Shotguns are a Joke.

[Deathlove 2286]

Shotguns need to be a lethal surgical tool in this game. There damage is not realistic at all for close ranged combat at the moment.

[Bororm 1156]

The other thing about shotguns is they have no penetration.  So if some one is in a pine they're like 90% shielded because it won't penetrate the branches.

[Whyherro123 2283]

The other thing about shotguns is they have no penetration.  So if some one is in a pine they're like 90% shielded because it won't penetrate the branches.

To be fair, shotgun buckshot has penetration capabilities similar to that of a pistol round. 12G 00 buck is roughly equal to a 9mm. Properly rated ballistic vests and plates should give reasonable protection against buckshot, same thing with cover. One reason buckshot-loaded shotguns are recommended for home defense is that the buckshot is unlikely to punch through a wall.

 

=HOWEVER=

 

even a 9mm will be able to punch through some pine branches.

[-Gews- 7443]

Seems like every other patch they are fucking up shotguns some how, even though I don't think they're actively doing anything to them the majority of the time.  So I really don't understand why they are such a mess compared to other weapons.

They aren't doing much to them. There was that time in 0.4X where they appeared to fire a single pellet, after that was fixed the config hasn't been changed. The damage on each pellet is between .380 and 9mm and in theory the sum damage from one 12-gauge blast is the same as if someone emptied a P1 into you, so it's not intentional. Possible issues:

-few pellet impacts

-unpredictable nature of shot pattern

-pellets hitting limbs, weapons

-not properly registering multiple impacts

-unknown bugs

The spread on these is also too high, at least in the ~50 m range.

[Bororm 1156]

To be fair, shotgun buckshot has penetration capabilities similar to that of a pistol round. 12G 00 buck is roughly equal to a 9mm. Properly rated ballistic vests and plates should give reasonable protection against buckshot, same thing with cover. One reason buckshot-loaded shotguns are recommended for home defense is that the buckshot is unlikely to punch through a wall.

 

=HOWEVER=

 

even a 9mm will be able to punch through some pine branches.

 

Yeah it would be reasonable if they had lower penetration, but they have 0 penetration.

 

 

They aren't doing much to them. There was that time in 0.4X where they appeared to fire a single pellet, after that was fixed the config hasn't been changed. The damage on each pellet is between .380 and 9mm and in theory the sum damage from one 12-gauge blast is the same as if someone emptied a P1 into you, so it's not intentional. Possible issues:

-few pellet impacts

-unpredictable nature of shot pattern

-pellets hitting limbs, weapons

-not properly registering multiple impacts

-unknown bugs

The spread on these is also too high, at least in the ~50 m range.

 

There was a period where it was doing one pellet for "regular" damage.  Then there was a period where it was doing one super pellet, for absurd damage (even knocked over trees/trash cans etc).  Then they tweaked regular damage a time or two.  Overall though, it seems like there's some other bug going on where their characteristics just get out of wack.  Maybe it's not properly registering multiple impacts like you say.

 

The bottom line is that they are inconsistent from patch to patch though.

 

And yeah, spread is atrocious.

 

 

I mean the part that gets to me is that there have been periods where shotguns were pretty much just right.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Bororm

[atempleton 123]

I had a similar instance a week ago with the MP-133 Stubby. I was in a construction building standing in a doorway and a fully decked out player comes bursting through the door with his M4 out. I point blanked him with the shotgun at less than a 2m distance. The blast showed blood everywhere, and completely decimated his vest, helmet, backpack and shirt, striking him in the upper chest, but he survived, ran straight past me, took another shot at the same range in the same spot, and proceeded to spray me down with his M4.

 

If you're struck by Buckshot from a Shotgun and you're within 40m, sorry dude, but you're going to die. If you have armour, you may not bleed, but you'll certainly be disorientated and knocked the fuck out. Shotguns are meant to be a high risk/high reward weapon due to their sheer damage but short range. They should be the undisputed kings of close quarters combat, and my god when the MP-133 first came out last year that's how it was (I used to PVP fully geared players in the Northwest and win with it because I could get myself smartly to close range,) but now they're absolutely pathetic. Players take point blank blasts and walk it off.

The amount of blood that splatters out alone should be a good indicator that the player is dead instantly. But no, they are barely scathed now.

[atempleton 123]

Shotguns are pathetic right now. A year ago, they were perfectly and realistically represented when it came to 12 Gauge Buckshot. Now, even players that are unclothed can shake it off like nothing happened to them. Sorry, but in any situation if you are struck by 12 gauge buckshot and within 40m of the target, you're going to die, or if you are wearing armour of some sort, you're going to be at the very least knocked the fuck out. Shotguns should be the undisputed high risk/high reward kings of close quarters and urban combat. One year ago when the MP-133 first came out shotguns were perfect. I was PVPing reliably with them in close quarters against geared players and able to win because I was smart enough to get within range and sneak up. Now, they're not worth the time. Not only are they difficult enough as it is to find in the first place, but the ammunition is uncommon and uneconomical due to only being found in 10 round boxes and only being able to be stacked to 15 round, and they are worthless pieces of junk anyway that any pistol, rifle or SMG is far superior to in all situations.

 

It is sad ultimately, because shotguns are the best and most ideal personal defense/indoor firearms you can have out there, and also perhaps the most highly sought after and most useful survival firearm out there too due to their versatility and sheer reliability over any other firearm. Yet in Day Z, they are the least sought after firearm, they are one of the worst personal defense/indoor firearms to have AND the most unreliable piece of junk in game.

 

Please bring back the old shotgun gameplay of 2014 where they were actually worth your time for players who know what they're doing.

[-Gews- 7443]

There was a period where it was doing one pellet for "regular" damage.  Then there was a period where it was doing one super pellet, for absurd damage (even knocked over trees/trash cans etc).  Then they tweaked regular damage a time or two.  Overall though, it seems like there's some other bug going on where their characteristics just get out of wack.  Maybe it's not properly registering multiple impacts like you say.

The bottom line is that they are inconsistent from patch to patch though.

 

And yeah, spread is atrocious.

 

 

I mean the part that gets to me is that there have been periods where shotguns were pretty much just right.

When alpha dropped they had some random values in there not worth mentioning, when they put in non-placeholder ballistics hit changed to "6", when the single pellet bug occurred this was changed to 60 (to compensate?), then back to 6 again where it is now. That was a year ago this month and it's been unchanged since, so at least this is not due to the config options.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gews

[pilgrim* 3514]

The other thing about shotguns is they have no penetration.  So if some one is in a pine they're like 90% shielded because it won't penetrate the branches.

 

yes - IMO that's why OPs fifth video shows no hit - the one titled <<...and moments later...>>  ?

I wouldn't bank on shooting anything through a wire mesh fence

 

*

 

BUT as everyone knows - IRL if you shoot someone from 4-6 feet away with a shotgun, he WILL BE definitely seriously messed up.

Even if he is totally bomb-proof-vested plus helmet and faceplate -  the dude will not stay just standing up (and less penetration = more force transferred)

 

ALSO the idea that you can't tell if you are on target when you pull the trigger ?.. with a shotgun ?  .. nah..  

With a revolver or rifle perhaps.. but a shotgun at close range?     IRL you can TELL if you are pointing at the guy or not - it is extremely difficult to miss unless you do it on purpose.

And - especially a sawed-off -  IRL it is (lol) more important to make sure that you are standing Behind it, than exactly what you are pointing at in Front of it.

 

OK there are hit box and lag difficulties, but in close-range combats the game should not encourage everyone to go for automatic weapons and spray-to-kill IMO

The game would be more interesting to have more variation in close range weapons effectiveness.

So maybe add a wider 'spread' to shotguns at short range, say just to 9-10m? (30 feet) only, or even less.  At short range a one shot, body-hit, shotgun SHOULD be a winner over totally everything else. A player even uninjured by a shotgun blast should at least fall down.

 

This is a difficult compromise between pure weapons realism and what actually happens in gameplay.. Gews is the reference on weapons realism, but I think (at close range) you also must take lag and hitbox parameters into account, as they are in the game ATM, to end up with a more "realistic" gameplay effect  ??

 

======

 

Note:

                 Stevens 12g mod.77E shotgun

 

                

 

               <<With the United States Government's involvement in the Viet-Nam War early reports came back from the troops in the field asking for combat shotguns.>>

 

                Why ?

                Really, why did IRL on-the-ground combat troops want to exchange their M14 or M16 for a pump gun ?

 

xx

Edited November 4, 2015 by pilgrim

[star-lord252 83]

Shotguns just piss me off. sometimes the pump action ones can be a one shot kill but sometimes its just a one shot ruin ever dam item in his inventory and me get pumped 60 rounds of lead my an m4. The double barrel fails me the least the pistol grip usually always fails one of the best kills I had was from an izh but the pump just I can shoot dam all rounds and just ruin all his gear and the guy walks out of the situation like you got hit with some pebbles. They need a buff or some changes so instead of ruining all the gear and seeing a shit load of blood coming out of the body it just kills them. Besides we've got a saiga 12 coming, slugs I heard are in the work again, and shot gun ammo is to dam rare I find more mosin and .308 winchester ammo than shotgun ammo.

[sneakydudes 278]

What, exactly, do you consider "close range"? A "standard" 12G 00 buck shell can easily kill a deer-sized (read: a person) target out to 30-40 meters (read: 100 - 130 feet). Factor in the different chokes available, and you could get that even farther. 

 

 

Shit, this guy makes a lethal buckshot kill on a deer-sized target at 80 fucking yards.

 

And, even if a buckshot pellet doesn't turn your liver into a fine paste, getting buckshot punched through your intestines and limbs will 1) hurt like HELL (send you into shock) 2) knock you out and 3) pretty much guarantee a death due to infection.

You are correct, hunting with my father as a child shown me how far he could kill a deer at. It would most likely kill someone too.

Why do police squads even carry shotguns, and police officers carry one in the trunk? if its not effective.

 

I think i can honestly say i agree with this topic and its very much true. Increase the shotgun for decent impact range, and durability.

 

If i got hit with one up close i don't think i have would have anything less then a arm dangling.

 

I hope this gets adjusted for beta tweaks

 

+1

[ZomboWTF 527]

every game i have ever played has crap shotguns not sure why i always figured if they made them like they actually are folks would whine and cry and say they are OP. I agree i would love the shotgun to be what it should be close range death.

 

actually shotguns are depicted extremly false in most games, as if they spread out so that using them beyond 15 meters is useless...

 

the only game i've every played where shotguns were actually close to real-life was Survarium,

which don't mind trying to play, because it's mutated into a bad cash-grabbing CoD clone reskin

 

the shotguns however were able to kill people quite easily at 50 meters, with pretty tigh groupings at that range (you could still hit 3-4 pellets of your 12gauge) , which i simply loved

 

the shotguns in DayZ spread way to far, and should ALWAYS knock people out when getting a good meatshot at closer than 30 meters

thats the strongest point of a shotgun: the stopping power

yet in dayz sadly this is shown in no way whatsoever, shotguns even tend to do no damage at all, as if clothing could stop a 12-gauge from 30 meters completely...

total rubbish, these really need a rebalance later, or sooner, rather sooner, because i love using pump-action shotguns

 

but of course there are things that need to be looked at first, like zombie AI, netcode, the current implementation of the new renderer etc, good gunplay wont help much if the game is

still a pain to play because of lag/desync/no zombies/bad hit detection or bugs ;)

Edited November 5, 2015 by Zombo

[7Sixty2 2]

Must be just you, every shot from my MP-133 that I have fired have landed into peoples chests and they've died on the spot.

[Bororm 1156]

Must be just you, every shot from my MP-133 that I have fired have landed into peoples chests and they've died on the spot.

Just "you" who because the majority of the thread is in agreement that they suck.

[-Gews- 7443]

Another future problem is that the shotguns have incorrect ballistics. They pasted some stuff from the Mosin which means each pellet has a BC in the mid-0.400s (at 300 m loses only 25% of its speed, real life = ~80%, max range ~2000 m, real life, ~550 m). It should be in the 0.03-0.04 range. If and when that's fixed the damage downrange will be lower than now, more distance, more difference. If they halve the spread, more hits, hopefully that would maintain or even improve the effectiveness. They could also up the damage a bit but each pellet is already more powerful than .380 and those two should be kept at similar levels.

[slizzedy 70]

I'm really surprised to read about your experience with shotguns. Have they been nerfed? I can remember that a couple of versions ago (when the MP133 with pistol grip was introduced) I easily got some kills from one shot to the chest at bigger distances than you were shooting (about 20-30m). The shotgun seemed like a VERY DEADLY weapon to me in close combat situations. Only downside I saw was that it ruins most of the targets gear and you'll bearly get any loot.

 

But maybe it was desync like other people mentioned.

 

I have also seen this dirt and rocks coming of a body when hit thing you described. I am pretty sure that this happens when you hit the gear of the player. Certainly, all of shotgun pellets hitting a small derringer is pretty much unrealistic.

[Bororm 1156]

When the rocks happen no damage is transferred to the player or items.  It's almost definitely the shot hitting the gun.  I've had it happen multiple times now.

 

It's something else that should have an effect imo.  It should damage the weapon, or create some sort of status effect.  I'd almost like it to knock the gun out of your hand, but I feel like the amount of random times it happens would end up with that just being a frustrating mechanic more than anything.  Maybe forcing you to lower the gun would work, but again might just feel too shitty.  Damaging the weapon itself should be a thing though, degrading it a quality level at the very least.

[atempleton 123]

If a gun is in your hand and gets shot, I think it should instantly be put out of action, or at least become heavily damaged.

[7Sixty2 2]

I just want to know when slug shot shells will be back.

[pilgrim* 3514]

When the rocks happen no damage is transferred to the player or items.  It's almost definitely the shot hitting the gun.  I've had it happen multiple times now.

 

It's something else that should have an effect imo.  It should damage the weapon, or create some sort of status effect.  I'd almost like it to knock the gun out of your hand, but I feel like the amount of random times it happens would end up with that just being a frustrating mechanic more than anything.  Maybe forcing you to lower the gun would work, but again might just feel too shitty.  Damaging the weapon itself should be a thing though, degrading it a quality level at the very least.

 

Interesting idea, yes

 

I have had a zombie hit me once and "ruin" the 1911 I was holding (was "pristine") with no damage to anything else. So I think this mechanic can 'work' in all situations where a player is hit by some attack.

It is a first approximation of 'realistic' except when the hit is caused by multiple pellets - because then it doesn't fit.

And sure - if a rifle bullet destroyed the handgun you are holding IRL your hand would not be in a good state at all.  But also IRL one or 2 military rounds can often kill, but not ruin all your clothes or damage much gear (maybe 1 or 2 objects max?) unless you count bloodstains as making stuff "ruined" ..

 

So, it's a problem - a scatter gun is a special case not like other arms or melee weapons. I thought perhaps: even if you are hit but uninjured, and your gear takes the damage, you should hesitate, stagger, even sometimes fall over? But falling over in a firefight means you are pretty certainly totally doomed, because of the time it takes to stand up.

 

So, a stagger animation, maybe.. say just a half second (max) of pause that goes with the flash you get from a hit.. ? would that be too much of a status effect already?

 

A bullet or an axe are both single-impact-penetration attacks; but a bunch of pellets or slugs are really a different kind of attack (like 8 or 12 different attacks all at once?). There should be gear damage AND physical damage almost every time.

Also, a close shotgun blast just can't "hit your gun" without probably taking most of your hand off.

Edited November 9, 2015 by pilgrim

[ZomboWTF 527]

maybe even add bean bags, doing some health damage, extreme shock damage, but don't ruin gear or result in bleeding

 

i think i would never use anything else anymore^^

[THUNDERMINE 2]

next time tell him to stand still duct tape his arms and shoot him in the skull. if he doesnt die then uninstall.

[hotcakes 348]

shotguns were only relevant in one patch where they had 10x regular damage for some reason

 

now they have really, really low damage values

[stinkenheim 249]

Was in a gunfight at the nwaf on Friday, the guy took 3 shots from my blaze and fell unconscious my friend went over to finish him whilst I scanned the area. He shot him twice in the head with a shotgun and the guy still didn't die so yeah, shotguns aren't the greatest atm.

[KenoSkir88 181]

Dunno what you're all on about to tell ya the truth. The 133 long shotgun is my 2nd favorite weapon after M4 and i get tonnes of kills with it, often first shot...