Dayz's Flawed Foundations: Movement and Gunplay

[General Zod 1114]

11 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

Must be nice living in fantasy land oblivious to the problems in front of your eyes.  I guess your poop don't stink, Joe Biden is the greatest president that ever lived as well, cars in DayZ work perfectly all the time, and it's impossible for a scripter to take down a console server as the DayZ server executable THAT ALL SERVERS USE (CONSOLE OR NOT) is infalliable.

Must be even nicer in the land of PC master race delusion where if only those pesky consoles didn't exist DayZ would a well optimised game where everything works and a super hardcore survival game. And literally no one is talking about hackers taking down servers but rather in game cheats which are not present on consoles. 

Truth is you're annoyed at the pathetic technical state of this game, and cling on to the idea of if dayz stayed a PC exclusive devs would have fixed this game. Or that the only reason why more survival isn't being added is because of consoles as if console players aren't buying DayZ for the same reason we did. Because it was supposed to be hardcore survival game, and it's not. 

News flash, if they were going to fix the game and add proper survival they would regardless of making console version or not. The only reason why they haven't it's because it somehow became acceptable in the gaming industry to release absolute garbage of a product, take the money and do fuck all to fix it. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by General Zod

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

1 minute ago, General Zod said:

Must be even nicer in the land of PC master race delusion where if only those pesky consoles didn't exist DayZ would a well optimised game where everything works and a super hardcore survival game. 

I wouldn't know.  It's hard to see with amount of bullcrap you keep spraying.  I'll just set you on ignore going forward.

[General Zod 1114]

Oh no, someone is not agreeing with me, so I'm going to hide his posts and only read the ones from my yesman who encourage my deluded views. 

[DayzDayzFanboy 1280]

1 hour ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

Must be nice living in fantasy land oblivious to the problems in front of your eyes.  I guess your poop don't stink, Joe Biden is the greatest president that ever lived as well, cars in DayZ work perfectly all the time, and it's impossible for a scripter to take down a console server as the DayZ server executable THAT ALL SERVERS USE (CONSOLE OR NOT) is infalliable.

Who said cars work? Eh? Didn't quite catch that. And as for your sarcasm, it kinda highlights the fact that you have no logical argument here, just lashing out. Pathetic really. 

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

5 minutes ago, DayzDayzFanboy said:

Who said cars work? Eh? Didn't quite catch that. And as for your sarcasm, it kinda highlights the fact that you have no logical argument here, just lashing out. Pathetic really. 

What do you feed your stable of Unicorns?

 

[DefectiveWater 491]

So let me get this straight, are you saying the "new" character controller is worse than the old one?

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

6 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

So let me get this straight, are you saying the "new" character controller is worse than the old one?

Finally, an intelligent question.  It's not really about which was worse.  As BI explained at the time, NO ONE WOULD NOTICE.  It was done so they could re-engineer things to make consoles work.  In the end, the movement we have is more arcadey and less real.  Just what the console people enjoy and are use to.  While the old character was flawed and needed waaay more polishing, this particular piece HAD to be done to get dat console money.  That's not conspiracy theory, BI bobbed and weaved faster than you can hit Q and E while running to avoid that head shot... with no consequences for that action.

[DefectiveWater 491]

12 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

In the end, the movement we have is more arcadey and less real.

Isn't it obvious that it's unfinished though? With all the flaws this current character controller has (falling animation bug, crouch cancelling aiming...), to me it looks like it's unfinished.

Old movement system (dont forget deaths by ladders, broken legs cause of stairs...) wasn't really any better than the current one besides some features which I assume will be added back in eventually (walking uphills) and even expanded further than the old engine could have been.
Still, nothing here suggests that it's consoles who are at fault here. It's just a genuine engine upgrade in which they are using more modern methods to achieve same results which offer more flexibility and upgradability.

Edited January 20, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

8 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

Isn't it obvious that it's unfinished though? With all the flaws this current character controller has (falling animation bug, crouch cancelling aiming...), to me it looks like it's unfinished.

Old movement system wasn't really any better than the current one besides some features which I assume will be added back in eventually (walking uphills) and even expanded further than the old engine could have been.
Still, nothing here suggests that it's consoles who are at fault here. It's just a genuine engine upgrade in which they are using more modern methods to achieve same results which offer more flexibility and upgradability.

The whole game is unfinished.  Remember .64 then 1.0 suddenly.  No doubt there was pressure from Microsoft and Sony to get the game out.  Console money moved everything up.  It's what BI doesn't say that speaks volumes about this.  The schedule got moved up to meet the demands from the console guys.  Like I continue to say, the game would not have been perfect on release, it would have been in a better state because the release would not have been rushed.  Enfusion is designed to run on consoles and PC.   What we have is bet a testing for Enfusion and a Frankenstein of a game taht should not have happened until the higher ups saw that console money dangled in front of them.

If you have a more compelling argument about this particular move, I would LOVE to hear it.

Edited January 20, 2022 by THEGordonFreeman

[Girth Brooks 558]

New controller is MUCH better. I don't think most of yall remember how janky movement used to be. How you could turn instantly or zig zag while running and basically avoid bullets? Making the player interact correctly with map is insanely difficult. Add in physics etc and shit gets complicated.

[DefectiveWater 491]

10 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

What we have is bet a testing for Enfusion and a Frankenstein of a game taht should not have happened until the higher ups saw that console money dangled in front of them.

I heard from rumors that DayZ was always meant to be co-developed with the new Enfusion engine, but... making an engine takes time, so DayZ development took much longer than anticipated. There is nothing to blame consoles for.
Sure they released the game on the consoles, but that doesn't change the fact that they just didn't have the engine for the game ready. They COULDN'T from a technical standpoint make the game they wanted to make.

You could blame consoles for 0.64 > 1.0 version jump, but to be honest everyone was sick of their Early Access BS excuses, they had the game in development for so long there is nobody else to blame but BI.
Game put in development way too early, work on the new engine barely started so they had to use old stuff and eventually ditch it and transfer to the new stuff, hence we lost so many features the game used to have.

So to sum it up, the only blame could go on BI for not having the engine early enough, thus prolonging the development of DayZ for so long and making a mess out of it.
I'm sure Enfusion will have server side vehicles just like DayZ, but now DayZ is suffering from the early implementation of that.

Edited January 20, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

3 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

New controller is MUCH better. I don't think most of yall remember how janky movement used to be. How you could turn instantly or zig zag while running and basically avoid bullets? Making the player interact correctly with map is insanely difficult. Add in physics etc and shit gets complicated.

Yes, and now you can avoid headshots much easier, and perform damn near perfect center mass shots at medium range while rolling on the ground.   Everyone wants the new controller to be better than the old, but in reality they just swapped an AMC Gremlin for a Yugo.  Both of those cars equally suck, they just suck in different ways.

[General Zod 1114]

13 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

The whole game is unfinished.  Remember .64 then 1.0 suddenly.  No doubt there was pressure from Microsoft and Sony to get the game out.  Console money moved everything up.  It's what BI doesn't say that speaks volumes about this.  The schedule got moved up to meet the demands from the console guys.  Like I continue to say, the game would not have been perfect on release, it would have been in a better state because the release would not have been rushed.  Enfusion is designed to run on consoles and PC.   What we have is bet a testing for Enfusion and a Frankenstein of a game taht should not have happened until the higher ups saw that console money dangled in front of them.

If you have a more compelling argument about this particular move, I would LOVE to hear it.

I got DayZ in early access in December 2013, that's over 9 years ago. The official release for PC was 2018 and 2019 for consoles. 5 years of having thousands of people doing the testing for you and all the additional income those early purchases generated and you still say this rushed ? And now, another 3 years after the official release this game still has an arm long list of major issues. 22 months from now 10 years will have passed since the initial release. Most studios manage to release an entire franchise of finished games across all platforms and 2 console generations in that time period. And somehow BI cannot get just one game to work. 

Which means that they either don't care, or this game is fubar.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by General Zod

[DefectiveWater 491]

Also, don't blame the devs, blame BI management or higherups for rushing a project that clearly wasn't ready for public release.
Sure it's dev's responsibility to finish the game, but when you are having issues with engine and development the only thing you can do is ask for more time.

"Hicks felt heard by the development team, but the problems kept recurring.
He was particularly upset when Bohemia began planning to release DayZ’s 0.63 build as the game’s official 1.0. “This is a bad idea,” he said:
“We don’t have the feature set in the game right now that our store page has said is our target for the last four years.”"

- https://www.pcgamer.com/for-hundreds-of-days-brian-hicks-battled-to-finish-dayz-and-didnt-quite-get-there/

Early access was a mistake too. If the game was silently in development for 4 years at least, we wouldn't have been hearing "9 years in development/9 years since early access" but "game has been out for a year and they fully changed the engine, let's give them a bit of time to flesh it out".

Edited January 20, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

4 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

I heard from rumors that DayZ was always meant to be co-developed with the new Enfusion engine, but... making an engine takes time, so DayZ development took much longer than anticipated. There is nothing to blame consoles for.
Sure they released the game on the consoles, but that doesn't change the fact that they just didn't have the engine for the game ready. They COULDN'T from a technical standpoint make the game they wanted to make.

You could blame consoles for 0.64 > 1.0 version jump, but to be honest everyone was sick of their Early Access BS excuses, they had the game in development for so long there is nobody else to blame but BI.
Game put in development way too early, work on the new engine barely started so they had to use old stuff and eventually ditch it and transfer to the new stuff, hence we lost so many features the game used to have.

So to sum it up, the only blame could go on BI for not having the engine early enough, thus prolonging the development of DayZ for so long and making a mess out of it.
I'm sure Enfusion will have server side vehicles just like DayZ, but now DayZ is suffering from the early implementation of that.

Now there is a LOT here I agree with.  DayZ is the defacto standard of how not to develop a game in the public eye.

[Parazight 1594]

2 hours ago, General Zod said:

Walking and sneaking is miles better using sticks than it is using keyboard. 

I disagree with your opinion and assessment.  Sounds like you haven’t mastered the keyboard yet. No offense intended.  Not going to explain why. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Parazight

[General Zod 1114]

4 minutes ago, Parazight said:

I disagree with your opinion and assessment.  Sounds like you haven’t mastered the keyboard yet. No offense intended.  Not going to explain why. 

I think it gives you more control over the speed of movement, on pc it's either full movement or standstill the W is either pressed or not, the stick gives you those two and every speed in between.  That being said I haven't played DayZ on consoles so I don't know if this applies to this particular game or is the movements equally spastic. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by General Zod

[DefectiveWater 491]

8 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

Yes, and now you can avoid headshots much easier, and perform damn near perfect center mass shots at medium range while rolling on the ground.   Everyone wants the new controller to be better than the old, but in reality they just swapped an AMC Gremlin for a Yugo.  Both of those cars equally suck, they just suck in different ways.

But see, here's the thing, old character controller might have been at the dead end. They probably couldn't have added features as easy as it may be now.
Sure the base for the current character controller might not be as fleshed out as the old one, but it may have higher ceiling.

1 minute ago, Parazight said:

I disagree with your opinion and assessment.  Sounds like you haven’t mastered the keyboard yet. No offense intended.  Not going to explain why. 

If you ask me it's more "immersive" to only slightly move the stick to go slow, and fully move it to go at max jogging speed.
PC has only on/off toggles which might be fine, but analog sticks have the advantage of offering a range from 0-100% instead of only 0 and 100%.

Main reason why playing racing games on keyboard sucks.

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

1 minute ago, DefectiveWater said:

Also, don't blame the devs, blame BI management or higherups.

"Hicks felt heard by the development team, but the problems kept recurring.
He was particularly upset when Bohemia began planning to release DayZ’s 0.63 build as the game’s official 1.0. “This is a bad idea,” he said:
“We don’t have the feature set in the game right now that our store page has said is our target for the last four years.”"

- https://www.pcgamer.com/for-hundreds-of-days-brian-hicks-battled-to-finish-dayz-and-didnt-quite-get-there/

After working with Software developers across multiple companies and understanding the different methodologies used to create new software and systems.  I blame both management and the devs.  Early on it was evident to me that scope creep was a HUGE issue and management didn't hold their feet to the fire.  They let Dean Hall run his mouth and didn't reign him in until it was too late.  I am certain management thought the attention DH brought would be all unicorns and rainbows and they could translate that into $$$.  But the devs kept saying things in public that they shouldn't have.  Do you remember when we were told speed hacking and flying cars would not be possible in the game because they were going to use "SANITY CHECKS".  That never happened.  And if you underrstand the move to have vehicles client side, you would know that sanity checks would damn near be impossible UNLESS the vehicles were server side.  Hell, they couldn't even use the ragdoll stuff because it was all done client side and the way bodies fell would be different on every client as it was random.   All of this is shit that happens during the normal R and D phase pre-ALPHA.   They were saying these things and promising things out in the open in EA and had no idea if it would actually work.

It was just stupidity flying all around at BI.

[DefectiveWater 491]

8 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

After working with Software developers across multiple companies and understanding the different methodologies used to create new software and systems.  I blame both management and the devs.  Early on it was evident to me that scope creep was a HUGE issue and management didn't hold their feet to the fire.  They let Dean Hall run his mouth and didn't reign him in until it was too late.  I am certain management thought the attention DH brought would be all unicorns and rainbows and they could translate that into $$$.  But the devs kept saying things in public that they shouldn't have.  Do you remember when we were told speed hacking and flying cars would not be possible in the game because they were going to use "SANITY CHECKS".  That never happened.  And if you underrstand the move to have vehicles client side, you would know that sanity checks would damn near be impossible UNLESS the vehicles were server side.  Hell, they couldn't even use the ragdoll stuff because it was all done client side and the way bodies fell would be different on every client as it was random.   All of this is shit that happens during the normal R and D phase pre-ALPHA.   They were saying these things and promising things out in the open in EA and had no idea if it would actually work.

It was just stupidity flying all around at BI.

Thank you for finally shifting the blame from consoles to the only thing that is the cause of all of it, and that's BI.

I won't blame Dean Hall or anyone personally, it's not a single person job, and making a game and then having all of your progress deleted due to an engine change isn't a fun thing.
The best thing we can do as players is keep reporting issues and deliver balancing/wishlist feedback to BI - and BI hopefully will take our opinions and at least think it through. We've been here long enough, and at this point we deserve to be heard.

I'm looking forward to the 2022 roadmap, and I hope BI will be transparent and real with us. I would love if they said how it actually is, how's the game progressing and what kind of technical issues they are facing. I'm sure all players would love more insight into the development.
They did say they will try fixing cars, and they probably have tried, maybe even fixed it internally... maybe what's stopping them from implementing their new car physics is the current state of the servers/game, maybe they need to optimize the servers further for the fixed cars to show any promises.

Who knows... just don't blame console players for any changes to the game. They want the same hardcore experience most of us do, we all want the game to succeed.

Edited January 20, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[DefectiveWater 491]

On 1/19/2022 at 3:57 AM, lakevu said:

But i feel like the game has suffered enormously since catering to console players in almost every way except

Still waiting for his reasoning for this bold statement, probably won't get any answers.

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

1 minute ago, DefectiveWater said:

Thank you for finally shifting the blame from consoles to the only thing that is the cause of all of it, and that's BI.

I didn't shift blame.  I never blamed consoles.  BI's decision to go after console money was a primary problem in the end.  I have always laid the blame at BI's feet.  People on here interpreted it as me blaming consoles.  This game never should have been released on consoles.  Maybe another game fully on Enfusion, but not DayZ.

[DefectiveWater 491]

7 minutes ago, THEGordonFreeman said:

I never blamed consoles.

Unless I misunderstood you...

On 1/19/2022 at 2:08 PM, THEGordonFreeman said:

I screamed that dumbing this game down to consoles would be it's ruin.  ANd here we are 8 years later discussing how much we loathe the gunplay, the vehicle physics, the lack of base building mechanics, ad nauseum. Deciding to put this game on consoles was the single worst decision for DayZ hardcore players, or DayZ players that want a true DayZ experience.  We will never get it.

From this it seems to me like you are saying DayZ is here where it is just because of consoles, with all it's issues, flaws and drawbacks. No, none of this is because of consoles, the only blame could go to the unfinished engine for the game. BI is responsible for that engine, so all the blame should go to them.

I don't think DayZ would have been any better if they kept it PC only tbh.

Edited January 20, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[THEGordonFreeman 664]

18 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

Unless I misunderstood you...

From this it seems to me like you are saying DayZ is here where it is just because of consoles, with all it's issues, flaws and drawbacks. No, none of this is because of consoles, the only blame could go to the unfinished engine for the game. BI is responsible for that engine, so all the blame should go to them.

I don't think DayZ would have been any better if they kept it PC only tbh.

They did dumb the game down to consoles because THEY DECIDED to jump in the console world. 

[lakevu 75]

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