Dayz's Flawed Foundations: Movement and Gunplay

[SleeperZ 50]

2 hours ago, Officer Failure said:

No don't give up. This is an important matter. Because how do survivors die? Yea gunshots, probably 90% and that's why Dayz needs a good/better combat mechanic. Dayz is very good in a lot ways but combat sucks.

A couple months ago a friend started with dayz (we played arma2 dayzmod a lot together) and he automatically kneels down or goes prone when he spots a player. Like in the old days(z) because that's how you got good shots. I had to learn him to shot straight away standing up with hold breath for those "point click kills" and its just supersad.

There are all those great things like sway, dispersion, weight properly adjusted and effected with a decent stamina/breath system we could have the best gunfight mechanic what a great open word game like Dayz deserves. But whats best right now? Hard and heavy plate carrier + mosin (hello dispersion?)

tldr More Arma2 less Cod

Completely agree. But this post was made 540 days ago and  there have been 0 updates on this matter. I think the reason why they're not doing it is because dayz is no longer a hardcore survival game, it appeals to casuals and people who dont really want to think too hard before they shoot. I think the current gunplay suites console platform alot better than PC but the thing is they dont develop on two versions of dayz (console + PC) they use the same code which means why would they develop something that only benefits one platform. They will never do this...

[lakevu 77]

On 5/16/2023 at 5:51 AM, Officer Failure said:

No don't give up. This is an important matter. Because how do survivors die? Yea gunshots, probably 90% and that's why Dayz needs a good/better combat mechanic. Dayz is very good in a lot ways but combat sucks.

A couple months ago a friend started with dayz (we played arma2 dayzmod a lot together) and he automatically kneels down or goes prone when he spots a player. Like in the old days(z) because that's how you got good shots. I had to learn him to shot straight away standing up with hold breath for those "point click kills" and its just supersad.

There are all those great things like sway, dispersion, weight properly adjusted and effected with a decent stamina/breath system we could have the best gunfight mechanic what a great open word game like Dayz deserves. But whats best right now? Hard and heavy plate carrier + mosin (hello dispersion?)

tldr More Arma2 less Cod

this is an excellent point and a great illustration of what this game has become. I remember doing the same things in arma 2. hitting the floor and getting my breath back before taking my shots. now thats no longer the case, its just snap, hold ctrl, shoot. nothing like the strategy you had to engage in on arma 2

[lakevu 77]

On 5/16/2023 at 8:51 AM, SleeperZ said:

Completely agree. But this post was made 540 days ago and  there have been 0 updates on this matter. I think the reason why they're not doing it is because dayz is no longer a hardcore survival game, it appeals to casuals and people who dont really want to think too hard before they shoot. I think the current gunplay suites console platform alot better than PC but the thing is they dont develop on two versions of dayz (console + PC) they use the same code which means why would they develop something that only benefits one platform. They will never do this...

this is very true and is the basis for many of my suspicions aswell. can you imagine playing arma 2 on a console? i sure cant because you couldn't and have it still be enjoyable. 

but i believe the paradigm is all wrong. console should be treated like a "gateway" or "entry level" to the game while pc is the flagship experience in "how it should be".

this treating pc like an afterthought and console being the main attraction is a huge misstep in my opinion. I remember buying my old pc solely to play dayz back in the day because i had to experience it from what i saw in Frankie's videos. to think people wouldn't do the same today with how cheap great computers are nowadays just seems like shortsightedness to me and even worse. laziness. laziness at the cost of not manifesting day to the full potential and experience that it could be.

[lakevu 77]

On 5/16/2023 at 5:51 AM, Officer Failure said:

No don't give up. This is an important matter. Because how do survivors die? Yea gunshots, probably 90% and that's why Dayz needs a good/better combat mechanic. Dayz is very good in a lot ways but combat sucks.

A couple months ago a friend started with dayz (we played arma2 dayzmod a lot together) and he automatically kneels down or goes prone when he spots a player. Like in the old days(z) because that's how you got good shots. I had to learn him to shot straight away standing up with hold breath for those "point click kills" and its just supersad.

There are all those great things like sway, dispersion, weight properly adjusted and effected with a decent stamina/breath system we could have the best gunfight mechanic what a great open word game like Dayz deserves. But whats best right now? Hard and heavy plate carrier + mosin (hello dispersion?)

tldr More Arma2 less Cod

and no i dont plan on stopping as movement is the most important part of the game. the most. above gunplay. above aesthetics and graphics. 

when i first wrote this i actually didnt understand how important this was. I just saw a problem that didnt line up to my experience on arma 2 and wrote about it, but after much contemplation about the state of the game and why it has turned into the way it is now I discovered many things. one of which is how truly important movement is in the game. any game.

movement is the foundation and the standard of value of the game. everything is built upon it. movement sets the standard for what a game is as an entity and whether it ends up being like doom vs ready or not. movement is the first thing that must be established that trickles down into the rest of the development of a project. and slight, very slight changes change a game, like dayz mod, from its origin as a simulator to being a "shooter" instead today. and its only very slight changes that has made this happen. very small changes in movement that have made this paradigm shift happen and have bled into every aspect of the game downstream of it. from Movement -> Gunplay -> Aesthetics (sounds, zombies, cars, Ui look etc etc)

so you are right it is important, it is the most important matter there is to be had about the game

change the movement, change the game

[XyoCaliber 0]

I agree with the points made about the movement and gunplay, BI have expressed wanting to slow the fights down and having the current systems in place is antithetical to this entire point.  An overhaul of the gunplay I feel is most needed at the moment. Its disheartneing when most gunfights boil down to point and click with a bolty even in close quarters at times. I played before the systems were originally changed and guns felt way more distinct and had a weight to how they shot. I think overhauling the current system to be more similar in function to .62 would benefit gunfights and I think giving console players a chance to experience this type of gunplay would be interesting to see. DayZ needs the clear goal of "Survival Sim" with the supporting systems (movement, gunplay) being as robust as they can be.  The simple addition of being able to switch witch shoulder my survivor holds their weapon when I peak would change gunfights as they currently stand

[lakevu 77]

15 hours ago, XyoCaliber said:

I agree with the points made about the movement and gunplay, BI have expressed wanting to slow the fights down and having the current systems in place is antithetical to this entire point.  An overhaul of the gunplay I feel is most needed at the moment. Its disheartneing when most gunfights boil down to point and click with a bolty even in close quarters at times. I played before the systems were originally changed and guns felt way more distinct and had a weight to how they shot. I think overhauling the current system to be more similar in function to .62 would benefit gunfights and I think giving console players a chance to experience this type of gunplay would be interesting to see. DayZ needs the clear goal of "Survival Sim" with the supporting systems (movement, gunplay) being as robust as they can be.  The simple addition of being able to switch witch shoulder my survivor holds their weapon when I peak would change gunfights as they currently stand

i agree, but not fully.

i haven't added this to my post as at the time i didn't know about it but the true thing that needs to be changed is the movement.

gunplay is merely a derivative of the movement and is a byproduct of that system

what makes the current gunplay "seem" to make sense?

because it is congruent with the level of depth and realism to the movement system

case and point lets say we changed the movement entirely to what arma 2 has. like completely like it is. 

How would that feel?

i would feel disgustingly wrong and out of place. because you can snap you gun but you character is not snappy as the gun. they would feel entirely incongruent with eachother

but because the current movement is the way it is then the current gunplay "seems" tolerable and makes sense for the foundation it is secondary too


Movement is the key. changing the movement will have a domino effect on the entire rest of the game because it is the foundation it is built upon. Changing the gunplay first would be a waste of time as it is secondary to the movement. and you would have to go back and redu it anyways after the movement is changed. because you dont know if what you have done to the gunplay will be congruent with what you decide to do to the movement.

 

[DefectiveWater 491]

Regarding gunplay, they improved the aiming delay in 1.21 so aiming feels much more snappy than ever before. They also updated some scopes to have less glare and better reticles.

I wonder if they are preparing to make changes to the gunhandling 🤔

[lakevu 77]

16 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Regarding gunplay, they improved the aiming delay in 1.21 so aiming feels much more snappy than ever before. They also updated some scopes to have less glare and better reticles.

I wonder if they are preparing to make changes to the gunhandling 🤔

maybe but i doubt it

i didnt know they did anything to aiming delay. i just heard they fixed the ads bug.

[lakevu 77]

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[lakevu 77]

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[DefectiveWater 491]

On 5/28/2023 at 11:50 PM, lakevu said:

maybe but i doubt it

i didnt know they did anything to aiming delay. i just heard they fixed the ads bug.

Now thinking about it, I don't think we'll get any major gunplay overhauls this year.
Next update is presumably the AI/Zombie update and after that we get Chernarus update.

Recent Squad update left me amazed. It might be slightly over the top in some aspects, but it would be nice to have that in DayZ.

[SleeperZ 50]

4 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Now thinking about it, I don't think we'll get any major gunplay overhauls this year.
Next update is presumably the AI/Zombie update and after that we get Chernarus update.

Recent Squad update left me amazed. It might be slightly over the top in some aspects, but it would be nice to have that in DayZ.

The game now appeals to call of duty kids so they probably wont change it because they now make up a large percentage of the population. But i stil pray for an overhaul

[DefectiveWater 491]

16 minutes ago, SleeperZ said:

The game now appeals to call of duty kids so they probably wont change it because they now make up a large percentage of the population. But i stil pray for an overhaul

Even so, devs can freely adjust game parameters as they like. If players don't like it, all they need to do is play on modded servers that change it according to their preference as they do already.

[lakevu 77]

16 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Now thinking about it, I don't think we'll get any major gunplay overhauls this year.
Next update is presumably the AI/Zombie update and after that we get Chernarus update.

Recent Squad update left me amazed. It might be slightly over the top in some aspects, but it would be nice to have that in DayZ.

i agree.

I was actually very surprised that squad would do such a monumental change to a pretty well established game at this point. very bold of them.

but if im going to be honest i really doubt anything in this post will be addressed or taken seriously especially after the release of arma reforger which, to me atleast, shows a pretty blatant step to pander to casual gamers over their previous targeted audience of "authentic" military simulation. such as arma 2.


at the very least i want some sort of treatise to make this problem more ostensibly available to people so they can understand why the game is the way it is now vs how it was before. and to get rid of that feeling that cant be quite pinned down of why "this game doesnt feel just right". because it isnt. its identity and mechanics are incongruent with eachoether which makes it feel like a unintegral piece. and why it feels "off". because the game is trying to be a serious zombie survival game but yet im quickscoping people. Why?

[lakevu 77]

11 hours ago, SleeperZ said:

The game now appeals to call of duty kids so they probably wont change it because they now make up a large percentage of the population. But i stil pray for an overhaul

this is true.

seems bohemia have had a taste of the braindead mainstream money and have no plans of returning to the roots of arma 2 where this game began. if arma reforger has anything to show us about that.

[lakevu 77]

11 hours ago, DefectiveWater said:

Even so, devs can freely adjust game parameters as they like. If players don't like it, all they need to do is play on modded servers that change it according to their preference as they do already.

of coarse this is true.

but what the devs control with the vanilla experience. really what the true identity of "dayz" is. is the standard of which makes the game. they control the standard. and they have lowered the standard simplified the game so much that it has cast a wider net of players that find this gameplay "fun" and mindless vs the very mindful and effortful gameplay that was before.

and the philosophy has been reversed. now instead of those outliers to dayz's identity. aka "hardcore" zombie survive simulator. were made to find servers that were more pvp orientated now the hardcore zombie survival players are now the ones looking for the servers instead. instead of the base game being built for them. like it always should have been.

[tzivan89 7]

I want single player sandbox mode

[lakevu 77]

16 hours ago, tzivan89 said:

I want single player sandbox mode

how does this even relate at all to this topic of conversation?

[lakevu 77]

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[lakevu 77]

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[lakevu 77]

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[lakevu 77]

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[discipled 62]

This threat is really one of the dumbest I've read... filled completely with inaccuracies and just blatantly no knowledge of the game and yet you seem to think boosting it is going to get something accomplished for the past year. This post is a joke and wrong on every level. None of the points made about the gun play are accurate. They added inertia, you lose accuracy on hip firing and when you barrel roll on the ground... weight has affected your stamina and accuracy for a long time now. If it feels like COD to you, maybe you're on the wrong server.

[SleeperZ 50]

34 minutes ago, discipled said:

you lose accuracy on hip firing and when you barrel roll on the ground... weight has affected your stamina and accuracy for a long time now

I dont know who told you that but they're lying. Minus the stamina point. You have full accuracy no matter the stance, stamina and condition your weapon is in. You're probably remembering before 0.62 when the game was hard and had cool mechanics but since then they dumbed it down for the people who ask for 50. cals to be put into the game every patch

[lakevu 77]

3 hours ago, discipled said:

This threat is really one of the dumbest I've read... filled completely with inaccuracies and just blatantly no knowledge of the game and yet you seem to think boosting it is going to get something accomplished for the past year. This post is a joke and wrong on every level. None of the points made about the gun play are accurate. They added inertia, you lose accuracy on hip firing and when you barrel roll on the ground... weight has affected your stamina and accuracy for a long time now. If it feels like COD to you, maybe you're on the wrong server.

the post is factual.

 

sure they may have added inertia but incompletely. why do i not have inertia slowing down? why do i dead stop when i let go of the keys? finally. why is there no inertia while turning? you cant just add one dimension of the system, in this case, going faster. and then say "problem solved! inertia's in the game!". this is just short sighted.

 

and this post is a joke. to you. cause you dont get it. and thats fine. this post is not meant for you. this post is for people that do "get it" and can piece what ive said here together and understand the bigger picture.