DayZ - more Survival, less Speed

[TheHappyMile 30]

I have special feelings for this game. For me, DayZ always was and still is an unique experience. I followed this game since the Arma2-Mod.

DayZ with it’s huge Map, all those possibilities, decisions and it’s death that’s more then the respawn of most videogames.

DayZ as a game where there’s fear to die at least in some players.

 

I would love to call DayZ a game of Survival-Horror-Genre. But at the moment, it isn’t for me.

 

 

In my opinion the most important problem of DayZ for it’s survival-experience is the movement speed of the DayZ-Char. Chernarus+ is a huge map with 225km2. But it’s still possible to reach every point of the map from everywhere in a bit more then an hour.

 

Therefor the strategic important high-loot areas can be reached without the need for food or other supplies in a short period of sprinting.

The result of fast movement is reduced danger of environment because players can get to towns to look for new supplies quite easy. Searching for food in the woods – a great aspect of survival in DayZ - is not necessary to survive any situation but extreme bad luck.

Another important part is the combination of group dynamic with movement speed. While mates are saving Loot the killed one can easily reach his group again. Therefore the value of life goes down especially in PvP-Situations because death is no longer a total death.

 

The actual speed for SPRINTING/JOGGING/WALKING is round about 22/14/6 (Marathon world’s best is 20km/h).

 

 

My experiences showed me, that jogging has to be the standard form of moving through Chernarus. Speed should my dynamic depended on stamina (around 15-30/7-10/5)

 

Therefor we need a stamina-system that integrates all components of Characterstats.

The value of stamina should depend on nutritional condition (hunger/thirst), health (blood/diseases), body temperature, stomach-volume, weight of loot, (later training -> experience/lifespan).

Stamina also regenerates depended to these stats and the actual movement speed.

 

So jogging (7-10km/h) and sprinting (15-30km/h) speed relates to the condition of the Char shown by it’s stamina. Sprinting will cost much stamina – therefor you can’t sprint forever but for a few hundred meters. After sprinting your char will jog slower while stamina is regenerating.

 

 

What are the possibilities:

-       Jogging as standard movement bringing back the real feeling of distance, showing the survival aspect in the woods for longer journeys

-       The behaviour of freshspawns will change massively. A hungry freshspawn will have to look for food to be faster on it’s way to high-loot areas. In combination with wild animals, looting will be essential to survive the way northeast!

-       Character conditions later on become more important , too. A healthy, rest bandit can easily chase an ill, hungry and tired player. Other way round definitely not! Also the survival chances of a tired, hungry and/or ill person are lower due to lower speed and lower conditions in general which means that animals and infected are a bigger thread!

-       Group dynamic: „A chain is as strong as its weakest link.” Will the group wait for a slower player? Will they take care of him/her? Will they carry the weight?

 

 

 

I think that it’s essential for this game and the survival-aspect to reduce speed and implement a stamina-system – as complex as my thoughts or a more simple more simple.

[FlimFlamm 509]

You might have missed the devs talking about this, but they have done so a few times.

Right now "sprint" or "stamina" is unlimited, but when the new "player controller" (term for programming code related to character control) is complete they are going to add a bunch of mechanics that will accomplish what you're after.

Stamina is going to be limited instead of unlimited, so if you try sprinting for too long your character will slow down and enter a very strong "winded" state. Stamina levels will probably be affected by nourishment and hydration levels so that well fed players will be able to sprint longer.

The weight system is going to make it so that the more weight you are carrying, the slower you will move and sprinting will cost you even more stamina points.

All this, and more, has already been confirmed!!!

Edited August 6, 2016 by FlimFlamm

[sneakydude 480]

28 minutes ago, FlimFlamm said:

You might have missed the devs talking about this, but they have done so a few times.

Right now "sprint" or "stamina" is unlimited, but when the new "player controller" (term for programming code related to character control) is complete they are going to add a bunch of mechanics that will accomplish what you're after.

Stamina is going to be limited instead of unlimited, so if you try sprinting for too long your character will slow down and enter a very strong "winded" state. Stamina levels will probably be affected by nourishment and hydration levels so that well fed players will be able to sprint longer.

The weight system is going to make it so that the more weight you are carrying, the slower you will move and sprinting will cost you even more stamina points.

All this, and more, has already been confirmed!!!

Something about this, i have little faith it will be good.

[Buakaw 274]

They will release stamina brother. It will probably be in along with many more stances, working hold breath, adjusted sway of the gun etc with the first iteration  of the new player controller.

However as long as there is 3rd person the game can hardly be called hardcore, let alone survival, let alone horror. There is nothing horror about seeing your enemy miles away while being hidden behind obstacles, the only horror is for the other guy to die in an instant without knowing what hit him.

Unfortunately Miscreated followed BIs footsteps in making the crucial mistake of giving players the choice of 3rd person. Now everyone loves it and they dont want to go back, naming reasons such as "I like seeing my character". The truth is, most people are afraid of fair engagements and they enjoy the third person abuse and the safety it gives them. I've participated for a while and am fed up with it and how it dictates the meta. It still baffles me how any developer could think it is a good idea to have 3rd person in a game like this.

Hicks mentioned he is "considering" forcing 1pp on EXP servers... with all due respect, that doesnt give much hope. Enforcing 1PP all the way would be for the greater good of this game and for future survival games to come.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Buakaw

[TheHappyMile 30]

12 hours ago, FlimFlamm said:

You might have missed the devs talking about this, but they have done so a few times.

Right now "sprint" or "stamina" is unlimited, but when the new "player controller" (term for programming code related to character control) is complete they are going to add a bunch of mechanics that will accomplish what you're after.

Stamina is going to be limited instead of unlimited, so if you try sprinting for too long your character will slow down and enter a very strong "winded" state. Stamina levels will probably be affected by nourishment and hydration levels so that well fed players will be able to sprint longer.

The weight system is going to make it so that the more weight you are carrying, the slower you will move and sprinting will cost you even more stamina points.

All this, and more, has already been confirmed!!!

I know that they confirmed stamina.

I missed the other things, but it's cool that they confirmed it. Some of it is pretty obvious to be honest.

But will they reduce the actual jogging speed? 14km/h is still too fast. And do they really confirmed different speeds due to the character-conditions? Would be awesome! 

 

 

5 hours ago, Buakaw said:

However as long as there is 3rd person the game can hardly be called hardcore, let alone survival, let alone horror. There is nothing horror about seeing your enemy miles away while being hidden behind obstacles, the only horror is for the other guy to die in an instant without knowing what hit him.

I'm pro 1stP only. 

There's not much horror in there actually.

I think DayZ 1stP only at all would show the people what this game want's to be. The flame and hate will be huge xD.

 

 

[Lexman61 78]

Buakaw is completely right on this issue.

It's paradoxical that, while many players ask for more "realistic" game features (I wonder when toilet needs will be included!), they are totally OK with 3rd person playing style which is utterly unrealistic.

Unfortunately, as Buakaw states, it's probably too late to "abolish" the 3rd person option as too many players are used to this way of playing. 

Let's not turn DayZ into a boring  "survival simulator" .

[stinkenheim 249]

6 hours ago, Buakaw said:

They will release stamina brother. It will probably be in along with many more stances, working hold breath, adjusted sway of the gun etc with the first iteration  of the new player controller.

However as long as there is 3rd person the game can hardly be called hardcore, let alone survival, let alone horror. There is nothing horror about seeing your enemy miles away while being hidden behind obstacles, the only horror is for the other guy to die in an instant without knowing what hit him.

Unfortunately Miscreated followed BIs footsteps in making the crucial mistake of giving players the choice of 3rd person. Now everyone loves it and they dont want to go back, naming reasons such as "I like seeing my character". The truth is, most people are afraid of fair engagements and they enjoy the third person abuse and the safety it gives them. I've participated for a while and am fed up with it and how it dictates the meta. It still baffles me how any developer could think it is a good idea to have 3rd person in a game like this.

Hicks mentioned he is "considering" forcing 1pp on EXP servers... with all due respect, that doesnt give much hope. Enforcing 1PP all the way would be for the greater good of this game and for future survival games to come.

Please can we not turn this into a 3 vs 1pp debate as it has nothing to do with the op's question of movement speed and stamina.

 

To the OP, I remember reading somewhere that the devs were going to be reducing movement speed but we're waiting for several other systems to be in place first so don't panic, movement speed and stamina will be adjusted in the future. 

[St. Jimmy 1631]

I wonder how smooth animation translation/change they can make with the new animation system? Would be awesome if the max jog and sprinting speeds gets reduced by how much you carry and how much you've used your stamina, so you can't sprint after a certain point. The animation should also change to fit the animation speed, because Arma showed that only slowing the same animation with the character speed doesn't look too good. Elevation and ground under the feet should also play a big role in this. Then maybe the days of survived and run could improve stamina a bit.

 

Average joe in modern day can run about 13km/h for 12mins without any gear in a pretty even ground and he is totally exhausted and collapsing after that. Add any gear to that and it's even less or slower. 8km/h jog speed should be a nice compromise speed in game so a gearless guy can jog for a longer time without getting exhausted for some time.

Walking should be the preferred movement in game to make the Chernarus feel bigger and more awesome. 225km2 isn't after all  that big of an area if you can and will just run through the area constantly. Walking should consume much less water and energy than it currently does to make it even the best option in game. I measured and reported how bad the walking in game is in energy consumption . It's better to actually jog and sprinting is also good. Walking is freaking horrible. That will get fixed but it should really be then so it matters a lot if you just walk.

 

Before any new guy here comes and say that the game is in alpha, we know it. Feedback is important in alpha.

[TheHappyMile 30]

2 hours ago, Lexman61 said:

Buakaw is completely right on this issue.

It's paradoxical that, while many players ask for more "realistic" game features (I wonder when toilet needs will be included!), they are totally OK with 3rd person playing style which is utterly unrealistic.

Unfortunately, as Buakaw states, it's probably too late to "abolish" the 3rd person option as too many players are used to this way of playing. 

Let's not turn DayZ into a boring  "survival simulator" .

I do not think it's too late.

Question is - what means boring? Survival means not action all day but survival. Movemnetspeed reduction is an important point to bring in more survival. 1stP is another.

 

1 hour ago, St. Jimmy said:

Average joe in modern day can run about 13km/h for 12mins without any gear in a pretty even ground and he is totally exhausted and collapsing after that. Add any gear to that and it's even less or slower. 8km/h jog speed should be a nice compromise speed in game so a gearless guy can jog for a longer time without getting exhausted for some time.

Walking should be the preferred movement in game to make the Chernarus feel bigger and more awesome. 225km2 isn't after all  that big of an area if you can and will just run through the area constantly. Walking should consume much less water and energy than it currently does to make it even the best option in game. I measured and reported how bad the walking in game is in energy consumption . It's better to actually jog and sprinting is also good. Walking is freaking horrible. That will get fixed but it should really be then so it matters a lot if you just walk.

I think that jogging is ok as the standard movement. With 8km - the world will feel big.

Speed dependent on all the factors of the Character is of course important. As i wrote - a sick character should not be able to compete with a healthy one in speed. 

[Parazight 1594]

There's no way they're going to remove 3PP.  That would be the most asinine business decision in the history of forever. 

Regarding movement speed, it's how it is for a reason. It's alpha. All modes of transportation haven't been implemented yet. People need to be able to move around in order to report bugs across the whole map. Everyone else on these forums and the development team understands this.  Everyone except the OP knows they're going to adjust player speed during the BETA stage because that's the smart thing to do. 

So yes, player speed needs balancing, but not yet. 

[Buakaw 274]

30 minutes ago, Parazight said:

That would be the most asinine business decision in the history of forever. 

 

Changing the game for the better and following up on their own game premisse (survival hardcore) is hardly an "asinine business decision". The fact that you wouldn't like it doesn't make it an "asinine business decision".

PS: Your reply is futile, OP's question has been answered already.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Buakaw

[Parazight 1594]

4 hours ago, Buakaw said:

Changing the game for the better and following up on their own game premisse (survival hardcore) is hardly an "asinine business decision". The fact that you wouldn't like it doesn't make it an "asinine business decision".

PS: Your reply is futile, OP's question has been answered already.

Haha. Seriously, wtf. Stop with the ridiculous assumptions.

I love 1PP.

BI isn't going to give up on 3PP because of the incoming revenue it generates. It's obvious to anyone over the age of 15 that forcing 1PP only will result in less copies sold. 

"Hardcore Survival" is just a couple of words used to describe the genre that the game falls into. Don't fool yourself into believing that survival will ever be difficult. It never has been, and never will be, across any sandbox MMO, now or anytime in the future.  The devs know this. This is why trying to make the game about 'hardcore survival' is absolutely laughable.  It's okay if you don't believe me. You'll just have to learn the hard way, broken-hearted. 

Take for example, "survival games" that hicks runs. Not at all about survival, is it?  All about the pvp.  You know why no one ever complains about the name? Because survival is a joke concept.  End game will always be videos and pvp (like it is right now) because survival, infected, and PVE are pathetic concepts as central driving gameplay.

Futile to post on forums, you say?  Is this your first visit on the Internet?

Edited August 7, 2016 by Parazight

[Buakaw 274]

21 hours ago, Parazight said:

I love 1PP.

BI isn't going to give up on 3PP because of the incoming revenue it generates. It's obvious to anyone over the age of 15 that forcing 1PP only will result in less copies sold. 

"Hardcore Survival" is just a couple of words used to describe the genre that the game falls into. Don't fool yourself into believing that survival will ever be difficult. It never has been, and never will be, across any sandbox MMO, now or anytime in the future.  The devs know this. This is why trying to make the game about 'hardcore survival' is absolutely laughable.  It's okay if you don't believe me. You'll just have to learn the hard way, broken-hearted. 

Take for example, "survival games" that hicks runs. Not at all about survival, is it?  All about the pvp.  You know why no one ever complains about the name? Because survival is a joke concept.  End game will always be videos and pvp (like it is right now) because survival, infected, and PVE are pathetic concepts as central driving gameplay.

Futile to post on forums, you say?  Is this your first visit on the Internet?

Maybe forcing 1PP isn't the option at this point. Tho I don't see why it would affect the sales much, if with the new player controller 1st person was actually a pleasure to play. Immersion and balance should be top priorities for a game like this and I think the community could adapt to a large increase in 1pp. Maybe not a force, but in an ideal world current 1pp and 3pp population would switch places, 3pp being reserved for the dedicated RPers and PVErs more.

And if the community, of which I assume most didn't even try 1pp nor think about the implications 3pp has on the meta, realizes how good 1PP would be, I don't think it would affect the sales negatively too much at all.

You can hardly say 3pp creates revenue, it is the premisse or the quality of the game and the community feedback that creates a demand. New players would hardly be affected by a 1pp force, in fact they would jump straight into a much better version of the game and probably be prone to more positive criticism. So yeah, that argument is one you can't make imo :P

 

Edited August 8, 2016 by Buakaw

[ebrim 998]

21 hours ago, Parazight said:

Haha. Seriously, wtf. Stop with the ridiculous assumptions.

I love 1PP.

BI isn't going to give up on 3PP because of the incoming revenue it generates. It's obvious to anyone over the age of 15 that forcing 1PP only will result in less copies sold. 

"Hardcore Survival" is just a couple of words used to describe the genre that the game falls into. Don't fool yourself into believing that survival will ever be difficult. It never has been, and never will be, across any sandbox MMO, now or anytime in the future.  The devs know this. This is why trying to make the game about 'hardcore survival' is absolutely laughable.  It's okay if you don't believe me. You'll just have to learn the hard way, broken-hearted. 

Take for example, "survival games" that hicks runs. Not at all about survival, is it?  All about the pvp.  You know why no one ever complains about the name? Because survival is a joke concept.  End game will always be videos and pvp (like it is right now) because survival, infected, and PVE are pathetic concepts as central driving gameplay.

Futile to post on forums, you say?  Is this your first visit on the Internet?

End game is such an inappropriate concept for a sandbox. I can survive for two weeks, abandon my camp and strip down to my undies and rush off to the opposite side of the map to put myself together again. Am I still end game? Did I leave the end game? Is it a place? Or is it just a fuzzy concept used by some players to describe what their own goals are? If the latter is the case, as it seems to be, then talking about violence and videos as "end game" is not an objective statement at all.

The survival mechanics in DayZ, as they are, exist as something to track as you navigate the sandbox. They will rarely seem like a gunfight because they aren't a gunfight and serve an entirely different purpose. As these mechanics develop they will just lead you to have to make more significant choices - will those often be life or death choices in an immediate context like in a gunfight? Probably not - nor really should they be. But they do make the game, whatever it is for you, more interesting.

I think the OP is rather correct that this game will be significantly improved as planned stamina systems start to come online.

As for the whole 3pp/1pp debate, I used to fall pretty firmly on the 1pp side, I'm much more ambivalent now. I can think of some really cool things server providers could do with 1pp only servers but I think 3pp/1pp enabled servers also have a legitimate role (no, not just pvp).

 

----

 

And just to blab a bit about speed and stamina being important. This is a change that will make almost every aspect of the game more challenging. In effect by reducing player speed you are achieving something very similar to lowering items spawns. You are making safe water more rare. You're encouraging more locality and conflict over specific places as it becomes more expensive to simply move on to another spot.

Edited August 8, 2016 by ebrim

[Wili 156]

Also players are running full speed after being shot like nothing happened, this need to change imo.

Regarding 1st person vs 3rd person, I think Bohemia made a huge mistake making Arma series with 3rd person in the first place. It's like putting all the hard work they put into realism and immersion into the bin, Is like playing using wallhacks...

 

 

 

[FlimFlamm 509]

Regarding the 3pp/1pp debate, I also used to argue for 1pp only, but as it turns out there's really no issue with allowing servers to choose between forcing 1pp and enabling 3pp. There are plenty of like minded players who play on 1pp only servers, and these are the servers I tend to join.

[Wili 156]

Most part of the day you can find full 1st person servers but at this hour for example servers are mostly empty, I hope when Dayz improves there will be more players playing first person.

When servers can handle more players it would be nice because there would be some hours when the server hits 80/100 players but even late at night servers probably will still have 50 players or so, now it has 60 players in the afternoon but late at night it drops to 20 or 30, even public servers gets empty eventually.

[-Gews- 7443]

On 8/7/2016 at 6:40 AM, Buakaw said:

Changing the game for the better and following up on their own game premisse (survival hardcore) is hardly an "asinine business decision".

It would be an asinine business decision. Last I checked (counted 2,000+ servers) roughly 95% of players are using 3rd person. A principled stance, a good gameplay decision (in my opinion), but an asinine business decision.

 

[sneakydude 480]

2 hours ago, Wili said:

Most part of the day you can find full 1st person servers but at this hour for example servers are mostly empty, I hope when Dayz improves there will be more players playing first person.

When servers can handle more players it would be nice because there would be some hours when the server hits 80/100 players but even late at night servers probably will still have 50 players or so, now it has 60 players in the afternoon but late at night it drops to 20 or 30, even public servers gets empty eventually.

Right now we cant even handle 10 people playing without some warp features.

Hope .61 fixes this so all players can enjoy the game.

Possible fps lock might improve it for some.

[Tigermonk 140]

On 7-8-2016 at 6:18 AM, Buakaw said:

They will release stamina brother. It will probably be in along with many more stances, working hold breath, adjusted sway of the gun etc with the first iteration  of the new player controller.

However as long as there is 3rd person the game can hardly be called hardcore, let alone survival, let alone horror. There is nothing horror about seeing your enemy miles away while being hidden behind obstacles, the only horror is for the other guy to die in an instant without knowing what hit him.

Unfortunately Miscreated followed BIs footsteps in making the crucial mistake of giving players the choice of 3rd person. Now everyone loves it and they dont want to go back, naming reasons such as "I like seeing my character". The truth is, most people are afraid of fair engagements and they enjoy the third person abuse and the safety it gives them. I've participated for a while and am fed up with it and how it dictates the meta. It still baffles me how any developer could think it is a good idea to have 3rd person in a game like this.

Hicks mentioned he is "considering" forcing 1pp on EXP servers... with all due respect, that doesnt give much hope. Enforcing 1PP all the way would be for the greater good of this game and for future survival games to come.

'Enforcing 1PP all the way would be for the greater good of this game and for future survival games to come.'

based on what? your personal opinion?
ENFORCING stuff is never good.. since they have a limited playerbase already... and are MILES off from even being 'finished' I don't mind the 3rd person

-gives you more knowledge of your surroundings..
-makes spotting animals a bit easier..
-plus the fact that things like melee are about as broken as can be..

have you ever TRIED taking out Z's with a baseball bat or something remotely melee related? (more than 2)
I have.. and I can tell you from personal experience 'it sucks' because they glitch all over the place and you have to wait a 1-2 seconds before your next strike..
goodluck with your first person when dynamic spawning comes around
did I mention shooting guns by that time? (fully geared knucklehead shoots his SVD in elektro, gets his head ripped off by 30 Z's.. goodluck seeing those coming in first person.) 

sure don't get me wrong.. I play on RP servers.. so 1st person is actually fun while 'talking' to people..
but so many things are not yet in the game (that should have been ages ago!) that even 1st person to me feels about as immersive as a wet sponge, while trying to sleep

their 'taking' about it... but so far.. I've not seen anything that tells me otherwise than 'talking' 

[TheHappyMile 30]

On 9. August 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tigermonk said:

have you ever TRIED taking out Z's with a baseball bat or something remotely melee related? (more than 2)
I have.. and I can tell you from personal experience 'it sucks' because they glitch all over the place and you have to wait a 1-2 seconds before your next strike..

I'm playing 1stP only and it is possible

 

On 9. August 2016 at 10:10 AM, Tigermonk said:

-gives you more knowledge of your surroundings..

The most important argument AGAINST 3rdP. Looking over walls/around corners ruins the game by making infected totally 

As well as PvP becomes a farce. 1stP gives you less overview but more thrill at all...

[Buakaw 274]

On 9.8.2016 at 2:35 AM, -Gews- said:

It would be an asinine business decision. Last I checked (counted 2,000+ servers) roughly 95% of players are using 3rd person. A principled stance, a good gameplay decision (in my opinion), but an asinine business decision.

 

Since 1st person arguably makes for a better experience (in a finished Dayz) it could even help the reputation and thus sales longterm to put 1st person in the spotlight and i.e. to make it the default for like 50% of public hives. That would be a solution that is certainly better than strictly enforcing it, which - yeah - is too extreme. But after years of getting players accustomed to the 3pp abuse lifestyle I think it would take some drastic measures to convert people.

Also BI could be looking at further solutions to make 3pp less abusive (such as players not rendering if they are not within your actual characters line of sight, which seems to be the best solution so far).

But yeah, it seems BI hosts / rents a lot of these servers from a number of providers or is it actually the providers doing it on their own to advertise themselves?

Edited August 24, 2016 by Buakaw

[sneakydude 480]

23 hours ago, Buakaw said:

Since 1st person arguably makes for a better experience (in a finished Dayz) it could even help the reputation and thus sales longterm to put 1st person in the spotlight and i.e. to make it the default for like 50% of public hives. That would be a solution that is certainly better than strictly enforcing it, which - yeah - is too extreme. But after years of getting players accustomed to the 3pp abuse lifestyle I think it would take some drastic measures to convert people.

Also BI could be looking at further solutions to make 3pp less abusive (such as players not rendering if they are not within your actual characters line of sight, which seems to be the best solution so far).

But yeah, it seems BI hosts / rents a lot of these servers from a number of providers or is it actually the providers doing it on their own to advertise themselves?

What your saying is for public game play, for Private hives it will be pretty much wide open for mods and 3rd/1st so unless someone makes a custom 1p server with different mod ideas your still only going to have limits on what you wish for.

It will eventually end up a lot like arma series, it just depends on the admins on what they want to offer up. Don't get to attached to ideas, because it can change without warning any time. 1st person wont be the only server available no matter how much you believe it will be, better experience or not the norm today is 1st/3rd.. in the Arma series.

[Buakaw 274]

If you read my post I suggested BI could have half their official servers be 1st person, not all of them. It is up to them to move away from this "norm" and encourage people to try it out. Im not attached to anything really, atm I am just waiting for a bigger content patch before laying hands on the game.