Dayz's Flawed Foundations: Movement and Gunplay

[Tristan Cooper 12]

On 1/20/2022 at 10:00 AM, THEGordonFreeman said:

They did dumb the game down to consoles because THEY DECIDED to jump in the console world. 

The game doesn’t have crossplay even, so it makes no sense to do this lol.

[lakevu 75]

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[Avant-Garde 229]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:00 PM, THEGordonFreeman said:

They did dumb the game down to consoles because THEY DECIDED to jump in the console world. 

Makes no sense tbh, I played this game since they launched the alpha thing and it wasn't dumbed down. If you think the old controls were better in any sort of way, than this isn't even a matter of opinion, you are just objectively wrong lol. They were a pain in the ass and completely "unatural". There wasn't a single thing realistic about it, was just clunky and honestly pretty dumb.

 

Now, if you are talking about survival aspects, then you are also objectively wrong. Everything was worse compared to how it is now tbh. The clouds were better tho. Maybe you are talking about the damage indicator thing? Honestly man, who cares, makes no difference at all tbh. Besides, if muh realism is the argument, irl you would know from which direction you got hurt.

 

I can't see how or where the game was dumbed down, and I follow this game since the mod days. What I see is a lot of missplaced nostalgia for what was once a real bad game but with a very singular idea. Now it is a good game, a great foundation to build uppon. Before this shit was barebones man, everything was fucked up lol.

 

Is it perfect? Well, far from it. But it is a great game, and one that no matter how you put it, will never be casual. At least the vanilla experience. If you want to see casual dayz, there are plenty of really dumbed down servers where you start with food, knife, tons of loot around, infinite stamina etc. Vanilla dayz isn't and wasn't dumbed down tbh. Anyways, I'd ask you to point me where the game was made more casual.

 

 

['AZAZEL' 109]

1 hour ago, Avant-Garde said:

 Besides, if muh realism is the argument, irl you would know from which direction you got hurt.

Would like to point out that not initially due to the state of shock and for a long time due to the pain etc. 

General directions i.e. left and right side, front or back are not particularly meaningful and certainly less accurate than the pin-point accuracy the game gives us.

[Officer Failure 31]

The only aspect which it got dumbed down is gunplay - sway and stamina (being out of breath). I tried to point that out in this thread https://forums.dayz.com/topic/252214-breathholding-out-of-breath/

In terms of movement they've done a few necessary things. Leansprinting and aimed rolling. I mean you can still snipe while leaning due to "no sway breathholding" even tho it should only be used for peaking and spraying around corners. But yes there are mods that cover (gun)movement way better - sGunplay or legacy gunplay for example, but correct me if i'm wrong I barley played them due to lack of servers (or always full).

 

[Nollakaks 4]

Inertia would be nice. I hate seeing people move like rabbits in drugs.

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

sGunplay should be integrated directly into the game.

[Thundermight 43]

There are some really cool suggestions here. For me, everything that goes in the "hardcore zumbie survival" is a win, but at this point i think they should try to bring changes that affect the social aspect of the game, right now the game is basically a infinite pubg match, if you spot someone, you shoot. And THAT must change.

[Just Caused 423]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:09 PM, DefectiveWater said:

100% agree that movement and gunplay isn't up to what you would expect of DayZ.

Escape from Tarkov has both (I didn't play it, only saw YouTube vids of it) natural movement and more natural gunplay.
Guns have weight to them in EFT, aiming takes more than a split second, and one could expect just that from DayZ.
But instead, DayZ feels like COD4 when it comes to the feel of the movement and shooting.

Hopefully gunplay get's an overhaul someday... I mean there are mods that make it so much more different, so it's possible.

Coming from almost 3 thousand hours of DayZ I thought I'd dominate Tarkov. Oh boy, was I wrong. That game will kick the crap out of you. I was suprised how a game could feel so realistic. Weapons have weight and way more details than, you know, actual military simulator (?).

[DefectiveWater 491]

12 hours ago, Just Caused said:

Coming from almost 3 thousand hours of DayZ I thought I'd dominate Tarkov. Oh boy, was I wrong. That game will kick the crap out of you. I was suprised how a game could feel so realistic. Weapons have weight and way more details than, you know, actual military simulator (?).

Never played EFT personally, but I did play other "realistic" games like Red Orchestra 2 and yeah... DayZ's weapon handling is kinda too simple for a game it's trying to be.

I'm not saying it needs to be as complex as any of those, but some improvements would be nice.

[Likvid-cb38db5edb1efdb0 17]

I will always be for the implementation of these ideas. In fact, this has been talked about for a long time, and it is all the more sad that this has not yet been added. This game definitely lacks inertia mechanics.

[liquidcactus 719]

 

On 11/22/2021 at 8:43 PM, lakevu said:

 Especially in this case where they sacrifice Realism and Simulation to make it happen in a game that is supposedly a "Survival Simulator". I believe what is happening is that people from the mod (the origins of the game) are being outnumbered by those that recently got into the game whether it be console or pc and have no experience with the games previous "feeling" of the past. And have no idea that the game can be so much better like it was in the past that they were able to experience. 

Yep. i been here since 2012 and this is very  true. IF you mention shit like this in discord channels people are just rude idiots about it

[lakevu 75]

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[lakevu 75]

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[Buakaw 274]

First of, gunplay.
Inertia is not realistic, but a poor gameplay mechanic to prevent flickshots and artifically slow the game down. It can add a nice touch if implemented in a very subtle way, but it was definitely too strong in legacy. Combined with how the movement has always been entirely inertia-free, weapon inertia cannot and should never come back until that is changed.

As for how "realistic" it actually is, see:

Spoiler

 

There is practically no inertia when handling a gun. It is just a 3-5 kilogram ergonomic stick in your hands. You could very well "flickshot" IRL if you choose to do so. The feeling of weight should be in the way the gun recoils and sounds. Currently I think some guns sound slightly hollow (example the AKM is a definite downgrade from legacy) and handle way too easily in most cases for Assault rifles. There is also artifical crap like bullets not going where the gun is pointing, which makes shooting feel less realistic and rewarding.

Next, movement.

On 11/18/2021 at 7:30 AM, lakevu said:

All the choices in the games design to speed up and add to the fluidity of movement at the cost of realism and simulation have detracted from the vary foundation Dayz was built upon and leaves the game in a position which is impossible to achieve its original vision of creating a hardcore zombie survival simulator. All these design flaws in the foundations of the game add up to make the game play no better than the next Call of Duty or Battlefield or whatever casual triple A shooter is coming out this year. Without fixing or attempting to fix these vital flaws to the game will forever leave Dayz handicapped in its pursuit to create a truly Hardcore zombie survival simulator.

I fail to see how fluid movement leaves the game in a handicapped state or take away from a hardcore experience. And particularly, how it is allegedly at the cost of realism. Humans are agile and very quick, especially if our life depends on it. You have also listed no reasons or arguments for 1)-4). Care to explain?

Edited June 22, 2022 by Buakaw

[Buakaw 274]

Another video showcasing the speed at which you can handle a weapon.

why the hell would you want inertia? its neither realistic nor does it feel good. Its nothing but a poor bandaid fix to a problem that isn't actually a problem whatsoever

[lakevu 75]

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[lakevu 75]

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[Real Men Play Solo 0]

On 11/18/2021 at 1:30 AM, lakevu said:

1.) Leaning speed has lead to people rapidly spamming the Q and E buttons to bob and weave their head while spraying people down.

2.) Going prone from the standing position takes a mere split second all while allowing you to hipfire your weapon on the way down.

3.) While rolling you are allowed to not only shoot but aim with hipfire mid roll.

4.) The Speed of walking and sprinting have been constrained to two speeds with nothing in between. With walking being arguably slow and sprinting being pretty fast.

These are just some of the problems with the current movement system that leads to Call of Duty levels of play not Dayz.

Next Gunplay,

Things like; Hipfire and ADS are all done extremely quickly with little to no feeling of weight, sway or recoil at all. At least compared to .62 levels, which I believe were in the right direction to where the game should be.

 

 

 

 

There weren't any explicit suggestions here so let's do some extrapolation and form a few.

 

But first, I would caution people not to confuse "the way it used to be" with "realistic", and also to keep separate in their minds "slow" and "real".  Preferring the way the game used to be is an entirely valid desire, and suggestions deriving from that desire are equally valid as any other.  I have seen a trend recently, however, with many complaints and suggestions masquerading as cries for realism, when in reality they are not.

 

#4 Again not a suggestion, and I don't have one in terms of how you would implement an incremental movement speed-based system.  I personally would not play a game that had such a system and I think such a system would probably result in an unrealistic experience.  You don't think about how many miles per hour you're moving in a combat situation.  Add to that number of keybinds such a level of detail would bring into the game.... no thanks.

 

But on the topic of movement... A resting-to-top-speed acceleration time of 0 flat is very, very unrealistic and I don't like that one either.  It would be nice to see:

- Delayed movement speed ramp up - from all states to any other state (e.g. from resting to walking, resting to jogging, resting to sprinting, jogging to sprinting, etc. etc.).  The total weight of carried gear should be used as a coefficient multiplier.

- The same mechanic used in the above suggestion should be applied to sudden stopping and turning.  Stopping should not be instant, but should be impacted by the weight coefficient.  Turning should have an arc forced on it when there is inertia, multiplied by weight coefficient.

- The weight mechanic is clearly already there behind the scenes, used to determine how much noise the character makes.  That said, I realize that's only half the battle.

 

#2 Perfect example of a confusion of slow with realistic.  Going from standing to prone can in fact in reality done much, much quicker than in the game.  And you can even do it while firing an assault rifle.  Yes, I do know from experience.

 

#3 Interesting one.  I didn't know you could go to the hipfire weapon stance mid-roll.  If that is the case I suggest disallowing that.  Allowing weapon fire while rolling however, if that were removed I would be in an uproar.  Nothing wrong with that aside from the certainty of a few ejected shells going down your flak vest collar and burning your neck.

 

 

I think in a very general sense though that before Bohemia were to consider any of these, or any further feature additions changes, the bugs that have existed in the game for years now should be addressed.  E.g. the weapon raise bug and the bug where slots in inventory containers become unusable.

[lakevu 75]

On 8/2/2022 at 2:04 PM, Real Men Play Solo said:

 

There weren't any explicit suggestions here so let's do some extrapolation and form a few.

 

But first, I would caution people not to confuse "the way it used to be" with "realistic", and also to keep separate in their minds "slow" and "real".  Preferring the way the game used to be is an entirely valid desire, and suggestions deriving from that desire are equally valid as any other.  I have seen a trend recently, however, with many complaints and suggestions masquerading as cries for realism, when in reality they are not.

 

#4 Again not a suggestion, and I don't have one in terms of how you would implement an incremental movement speed-based system.  I personally would not play a game that had such a system and I think such a system would probably result in an unrealistic experience.  You don't think about how many miles per hour you're moving in a combat situation.  Add to that number of keybinds such a level of detail would bring into the game.... no thanks.

 

But on the topic of movement... A resting-to-top-speed acceleration time of 0 flat is very, very unrealistic and I don't like that one either.  It would be nice to see:

- Delayed movement speed ramp up - from all states to any other state (e.g. from resting to walking, resting to jogging, resting to sprinting, jogging to sprinting, etc. etc.).  The total weight of carried gear should be used as a coefficient multiplier.

- The same mechanic used in the above suggestion should be applied to sudden stopping and turning.  Stopping should not be instant, but should be impacted by the weight coefficient.  Turning should have an arc forced on it when there is inertia, multiplied by weight coefficient.

- The weight mechanic is clearly already there behind the scenes, used to determine how much noise the character makes.  That said, I realize that's only half the battle.

 

#2 Perfect example of a confusion of slow with realistic.  Going from standing to prone can in fact in reality done much, much quicker than in the game.  And you can even do it while firing an assault rifle.  Yes, I do know from experience.

 

#3 Interesting one.  I didn't know you could go to the hipfire weapon stance mid-roll.  If that is the case I suggest disallowing that.  Allowing weapon fire while rolling however, if that were removed I would be in an uproar.  Nothing wrong with that aside from the certainty of a few ejected shells going down your flak vest collar and burning your neck.

 

 

I think in a very general sense though that before Bohemia were to consider any of these, or any further feature additions changes, the bugs that have existed in the game for years now should be addressed.  E.g. the weapon raise bug and the bug where slots in inventory containers become unusable.

I agree. After thinking about it alot recently movement is a big factor, maybe even bigger than the gunplay itself. and should having something done about it to make it better. for example the fact you can go from stop to full speed without build up is just dumb. aswell as no stopping inertia. along with many other things.

movement itself does need a massive overhaul. 

[lakevu 75]

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[lakevu 75]

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[DefectiveWater 491]

Check the video I linked (3:23).

They said in 2017 one of the things missing is player inertia. It's 2022 now and we still don't have it.

Hopefully 2023 then...

Edited September 6, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[lakevu 75]

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[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

Well it seems inertia is now in.