How is games like Planetside 2 able to have thousands of players at the same time?

[d.walker43 196]

Hi guys, after playing some of my other games I wondered something. How come games like Planetside 2 can have thousands of players in the same server, while Dayz can only have 40 without serious performance issues? Is it possible to use these optimizations/technology in DayZ, making it so we could have more players, zombies, animals, etc? obviously we would only want like 80-100 players, but could this be used to increase zombie/animal's numbers? Simply wondering. Thanks.

[hellcat420 212]

because they are not built on the same engine. planetside 2 is built on a mmo engine, dayz is not.

[surf_polar 110]

Planetside has not:

 

- NPC enemies scattered across the map

- As detailed a map as Dayz has with that amount of foliage, towns etc

- thousands of items scattered across the map that have to be rendered and put into video memory

 

Finally, it is built on a different engine most probably tailored directly for that game, while DayZ (atleast now) still uses a bastard child of an engine not particulary suited for that type of game.

[hellcat420 212]

Planetside has not:

 

- NPC enemies scattered across the map

- As detailed a map as Dayz has with that amount of foliage, towns etc

- thousands of items scattered across the map that have to be rendered and put into video memory

 

Finally, it is built on a different engine most probably tailored directly for that game, while DayZ (atleast now) still uses a bastard child of an engine not particulary suited for that type of game.

planetside 2 is built on the forge engine or w/e. its not specifically built for planetside 2, planetside 2 was just the first game they created on that engine. the new everquest games are also built on that same engine, as well as h1z1.

[Bororm 1156]

There's a ton more stuff going on in DayZ than there is in planetside 2.  Also, planetside 2 is still broken up into zones (continents) and does a ton of culling (I think that'd be the proper term).  There was a huge problem when I used to play that you couldn't even see the majority of people even like 100m in front of you in large battles, because they just wouldn't render in to save on performance.  I dunno if that's still the case.

 

They're just totally different types of games, DayZ isn't a true mmo, I think it's kinda dumb that it's labelled as such on steam.

[d.walker43 196]

Ok, so what im getting out of this is that mmo engines can support tons of players better. I guess im confused about this then. Why wouldn't not only Dayz, but all games use an engine like this if it has the capability to support thousands of players at once, and in Planetside's case, pretty decent graphics too? Im not much of an expert when it comes to game development, so if someone could explain this in layman's terms that would be great. Thank you.

[HIHBGaming 14]

The DayZ engine is not complete nor is it even optimized to it's full potential. This is why it runs the way it does.

[Briljin 102]

Ok, so what im getting out of this is that mmo engines can support tons of players better. I guess im confused about this then. 

 

MMOs also tend to break their game up and split the load up over several servers.   For example the classic WOW has server farms for the each of the various continents and still others for instances.  So while they seem to have even more going on that Dayz, they distribute the load in a more efficient manner.  

[tuthmes 49]

Gotta say I LOVE DayZ and I LOVE me some Planetside II as well, and if the Forgelight Engine was a women well....ya... =P {Its Just Soooooo Pretty)

 

Keep in mind Planetside II is a SONY product, Sony is a huge company! and I mean HUGE, tons of cash to flow into products.

 

I have My Hooks into Landmark and Looking hard at Everquest Next as well as H1Z1...

 

That said, DayZ could be that.... However, you would need a HUGE amount of funding for such a game, like SOE type funding.. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ + Man/women power (lots and lots and even more lots of people)

 

DayZ is a Fun as hell game to play, with a great idea. I support it through my money as well as my voice.

 

and I hope one day This Game will be THE GO TO GAME for THE Survival / Zombie experience..

 

My 2 cents anyway

 

TuT

[Camisado2 83]

Ok, so what im getting out of this is that mmo engines can support tons of players better. I guess im confused about this then. Why wouldn't not only Dayz, but all games use an engine like this if it has the capability to support thousands of players at once, and in Planetside's case, pretty decent graphics too? Im not much of an expert when it comes to game development, so if someone could explain this in layman's terms that would be great. Thank you.

First of all, not all games are mmo games. So I'm glad most games arent made from mmo engines. Could you imagine Battlefield 4 made on the WoW engine?

Secondly, graphics engines are made by different companies. To use someone else's means shelling out money.

Thirdly, that engine might not allow you to do everything you want it to do.

Lastly, DayZ was an Arma mod, so it only made sense to make it with an Arma engine

[captain_finnish 134]

dont worry soon H1Z1 will be out, and then none of this SA-fail will matter.

cuz it'll be forgotten about within months and then people wont talk about SA anymore...

Troll much? First of all H1Z1 is free to play and it will probably never be as Hardcore game as DayZ is. To me H1Z1 and DayZ are very different games. Also H1Z1 doesnt have DeeZ beans

[byrgesen 1341]

dont worry soon H1Z1 will be out, and then none of this SA-fail will matter.

 

cuz it'll be forgotten about within months and then people wont talk about SA anymore...

 

Correction, the casual crowd, who wants insta-action will not talk about DayZ anymore.

The rest of us will still be here ;)

 

 

@OP

One of the reasons a game such as Planet Side 2 can run with so many players, is because they arent being rendered all the time. 

Bororm touched this subject, its a well knows "tactic" in MMO's and is also used in Rift and Guild Wars 2.

 

In DayZ (at the moment) everything is being rendered, and i mean everything. The small rock 2 km away behind 10 houses is being rendered. The fireaxe inside the firestation in the middle of electro is being rendered.

When they start work on the new renderer and disconnecting the old one from the simulation, we will see a huge improvement.

Bohemia will adopt the "culling" technic aswell, most likely not for players, but for loot and objects on the map, but especially loot.

This will give your computer so much more "elbow room", because it wont have to render anything unless you are close to it.

At the moment, this is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, performance hog in the entire game.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Correction, the casual crowd, who wants insta-action will not talk about DayZ anymore.

The rest of us will still be here ;)

 

 

@OP

One of the reasons a game such as Planet Side 2 can run with so many players, is because they arent being rendered all the time. 

Bororm touched this subject, its a well knows "tactic" in MMO's and is also used in Rift and Guild Wars 2.

 

In DayZ (at the moment) everything is being rendered, and i mean everything. The small rock 2 km away behind 10 houses is being rendered. The fireaxe inside the firestation in the middle of electro is being rendered.

When they start work on the new renderer and disconnecting the old one from the simulation, we will see a huge improvement.

Bohemia will adopt the "culling" technic aswell, most likely not for players, but for loot and objects on the map, but especially loot.

This will give your computer so much more "elbow room", because it wont have to render anything unless you are close to it.

At the moment, this is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, performance hog in the entire game.

Not only they aren't being rendered but the render distance is atrocious.  I think it's about 300 meters max.

[byrgesen 1341]

Not only they aren't being rendered but the render distance is atrocious.  I think it's about 300 meters max.

 

Yeh, sorry forgot about that aswell :)

I believe the default render distance in DayZ is around 1600 meters, but the engine supports many km render distance.

[boneboys 7988]

This question is a lot broader than just  DayZ & PS and should be in Off-Topic, I'll leave it for the time being but will move if deemed apt.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Ok, so what im getting out of this is that mmo engines can support tons of players better. I guess im confused about this then. Why wouldn't not only Dayz, but all games use an engine like this if it has the capability to support thousands of players at once, and in Planetside's case, pretty decent graphics too? Im not much of an expert when it comes to game development, so if someone could explain this in layman's terms that would be great. Thank you.

 

Not quite.  People simplify the 'it's an MMO engine' part for brevity (there is no such thing as an FPS or MMO engine, strictly speaking, it's the implementation of mechanics and concepts that allow it to be labelled and applied as such).  Because in Planetside, there are more players, and the travel time is so much faster, they drop out certain things like blanket-foliage, items and such.  From what I see in planetside it's mostly just a single texture 'streched' over large distances, with the occasional outpost, tree or rock. Geometry is basic also.

My less short explanation in part:

Look at games like WoW (i mean more vanilla, dont know where the new GFX update has taken it).  You would get on the flight-path beasts and their textures would slip around on their bodies (look particularly at moving parts such as flapping wings or waving arms) because it was just a blanket texture applied to the object, and it would stretch as the object flexed or dilated/expanded.  The texture is not re-compressed to the new volume or shape that it morphs to, so it's just like if you put a picture in paint, drag a crop-box around it and stretch it to any dimension greater than it was (ensuring that you don't follow the line of proportionality eg: A4-A3-A2 in which the proportions remain constant and the object 'scales' near perfectly).  They also get away with it in WoW as an example still, by reducing the pixel count and incorporating a 'cartooney' art style that is both pleasing/attractive and also suits the low-fidelity low-load setup.

 

Pacing and Focus divert your attention from the environment for the most part (for newer games).  MMOs have a constant drive, generally fast travel times between points which are focussed, while DayZ instead specialises in slower gameplay, and more focus on the 'between areas' than the actual areas and objectives themselves at the moment.  There's tonnes of technical mumbo-jumbo under the hood that i don't know about, but for the most part it's a balancing act between visual fidelity, gameplay, player gameplay focus and the detail that is associated with it.

 

Games like Titanfall however are a bit different.  I believe it uses a ramped up version of the source engine to render.  They cut corners by upping the fidelity of effects and textures etc, (compared to CS1.6) propping in AI fodder to make it feel like a BF-esque game (the AI is basic and doesn't take up much resource) but slashed away at the max player base.

To delve into risky analogy territory again, it's like balancing aesthetics and aero-dynamics/weight/power of a car or vehicle.  With a given set of resources, you've got to take from one to give to the other, or beg for more money and throw it at your RnD department in the hopes of scraping a few extra points in whatever category you're looking to improve.

 

These examples are all very specific, but it's the implementation of all these 'minor cheats' together that either aren't picked up(under hood/out of sight), or are overlooked due to gameplay focus(eg: pacing - too busy looking for people to kill/avoiding people who are after me), or taken for granted (eg again: this planet doesn't have a lot of trees but i like the hue of the sky and the geometry to fight over) which allow the game to go ahead and run without large amounts of pre-planning or building on the fly.

Edited September 9, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[Cpanther 221]

That's an easy one....Planetside 2 uses textures that repeats over and over again, that allows for a bigger map with more players... but it makes everything look the same. DayZ uses a lot more 3D models and textures, which is why it looks more "realistic" with more different looking areas.

 

Wait for H1Z1 and you typical MMO set up.. and you will see the difference.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Cpanther

[d.walker43 196]

Alright guys, thanks for the answers. I think I kind of understand now. Guess we'll just have to wait for optimizations to come.

 

 

 

This question is a lot broader than just  DayZ & PS and should be in Off-Topic, I'll leave it for the time being but will move if deemed apt.

Alright, sorry I figured that since I was talking about Dayz still it should go here, if you want to move it that's fine.

[kichilron 8550]

Troll much?

 

 

Don't feed the troll.

 

Topic cleaned. Non-constructive shitposting about how Planetside 2 is so much better than DayZ is not tolerated.

[BlinkingRiki182 54]

Don't feed the troll.

 

Topic cleaned. Non-constructive shitposting about how Planetside 2 is so much better than DayZ is not tolerated.

 

You are exaggerating. He was simply asking a question, my god you people are getting ridiculous!

[agentneo 337]

the engine in day z is very old and clunky..Even the 'optimisied' versions of Arma 2 and Arma 3 still run very low FPS on great rigs..

 

There is a problem with loading too much of the map at once that I don't understand. The textures have dramatic pop in issues. Stand one side of Novo square and look at the Town Hall opposite, at just 100-200m the two sides of the main wall and de textured and blocky while the central piece which is 2metres nearer has its texture popped in..If the game is not even loading the high res textures until you zoom in/move near why is performance so bad in towns? Even Balota (small town with tents) drops me and my mates down to sub 40fps... This isn't really acceptable as we move towards 1080p at 60FPS been the 'standard' for First person shooters. Having the frames drop in towns is game breaking in a competitive shoot out.

I don't see how optimising will fix this- even Arma 2 / 3 heavily optimised have the same issue. Towns in this engine kill FPS.

[kichilron 8550]

You are exaggerating. He was simply asking a question, my god you people are getting ridiculous!

 

 

You obviously do not seem to understand what this is related to, as the person whose comment was hidden didn't ask a single question and wasn't the one that I meant in my post.

[BlinkingRiki182 54]

You obviously do not seem to understand what this is related to, as the person whose comment was hidden didn't ask a single question and wasn't the one that I meant in my post.

 

I see, I'm sorry for the missunderstanding - it seemed to me that you meant to call the OP troll and this invoked my reaction :)

[TiggyPooh 134]

As previously explained in short, repeating low resolution textures and low polygon models with low render distances.

And as previously said, developers go to lengths to optimize stuff and cut corners, like what you see on your viewer is not always what is running on the server, i.e. you can't see your own character in 1st person view, you have no legs and body, you are just a pair of arms and hands holding a weapon.

PS2 is free to play and you can test this by using the infiltrator class and grabbing a sniper rifle.

No matter how far you set your view distance, even to 4000 meters, other player models will just disappear at around 300-500 meters.

Now to say that PS2 works with 1000's of players is very far fetched. They can have 1000's of players on their servers, but they will not render and they don't have a physical shape, i.e. you cannot bump into each other.

Then let's not forget that even with a high end PC's you will have a huge FPS drop if not even that the game will crash during the larger battles and everyone I know has to reduce their settings, even with high end GPU's and CPU's to be able to play this game competitive. 

[anderswhk 23]

I never understood exactly why the Arma engines run poorly quite often, even on great PC's. Especially in towns and inside buildings, i have yet to find out what it is. One minute i have what looks like 50-60 fps, and then next it gets reduced to 5-10, just looking in a certain direction, and not necessarily at a huge drawdistance/large town etc. I even tried high fps cfg's, with all settings on the lowest. Helps a little, but not as much as you would want.

 

I mean even Arma 2 doesn't run great. Modern PC's should absolutely kill that game, but they don't. I tried playing DayZ Overpoch. My god, being in any sort of town reduces my game to a slideshow.

 

Anyone got any tips and tricks to getting this game to run better while inside towns? I tried messing with configs and settings. Maybe someone knows something i dont? My specs aren't great, but this was a high end rig in 2010. Should be OK to run this game, and i am for the most part. But getting into firefights in towns is just not viable for me, comming from games like CS 1.6 where you roll with 100 fps at all times.

 

My specs:

 

i7 950 @ 3.0 ghz

EVGA GTX 580 SC 1,5 GB

12 GB RAM

 

Would running the game from my SSD i have for windows help anything? I know it just makes things load faster, and doesnt really affect performance, but maybe it could help with something other than loadtimes.

Edited September 13, 2014 by anderswhk