Primitive equipment: possibilities and such

[Whyherro123 2283]

So, with the implementation of "tanned leather clothing" in the last patch, we now have the ability to make almost everything we need to survive without actually going into town. We have clothing (need leather and fertilizer: how fertilizer tans the leather is beyond me), a knife, and a ranged weapon (the bow, which is still both too shitty to actually use, and too "good" for what it is made from)

 

Key word: ALMOST

 

I, for one, would like to be able to play this game without ever having to actually enter a developed area (known to myself as KOS-filled deathtrap-havens : P) This means that we must be able to build fires and store water in some fashion, as the only ways to do so currently are with matches and bottles/canteens. 

 

There are, of course, "primitive" ways of making fires, all with varying levels of difficulty, effectiveness, and effort required. Probably the most effective method is through a bow-drill. They are (relatively) easy to construct, easy to use, and, with skill and effort, fast (I've gotten a fire started in about 2 minutes using a bow drill. I had the fire already laid, and merely transferred the coals over to it when they lit via the drill. There is also the hand-drill method, which SUCKS (but still works), or striking flint (I am going to assume that the in-game "stone knife" is flint, for ease-of-mind) on other various stones.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Sl_xU8btwk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUr4LDKAdQE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkhTnnQ6Auo

 

As for making water-tight containers from natural materials, either gourds (pumpkins) or resin-covered leather would work. Workable resin could be made from either pine or birch trees, and dries water-tight.  Take the resin-coated leather and fold/sew it into a workable bag. http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=150962

 

As for the whole "tanned leather" thing, I understand that this is supposed to be a game, but....come on. That isn't how leather is made!

 

My solution: take 4 sticks and bind them together into a "tanning rack". Drop said tanning rack into the environment, then move the raw hides onto the tanning rack from the inventory. Take some "guts" from the animal, then move them "onto" the hide on the rack. Over time (just like gardens/snares) the hides will change into leather. Semi-realistic, and doesn't take too much time

 

Also, animals should offer much more resources than they currently do. More meat, more hides, more "guts", more bones. An animal should be an amazing resource, not just "meh, I guess I'll shoot that deer".

 

Of course, man can not live off meat alone! I have wanted a more fleshed-out "foraging" system implemented for a while now. All manner of plants in the woods and in the fields either are edible, have some craft-worthy purpose, or are useful for medicine.  Maybe the addition of a "survival manual" or "field guide" as a book could help to identify which plants are useful?

 

Here are some of my proposed recipes

-"cordage": take handfuls of grass and twist them together (

) or the tendons from an animal and use them for binding.

-"Bow-drill": 3 sticks + 1 cordage

-"Hand-drill": 2 sticks

-"Flint striker" 2 "small stones"

-Various clothing: various tanned hides + bone awl + cordage

-"waterskin": "Guts" + cordage + 1 tanned hide + resin

 

 

 

[Deathlove 2286]

Primitive weapons are going to have to be allot stronger than what they currently are to even entice ppl to get away from cities. The bow being way to weak does not help. The stone knife is ok but it does not beat the fire axe by any means in terms of its one hit death blows to infected.

 

Im all for what you mentioned for crafting gear but again weapons need to be stronger and thats why ppl keep going to towns.

 

Fusing weapon some of the weapon cultures of  Native Americans would be cool to like a stone tomahawk, cow or bulls for the bone axe and deer's for bone knifes from the antler.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Deathlove

[nexventor 429]

I hope they do as well/

[Whyherro123 2283]

Primitive weapons are going to have to be allot stronger than what they currently are to even entice ppl to get away from cities. The bow being way to weak does not help. The stone knife is ok but it does not beat the fire axe by any means in terms of its one hit death blows to infected.

 

Im all for what you mentioned for crafting gear but again weapons need to be stronger and thats why ppl keep going to towns.

 

Fusing weapon some of the weapon cultures of  Native Americans would be cool to like a stone tomahawk, cow or bulls for the bone axe and deer's for bone knifes from the antler.

AS for making crafted weapons "stronger", how about the following?

 

-Stone/ glass (glass would definitely be easier) arrow: take regular "improvised" arrow + stone shard/glass shard + resin. Higher damage and bleed rate

-Stone hatchet:  "Stone knife" + stick + cordage

-Stone spear: "Stone knife" + log + cordage

 

In my opinion, the "crafted" weapons do not need to be stronger, necessarily, melee as a whole needs to be reworked. You shouldn't be able to shrug off a blow with an axe, a stab of a knife, or an arrow from a bow. You should get seriously fucked up with just the initial strike, with additional heavy bleeding on top of that.

 

Like, "death via blood loss" (with all the accompanying conditions: blurry vision, greyscale,loss of conciousness etc) in a minute or so. You have a major artery (carrying oxygenated blood, and under serious pressure) in each limb, in the torso, and alongside the neck. If those arteries get so much as nicked, chances are you are going to die (even with modern medicine available) from blood loss, and lose consciousness long before that. (Seriously. In the thigh, we have an artery called the "femoral artery". In adults, it is about the thickness of the thumb. If it is cut, the blood is under such high pressure that it can be sprayed up to a couple of meters away, and the loss in blood pressure often can cause unconsciousness in seconds, with death in 5 minutes or less. Guess where I would aim?!). The only thing that will save you if those arteries get damaged is a tourniquet, properly applied.

 

Want to avoid all that? Simple: don't get hit. Either strike from ambush, strike from further away, or even just avoid the conflict entirely. Mankind invented ranged weapons (throwing javelins, then the atlatl, then the bow and arrow) for a reason: melee combat is scary, difficult, and dangerous to all involved. Even if you "win", you are likely to get hurt. 

 

Just make "modern" (aka anything made from drop-forged steel, found in houses) tools and weapons more rare, or make the towns and cities absolutely crawling with infected. The towns should be deathtraps-incarnate, not the "all-in-one stores" they are currently. A "risk vs reward" thing: the equipment found in developed areas would be awesome, but you would have to literally risk life and limb to get it, and, more importantly, get out.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Whyherro123

[Fern Baron 128]

how fertilizer tans the leather is beyond me

 

As for the whole "tanned leather" thing, I understand that this is supposed to be a game, but....come on. That isn't how leather is made!

 

My solution: take 4 sticks and bind them together into a "tanning rack". Drop said tanning rack into the environment, then move the raw hides onto the tanning rack from the inventory. Take some "guts" from the animal, then move them "onto" the hide on the rack. Over time (just like gardens/snares) the hides will change into leather. Semi-realistic, and doesn't take too much time

 

It's not fertiliser, it's lime. Lime is used in the tanning process funnily enough called 'liming', that removes hair and fats from the hide. I'm all for a more detailed process of leather preparation like you suggest with the tanning racks and a wait time, but I'm not sure why you would add guts to it? :S You're trying to remove all of that with the lime, not add it. Maybe another step in the process like scudding; removing the fats and hair with a blade?

[irishroy 1347]

As far as I know, I already have seen a model of a water-sack made ouf of tanned leather + leather sewing kit! ;)

[Tatanko 5591]

As far as I know, I already have seen a model of a water-sack made ouf of tanned leather + leather sewing kit! ;)

Here towards the bottom:

 

http://imgur.com/a/KNKzE

 

 

It was one of the leaked game files from 0.53. That solves one problem! I agree with the OP that we also need a way to start a fire as well.

[brazorf 46]

Thank you for this thread and videos mate. I hope this is where dayz is going, one day.

[Draco122 412]

I would so certainly agree, as an individual who also practices bush-craft I do wish that DayZ incorporated more "primitive" methods of survival. Namely in elements which make survival interesting and certainly a more challenging way to play.

 

In terms of weapons, DayZ has the basics of primitive weapons. A Bow and an improvised knife (which I call a Flint Knife) but there are others which can go so much further. For example:

• A Natural Leather Sling and a Slingshot -
• Some forms of light and heavy clubs
• Axes crafted from flint
• Spears

Bows are a slightly different affair, I believe a person should be able to make a bow from ANY type of wood you find in the environment but it would be factors such as the wood you'd find that would make the bow different (in terms of bend, compression and tension) a wood that breaks too easily isn't good for a bow but a wood that is strong and flexible would improve the damage somewhat. For example, you a player should be able to take woods like Oak, Hickory, Maple, Elm andYew or perhaps one of the most well known and perhaps best material for bow making Bamboo, but seeing as how this is an Eastern European terrain I'd doubt you'd find Bamboo that often but I digress.

 

In addition I think players once they've constructed a "basic" bow good for hunting they should be able to make more refined bows which give more power and better ease of use but naturally these take longer to craft (such as playing a longer crafting animation for example of someone shaving off wood on said item). The bow we have now is what most would call a "Self Bow" as it only uses a single piece of wood in its construction but should be able to add on or improve their existing bow through various means. For example:

 

• Self Bow - This is what players start out with, it's weak but its simple to make and materials can be accessed easily.
• Composite Bow - It's the next stage up, it's more powerful but takes longer to craft and requires more materials in its construction.
• Longbow - Its the most powerful but takes the longest to make. Requiring sometime spent crafting in order to make it. While not to the strength of an "English Longbow" which has recorded draw weights of almost 60lbs of force by modern day standards, it could still be reasonably powerful.

The Arrows could be improved further with stone, glass or metal shards. Jagged edged points would lead to more severe wounds (in turn ramping up the bleeding to maximum levels).

 

But besides weapons there do exist other things with primitive survival. Being able to make wool or fur coats with a regular sewing kit. Like taking regular pelts and crafting them more into regular warm clothes such as all Natural vest or sweater made from fur

[Whyherro123 2283]

It's not fertiliser, it's lime. Lime is used in the tanning process funnily enough called 'liming', that removes hair and fats from the hide. I'm all for a more detailed process of leather preparation like you suggest with the tanning racks and a wait time, but I'm not sure why you would add guts to it? :S You're trying to remove all of that with the lime, not add it. Maybe another step in the process like scudding; removing the fats and hair with a blade?

Look up "brain-tanned leather". If you look at the actual "guts" model, you can see that there is a brain in there. The process requires no "artifical" chemicals, just time and effort.

 

I am assuming we already removed all the hair and fat when we skinned  the animal, as the hide looks pretty clean already.

 

The entire process is just too "abstract" for my liking.

[Whyherro123 2283]

I would so certainly agree, as an individual who also practices bush-craft I do wish that DayZ incorporated more "primitive" methods of survival. Namely in elements which make survival interesting and certainly a more challenging way to play.

 

In terms of weapons, DayZ has the basics of primitive weapons. A Bow and an improvised knife (which I call a Flint Knife) but there are others which can go so much further. For example:

• A Natural Leather Sling and a Slingshot -
• Some forms of light and heavy clubs
• Axes crafted from flint
• Spears

Bows are a slightly different affair, I believe a person should be able to make a bow from ANY type of wood you find in the environment but it would be factors such as the wood you'd find that would make the bow different (in terms of bend, compression and tension) a wood that breaks too easily isn't good for a bow but a wood that is strong and flexible would improve the damage somewhat. For example, you a player should be able to take woods like Oak, Hickory, Maple, Elm andYew or perhaps one of the most well known and perhaps best material for bow making Bamboo, but seeing as how this is an Eastern European terrain I'd doubt you'd find Bamboo that often but I digress.

 

In addition I think players once they've constructed a "basic" bow good for hunting they should be able to make more refined bows which give more power and better ease of use but naturally these take longer to craft (such as playing a longer crafting animation for example of someone shaving off wood on said item). The bow we have now is what most would call a "Self Bow" as it only uses a single piece of wood in its construction but should be able to add on or improve their existing bow through various means. For example:

 

• Self Bow - This is what players start out with, it's weak but its simple to make and materials can be accessed easily.
• Composite Bow - It's the next stage up, it's more powerful but takes longer to craft and requires more materials in its construction.
• Longbow - Its the most powerful but takes the longest to make. Requiring sometime spent crafting in order to make it. While not to the strength of an "English Longbow" which has recorded draw weights of almost 60lbs of force by modern day standards, it could still be reasonably powerful.

The Arrows could be improved further with stone, glass or metal shards. Jagged edged points would lead to more severe wounds (in turn ramping up the bleeding to maximum levels).

 

But besides weapons there do exist other things with primitive survival. Being able to make wool or fur coats with a regular sewing kit. Like taking regular pelts and crafting them more into regular warm clothes such as all Natural vest or sweater made from fur

 

I like the melee weapons idea, but I disagree about bows. The "improvised ashwood shortbow" we have in game is not a self-bow. It is instead a "stick-bow", which is far weaker and less accurate, although they can be pretty powerful as well. And stickbows still take time to make.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFTPxK2X0NA

 

The bow in the above video is a stickbow.

 

A more "realistic" progression of bows that could be craftable in-game could be:

 

-Bundle-bow (

) They are really only adequate for small game, but are easy to make, requiring only a couple of sticks and a few minutes

 

-Stick-bow: see above. Requires a stick, a knife, some cordage, and a few minutes of your time

 

-Self-Bow (

) Requires a log, a knife, some cordage and a decent amount of time.

 

Longbows are just a specialized type of self-bow. And actual English/Welsh warbows had draw-weights of up to 210 lbs, not 60. 60 lbs would be a reasonably-powerful self-bow

 

As for arrows, read this thread. http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/215247-quiver-arrows/

[CJFlint 357]

The survival mechanics are def getting there. Pretty cool. I still need to make my self the new leather vest.

 

Currently Im trying to get as used to living off the land as posible, or it least knowing how the mechanics work. Becuase I have a feeling at some point maybe food will become more scarce same with all loot. We will see though. I know loot drops at some point there going to adjust. Then DayZ really will be a survival sim even for more exp players, less off the COD get geared up to die type of play. But who knows really, wait and see, so far so good.

 

I like the idea of having a new way to start fires, used flints or sticks.

Edited February 10, 2015 by CJFlint

[emuthreat 2837]

It's not fertiliser, it's lime. Lime is used in the tanning process funnily enough called 'liming', that removes hair and fats from the hide. I'm all for a more detailed process of leather preparation like you suggest with the tanning racks and a wait time, but I'm not sure why you would add guts to it? :S You're trying to remove all of that with the lime, not add it. Maybe another step in the process like scudding; removing the fats and hair with a blade?

Brains.  You must make a slurry from the animal brains and apply it to the pelt in direct sunlight.

[Fern Baron 128]

Look up "brain-tanned leather". If you look at the actual "guts" model, you can see that there is a brain in there. The process requires no "artifical" chemicals, just time and effort.

 

I am assuming we already removed all the hair and fat when we skinned  the animal, as the hide looks pretty clean already.

 

The entire process is just too "abstract" for my liking.

 

 

Look up "brain-tanned leather". If you look at the actual "guts" model, you can see that there is a brain in there. The process requires no "artifical" chemicals, just time and effort.

 

I am assuming we already removed all the hair and fat when we skinned  the animal, as the hide looks pretty clean already.

 

The entire process is just too "abstract" for my liking.

 

 

Brains.  You must make a slurry from the animal brains and apply it to the pelt in direct sunlight.

 

Hey that's pretty interesting and equally gross, would fit quite well in the game I think.

[Jex 1104]

So, with the implementation of "tanned leather clothing" in the last patch, we now have the ability to make almost everything we need to survive without actually going into town. We have clothing (need leather and fertilizer: how fertilizer tans the leather is beyond me), a knife, and a ranged weapon (the bow, which is still both too shitty to actually use, and too "good" for what it is made from)

 

Key word: ALMOST

 

Have they added alternative to rope now or are animals just standing still so you can walk up and kill them?

[Whyherro123 2283]

Have they added alternative to rope now or are animals just standing still so you can walk up and kill them?

You can use "guts" from slain animals, but that leaves the question of just how you kill the animal....

 

I just want some grass 2-ply-twist cordage  :(

 

Also, I was taking a look at some of the plants that grow around Chernarus, and I have seen several that are useful in survival

 

Cattail: aka survivors best friend. My personal favorite. Why these can be found growing in brackish water along the coast, I don't know  <_< , but whatever. These are edible, burnable,weavable, etc 

http://prepforshtf.com/survival-uses-for-cattails/#.VN7BqPnF9yw

 

Numerous different trees: can confirm birch, oak (maybe different types?) different conifers, willows, of course ash, etc. Birch is STUPID useful: the  outer bark contains oils that will catch fire even when the bark is soaked, as well as being water-proof, the green inner bark can be eaten, the sap is DELICIOUS, and a fungus that grows on birch trees (chaga) sucks up the oils in the bark and is excellent as a firestarter, etc. Oak is just generally "good" wood: for tool handles, for burning, etc. Pines provide resins for tool-making and water-proofing, the needles are high in Vitamin C (prevent scurvy, lads!), boughs make great insulation, and start fires easily. Willow branches are great for making baskets, as well as providing a natural pain-reliever. (http://willowhavenoutdoor.com/featured-wilderness-survival-blog-entries/5-trees-every-survivalist-should-know-why/)

 

Various fungi: different mushrooms are edible, can function as an antiseptic/antimicrobial, or serve as firestarters or "coal-transporters" by smoldering instead of burning. KNOW YOUR MUSHROOMS BEFORE EATING. 

 

http://www.survival-manual.com/edible-plants/mushrooms.php

 

As a matter of fact, that whole site in the last link gives good info on edible plants.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Whyherro123

[Jex 1104]

You can use "guts" from slain animals, but that leaves the question of just how you kill the animal....

 

I just want some grass 2-ply-twist cordage  :(

 

Also, I was taking a look at some of the plants that grow around Chernarus, and I have seen several that are useful in survival

 

Cattail: aka survivors best friend. My personal favorite. Why these can be found growing in brackish water along the coast, I don't know  <_< , but whatever. These are edible, burnable,weavable, etc 

http://prepforshtf.com/survival-uses-for-cattails/#.VN7BqPnF9yw

 

Numerous different trees: can confirm birch, oak (maybe different types?) different conifers, willows, of course ash, etc. Birch is STUPID useful: the  outer bark contains oils that will catch fire even when the bark is soaked, as well as being water-proof, the green inner bark can be eaten, the sap is DELICIOUS, and a fungus that grows on birch trees (chaga) sucks up the oils in the bark and is excellent as a firestarter, etc. Oak is just generally "good" wood: for tool handles, for burning, etc. Pines provide resins for tool-making and water-proofing, the needles are high in Vitamin C (prevent scurvy, lads!), boughs make great insulation, and start fires easily. Willow branches are great for making baskets, as well as providing a natural pain-reliever. (http://willowhavenoutdoor.com/featured-wilderness-survival-blog-entries/5-trees-every-survivalist-should-know-why/)

 

Various fungi: different mushrooms are edible, can function as an antiseptic/antimicrobial, or serve as firestarters or "coal-transporters" by smoldering instead of burning. KNOW YOUR MUSHROOMS BEFORE EATING. 

 

http://www.survival-manual.com/edible-plants/mushrooms.php

 

As a matter of fact, that whole site in the last link gives good info on edible plants.

 

Just remember to make a note of Whyherro's address when the shit hits the fan, folks ;)

[Whyherro123 2283]

Just remember to make a note of Whyherro's address when the shit hits the fan, folks ;)

 

This is why I want canned food spawns to be severely cut back. There is other food available, whether animal or plant based. It just actually requires......well, WORK.

 

To me, the game should be about "surviving" on a whole, not "how fast can I get my healthy buff and a gun so I can go shoot people".

[Jex 1104]

This is why I want canned food spawns to be severely cut back. There is other food available, whether animal or plant based. It just actually requires......well, WORK.

 

To me, the game should be about "surviving" on a whole, not "how fast can I get my healthy buff and a gun so I can go shoot people".

 

I was running over to the NE airfield as my friends were close by. I was at the military base south of the NW airfield so we're talking on teamspeak about the stupid fireplace kit because we couldn't get it working and I thought it was bugged out as we tried sticks and wood and couldn't get it to work at all. So as we're talking I spot movement and sky-lining itself on a hilltop in full profile was a red deer, looked magnificent.

 

10 minutes later and they worked out how to light the fire and of course I had no meat. It turns out putting the fireplace on the side of a hill doesn't work. However, when your mate just collapsed from starvation and it laying on the hillside and you've force fed and watered him, you need a fire to warm him up.

 

Anyway, 5 minutes later and I came across a spot I recognised that months ago my friend and I found and it had 6 cows in the field. Was happy to see another 6 cows milling around there as well so I might have an almost guaranteed spot for meat for now - I hope the devs change it because I don't want one spot where I know I can always find cows.

[sneakydudes 278]

I ready played skyrim, I think that's the game your looking for isn't it?

Just mod it up with zombies and you have it Skyz

[Whyherro123 2283]

I ready played skyrim, I think that's the game your looking for isn't it?

Just mod it up with zombies and you have it Skyz

I do, in fact, play Skyrim, modded to shit with all the survival and realism mods I could find (Frostfall, Hunterborn, Realistic Needs and Diseases, Realistic Archery, SkyRe, Combat Duel 7, etc). 

 

I don't play Day Z for the zombies, I play it for the survival. Something that, even with all that has been added, is still sadly lacking from Day Z.

[sneakydudes 278]

I do not want this game to go the route some ask, knights of the round table, shooting bows at each other. Its starting to sound childish some of the 1pp vrs 3pp garbage.

If we make items then so be it, but this still is set in a normal world that has guns, ammo and some military items. Sure some of them would be scarce to find.

 

But that's my opinion and I think it will be one solid game once it gets there.

 

BTW gas goes stale too, so everything in the game is to immerse us in what is available. Not what it might be like 10-20 years down the road when all guns run out of ammo and we stick the little piggy's with sticks and stones.

 

I think people are reading into some survival show too much.

 

Just saying some of the ideas are great and all but is it what the dev.'s had planed to remove all normal 20th century items and we stay with sticks and stones.

[Fern Baron 128]

You're jumping to the extreme end of the spectrum. This thread is merely suggesting features and mechanics that could be added in to support the playstyle of a wilderness survivor. I don't think I once seen anyone suggest removal of modern day items in this thread.

[Bruderlos 17]

Should be possible to take a piece of metal + tape + a stone for sharpening and craft a knife/machete/sword. I wonder why there aren't any grindstones in the rural areas anyway. 

I would expect that people who own an axe would have some kind of grindstone, but then they got canned food and no canopeners...

A knife + tape/rope would make a spear, some nails + baseball bat = spiked club and so on. I would love to see much more of that instead of more and more military grade firearms.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Bruderlos

[blowurselfup 54]

I can start a fire by rubbing two ice cubes together so forget that bow drill B)

 

Wouldn't there be plenty of cigarette lighters laying around? Those eastern Europeans really know how to smoke.