First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Heiduk 265]

TPV makes zombies less dangerous since unlike other players they can't exploit it. Zombies and loot spawn from the same area so less dangerous zombies mean more accessible loot. While some people would PvP for no reason at all, some players wouldn't except they get bored. Either camp usually needs to gear up before they can PvP and start dropping into the KoS ideology. Since it is so easy to loot, and it takes less time with TPV it actually leads to people being ready to PvP sooner after dying and leads to "I have all the stuff I need, I don't need another tent full of beans... I guess I'll go try and shoot some people." 

 

My experiences, and gut tell me that this is an accurate assessment, however it would be really interesting to have some actual data on it. If I was Bohemia trying to solve this issue the first thing I would do once the game was minimally playable was set up identical instrumented 1st & 3rd person servers and start asking questions like:

 

What is the typical life expectancy?

What is the murder rate?

What is the Zombie kill rate?

What is the typical player loadout?

What is the typical distance between living players?

How much time do players spend in town?

How much time do players spend in each stance?

How much time do players spend moving at each speed?

Where do players spend the most time?

When do players typically visit each location?

 

I guarantee the answers will be different. Having some data on what those differences are would be really useful in identifying what the true impacts of 3rd person are, something we can only guess at right now.

 

Signed, another Carebear 1st person lover.

[Wayze 549]

My experiences, and gut tell me that this is an accurate assessment, however it would be really interesting to have some actual data on it. If I was Bohemia trying to solve this issue the first thing I would do once the game was minimally playable was set up identical instrumented 1st & 3rd person servers and start asking questions like:

 

What is the typical life expectancy?

What is the murder rate?

What is the Zombie kill rate?

What is the typical player loadout?

What is the typical distance between living players?

How much time do players spend in town?

How much time do players spend in each stance?

How much time do players spend moving at each speed?

Where do players spend the most time?

When do players typically visit each location?

 

I guarantee the answers will be different. Having some data on what those differences are would be really useful in identifying what the true impacts of 3rd person are, something we can only guess at right now.

 

Signed, another Carebear 1st person lover.

No post in the last view weeks has deserved beans like that one did! This is the best and most constructive idea I have ever heard in this forum. Guys, it is our duty that Dean Rocket Hall gets to read that!

 

I mean it, it is our duty if we want the game to be good!

 

 

So, how are we going to do this? We could spam the shit out of reddit, at some point he would read it. We also could spam the forum and fill it with this massage, I don't give a f*ck if I get banned. If we do all we can do Dean will read that and I am pretty sure he would like that idea.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Wayze

[Ken Bean 175]

My experiences, and gut tell me that this is an accurate assessment, however it would be really interesting to have some actual data on it. If I was Bohemia trying to solve this issue the first thing I would do once the game was minimally playable was set up identical instrumented 1st & 3rd person servers and start asking questions like:

 

What is the typical life expectancy?

What is the murder rate?

What is the Zombie kill rate?

What is the typical player loadout?

What is the typical distance between living players?

How much time do players spend in town?

How much time do players spend in each stance?

How much time do players spend moving at each speed?

Where do players spend the most time?

When do players typically visit each location?

 

I guarantee the answers will be different. Having some data on what those differences are would be really useful in identifying what the true impacts of 3rd person are, something we can only guess at right now.

 

Signed, another Carebear 1st person lover.

First I gave thumbs up, then I rethought. Although it might be nice to have actual data, most of this stats in this game are inherently meaningless. At least for the player. I don't know what average data says. You have a very wide spread behavior. From running through towns to going prone all the way through woods.

There also are power looter and dudes who dont do anything but looking for tents at the borders of the map. Not to forget camper with a backpack full of rabbit meat. And most of the time, all are switching the view. Even those 1st person purists do it, all the time. (A fact which has been figured out in this thread here)

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Wayze 549]

First I gave thumbs up, then I rethought. Although it might be nice to have actual data, most of this stats in this game are inherently meaningless. At least for the player. I don't know what average data says. You have a very wide spread behavior. From running through towns to going prone all the way through woods.

I don't think you get how statistics work and what they are actually for. For example:

What is the typical life expectancy?

First person: 10 minutes

Third person: 20 hours

 

Yes I exaggerated that, but you get the point don't you?

 

 

Ok, if you don't:

What is the Zombie kill rate?

First person: 10 per hour

Third person: 1 per hour

 

What is the typical life expectancy?

First person: 30 minutes

Third person: 2 hours

 

What is the murder rate?

First person: 2 per hour

Third person: 10 per hour

 

 

If there were results like that, it would mean that the third person view would change a core element of the game. And if Dean would see this statistics, you could bet for what he would decide.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Wayze

[Ken Bean 175]

I don't think you get how statistics work and what they are actually for. For example:

What is the typical life expectancy?

First person: 10 minutes

Third person: 20 hours

 

Yes I exaggerated that, but you get the point don't you?

1st person is not more difficult. It's just broken and weird. If you are a bit skilled, you easily can survive 20 hours.

But the point is not how long they are surviving, the point is WHY.

Why is this the point? Because 1st person player just might be tactical not that keen? Because they permanently lose orientation in buildings? Because they die more often killed by doors and falling from a roof? Because they dont see when they are bleeding?

Because their attention span goes downhill after running around 1 hour in super immersive mode?

Because 3rd person is not the only game feature they are not able to master? :D

This data says not much on the issue. I think the playstile can not so easy categorised in 1st or 3rd person. They are actually not that meaningful as you 1st person dudes may think. ;)

It also doesn't say 3rd person player are all fat, btw.

Its just one preference under many, no definetive faith or whatnot.

You made a big story of it, way too big.

And whats, btw, with the data "numbers of 1st person and 3rd person server"?

Clearly says "3rd person rocks", doesn't it?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[delta5 237]

I have no respect for people that do combat in 3rd person. 

[Wayze 549]

1st person is not more difficult. It's just broken and weird. If you are a bit skilled, you easily can survive 20 hours.

But the point is not how long they are surviving, the point is WHY.

Why is this the point? Because 1st person player just might be tactical not that keen? Because they permanently lose orientation in buildings? Because they die more often killed by doors and falling from a roof? Because they dont see when they are bleeding?

Because their attention span goes downhill after running around 1 hour in super immersive mode?

Because 3rd person is not the only game feature they are not able to master? :D

This data says not much on the issue. I think the playstile can not so easy categorised in 1st or 3rd person. They are actually not that meaningful as you 1st person dudes may think. ;)

It also doesn't say 3rd person player are all fat, btw.

Its just one preference under many, no definetive faith or whatnot.

YOu made it big, way too big.

1st person is more difficult. It is not broken and it is not weird. If you are skilled you can survive forever, which is not the average time.

 

The point is totally irrelevant, if the statistics tell us that it is how it is we know it is because of the third person view.

 

Why is this not the point? Because there is no tactic in third person shooters, it is the most simply gameplay which a shooter can be: Observe and wait. The reasons why you survive longer are like I said irrelevent, the fact that you actually do survive longer is enough.

 

This data says really much about the issue. Actually it tells us there is a issue. Yes, playstyle can be very easily categorised into 1st or 3rd person. Yes they are very meaningful and they change the core gameplay of the game.

 

It does say that third person player do have a way more easier job in surviving, which means reaching end game sooner, which means the game gets boring sooner.

 

It is one preference under many, like 50.000 AS50s per m² is also a preference. As you can see the majority of the players actually prefer these 50.000 AS50s per m². Does that mean the standalone should have 50.000 AS50s per m²?

 

You made it small, way to small.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Wayze

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

If people want to host them I see no reason for them not being allowed, both views are still in the SA build as we've seen, and I've seen nothing from Rocket to suggest otherwise.

 

If you could supply me with a quote that I may have missed that says otherwise I would appreciate it, thanks.

 

It was specifically first person only servers I was talking about. I don't see anywhere saying they will be in the standalone.

 

 

 

The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it.

 

 

 

I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

 

I get the feeling that Rocket shares my opinion in that there's no point in having first person only servers because it will end up exactly like the MOD, where despite lots of people wanting them, they sit empty.

 

 

Edit: But, I'm not disappointed in this as a first person player. If the worst of the offenses can be removed, I wouldn't mind sharing my servers with third person players, because at that point it would almost be fair in terms of advantages.

Edited August 30, 2013 by bad_mojo

[dgeesio 1034]

why is the thread still open ?

 

just not solving anything and all people interested in dayz will see is many arguing bickering . hardly great promotion.

 

whats been said has been said in the million pgs already and is not doing anything good. decisions would of been made already. just stop this stupidness and lets move on.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Nobody is forcing you to click on it. Let us have our discussion. This thread is the only thing on these forums I'm remotely interested in.

[dsi24 227]

Time for your pagely dose of hard facts, numbers, and logic. You can't ignore it forever :)
 
 

Sir,

No. Just, no.

Dslyecxi video has around 30.000 views and 3.000 likes/dislikes. That means every 10 person will approve that or deny "on paper". Since there are 2949 likes and 44 dislikes, that means ~99% of viewers would agree with him and would approve playing in 1st person. Poll: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/ is just another indicator of that and another poll made by SoulHunter I believe: https://docs.google....j2Sil4/viewform that confirms what majority is thinking about that. Looking into DayZ Commander and see there are mostly 3rd person server is wrong since admins and players are just following herd instinct, which went in wrong direction not aware of the issue.

I completely understand, that we are looking for alternatives around 3rd person view and how we could improve it. But we are looking forward to SA and fresh start. And here is reexaminations for all of us, and option for not to repeat the "mistake". If someone would like to have 100+ choppers and 900+ vehicles, 3rd person on, there will always be mod to do that.

Again, we have opportunity to make hard core survival game which was meant to be from the scratch.

Oh god if there would be M4A1 CCO SD in Amnesia, or just one server with that option I would finish the game, but I was to afraid to do that. But it's not. It does not exist and that is what makes game unique. And that should be DayZ.

Dean "Rocket" Hall:

"I think the best thing that could happen is if DayZ fell off a little," ... "I think if DayZ has a soft launch it's the best thing that can happen to it. Because then a few people will play it and say 'this is cool, I want to play it with my friends.' The best thing that could happen."

"If most of the community who maybe thought DayZ was cool a year ago and now they think it's lame, I think that's probably good for us. We don't need to sell that many copies to break-even. We want to be a hardcore game and I think if we make a good game people will come back."

When you release something, you are not aware of all the exploit that would come. And if you don't fix that, game become lame as it is now. And to make people come back, 1st person is right step in that direction. I've learned, that on this forum you need to go into details of the detiles. Even if people know what you want to say, or you lack of englis knowledge to explain so well, they will still dig in to right there, where you didn't explain enough, even if that was self explaining.

TL;DR

Hi there 3rdy. Don't read that.



  Edited August 30, 2013 by Dsi1

[Wayze 549]

why is the thread still open ?

 

just not solving anything and all people interested in dayz will see is many arguing bickering . hardly great promotion.

 

whats been said has been said in the million pgs already and is not doing anything good. decisions would of been made already. just stop this stupidness and lets move on.

Hey, one of the best ideas since DayZ itself was invented like 2 hours ago, so stop this stupidness and move on!

Edited August 30, 2013 by Wayze

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

This really is a glass half empty/half full argument.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

derp

Ik that the schools are mostly open. But that still does not give you the right to insult people just for them discussing a matter.

 

It is also not your job to judge moderators'/admins' task. Just report the thread if you wanna see it closed that much.

 

As for being On-Topic, it is great to see that almost everyone wants to see S.A a FPV only experience. Discussion is the key of a community. Lets roll on!

Edited August 30, 2013 by SoulHunter

[dsi24 227]

Ok this forum has the worst text editor I've ever used, the code only version isn't actually just using my code and is adding its own shit :/

 

Maybe my text won't get quote marks here???

 

TPV doesn't increase or decrease KoS/Carebears. It polarizes the game to the point where its DM vs Never Fight. Think about it: TPV allows you to have perfect ambushes, it makes killing easy. It also allows you to have perfect observation, it makes being safe easy.

Of course, since third person is asymmetric in how it gives information the carebears get the short end of the stick, they can't tell when a perfect ambush is waiting for them, even with perfect observation.

And so third person creates two distinct groups, those who treat the game like glorified DM and those who treat the game like its single-player vs zombies.

With FPV only, DM would be less common because you can never guarantee getting a kill, an observant enough player could spot your ambush or a better CQB player could beat your door camp with a good entry. Both of which are impossible to do in a TPV-allowed environment because perfect observation can never see perfect invisibility, but perfect observation (like sitting beside a door looking outside with TPV) sure as hell can see anyone approaching. Loners would be forced to interact with other players because they could accidentally run into someone since they lack perfect observation.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Dsi1

[wild_man 4442]

is simple way to explain why third person is make game shit for first person player

look this settings for difficult to easy

 

hardcore guys

first person only

no crosshair

no waypoint B)

 

normal guys

first person only

crosshair

waypoint ;)

 

easy guys

first and third person

crosshair

waypoint :rolleyes:

 

pussy guys

first and third person

crosshair

waypoint

nametags

player show on map :D

 

if you are 3rd person guy but you are not pussy guy how you feel if some guys say we make 'pussy guy' setting for all guys? :huh:

we don't make debate for nametag because 99% guys know is bullshit for pussy guys,

 

you accept argue for nametags 'is fun'??? or 'is for all guys so is fair this shit'???

 

3rd person is same for first person guys, is like some pussy shit :huh: we don't want this to affect our game please :thumbsup:

Edited August 30, 2013 by KoS

[SmashT 10907]

I thought it was still a bit of an open question as to whether anyone will be able to host their own servers or if they will all be run by Bohemia?

 

You can host your own server, all servers will connect to the central hive.

[terrvik 2409]

You can host your own server, all servers will connect to the central hive.

 

So will there be different hives for different settings or will they all connect to the same?

[wild_man 4442]

So will there be different hives for different settings ...?

please yes for this

Edited August 30, 2013 by KoS

[SMLE 39]

 

 

Join us SmashT, your comrades have already forsaken you. 1st person is the one true path, brother. We will forgive your past sins and wicked ways if only you repent and swear undieing loyalty to the 1st view, the only True view.

Many a true word is spoken in jest :)

cheers

[SMLE 39]

But that won't happen. Why would you not buy a game just because you can't use 3rd person? That's just ridiculous - talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It very well may happen , would you still be so interested if it was (god forbid) restricted to 3rdp only ?

cheers

[Heiduk 265]

Although it might be nice to have actual data, most of this stats in this game are inherently meaningless. At least for the player.

They may be meaningless to the player, and the player doesn't need to know them, but they are far from meaningless to the people who are designing the game. And their design decisions directly influence our in-game experiences.

 

I don't know what average data says. You have a very wide spread behavior.

You may not have noticed, but in my post you are replying to I was very careful to say typical rather than average. As you sort of imply, knowing how much variability there is around the average is just as important as knowing the average. If the average life expectancy is 1 hour +/- 5 minutes that tells you something completely different than if it is 1 hour +/- 30 minutes, and it tells you something else entirely if 95% of players are dead within 20 minutes, but there is one guy who has been camped out west of Kamenka for the last 250 days.

Note Rocket isn't stupid and I'm sure he has already thought about how to answer all of the questions I posted. In fact, I seem to recall that one of the reasons he didn't want to start allowing private hives last fall was because of all the data mining they were doing on the public hive.

[Heiduk 265]

Many a true word is spoken in jest :)

I thought you would like that one. We can't take ourselves to seriously now can we.

[SMLE 39]

Well, I'm all talked out for now.  Please accept this in the spirit it is intended to lighten the mood,  Episode 1:

 

As I said before blue names use jokes as a tool to calm things down , the above is not such a case , its belittleing people on these forums and not what I would expect from a Blue name who takes their position seriously .

cheers

[SMLE 39]

I thought you would like that one. We can't take ourselves to seriously now can we.

I did like it totally tongue in cheek :)

cheers