safe, to take it back to the OP question. There shouldn't really be a great safety net that all players have.
Even when you do get a good cache of weapons and gear stashed somewhere it should always be under some kind of potential threat shouldn't it? It would be boring without that.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Richard III in Leicester