The 'war on snipers'

[Rauchsauger 94]

I think you're all on crack. In DayZ, you are a civilian. Not a trained, experienced Sniper who has spent months and years being trained by a military weapons expert. You are a cold, hungry and afraid civilian. You can 'rp' someone else but these weapons and mechanics are designed to make combat difficult and problematic. Not every shot is square or has full body penetration. And yes this means that because you 'think' you shot true doesn't mean you did. 

 

Distance, elevation, wind, weather, movement, inexperience and though a weapon says 'Pristine' doesn't make it a weapon oiled and maintained in a military armory by men and women who do nothing else but maintain them. 

 

As I've said before: DayZ is not intended to be a Mod clone. It is a survival game in which firearms are one aspect. Not the only one. If all you're playing for is KOSing everyone you see with firearms you're probably not going to get what you want out of this game when it's all done. And quite frankly I'm kinda tired of these threads. Sometimes I can shoot pretty accurately at 800 meters and sometimes I can't hit crap within 100 meters. However whenever you fire at someone, you always give up your position and make your presence known. In a survival game these are things that I do not like to do unless I have no other choice. Once they make zombies even more difficult and pack hungry for noisy KOSers, this game will finally become what it should. And not what your run and gunners 'think' it should be. 

 

No one is a sniper, you're all just civilians with a rifle that can snipe people, animals and zeds. 

 

 

Bleh. They can make sniping hard by simulating realism. That then can be learned. The lazy randomizing is nothing but a clutch implemented for the qq given that sniping was very easy.

It is a solution to a problem but is is really the wrong one.

 

Also nice rant...totally off topic since snipers are in no way run and gun...

 

Also that weapon sway on a _rested_ weapon is plain stupid.

Let us rest a weapon and then have a rested weapon a limited movement radius like when you deploy a MG in Day of Defeat

Edited September 9, 2014 by Rauchsauger

[General Zod 1118]

Also that weapon sway on a _rested_ weapon is plain stupid.

Let us rest a weapon and then have a rested weapon a limited movement radius like when you deploy a MG in Day of Defeat

Except there is no _rested_ weapon in game, for now it can't be done. 

[Bororm 1156]

Sniping is pretty easy when it's working properly and snipers are the easiest enemy to predict.  The exception being really good ones, but those are the exception and pretty damn rare.  99% of the time, the guys gonna be in the same old spot as every other guy before him.

 

Also, this game is not played in a vacuum.  1v1 scenarios don't matter.  The sniper shooting away might have a huge advantage over you, but who's to say some goof with an axe isn't sneaking up on him at the same time due to all the noise he's making?

 

The only things I'd change are weapon damage in general being so affected by "regular" clothes (non armor), and cleaning up lag/desync etc because bullet travel time is largely affected by server lag as well as funky animations/sliding/desync makes hitting moving targets very unpredictable.  Sway isn't really an issue besides the current bug where being hit at all gives you shitty sway.  Use a splint, even if you've only been hit once, and your sway is fine right now.

 

Sniping isn't hard, it's just buggy like everything else.  When it's working properly (which it has at various times in the SA) it's arguably too easy, like in arma 2 and 3.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Bororm

[Rauchsauger 94]

Except there is no _rested_ weapon in game, for now it can't be done. 

 

Go prone - rested weapon

kneel near a parapet - rested weapon

and so on

[Etherimp 1323]

Sniping is pretty easy when it's working properly and snipers are the easiest enemy to predict.  The exception being really good ones, but those are the exception and pretty damn rare.  99% of the time, the guys gonna be in the same old spot as every other guy before him.

 

Also, this game is not played in a vacuum.  1v1 scenarios don't matter.  The sniper shooting away might have a huge advantage over you, but who's to say some goof with an axe isn't sneaking up on him at the same time due to all the noise he's making?

 

The only things I'd change are weapon damage in general being so affected by "regular" clothes (non armor), and cleaning up lag/desync etc because bullet travel time is largely affected by server lag as well as funky animations/sliding/desync makes hitting moving targets very unpredictable.  Sway isn't really an issue besides the current bug where being hit at all gives you shitty sway.  Use a splint, even if you've only been hit once, and your sway is fine right now.

 

Sniping isn't hard, it's just buggy like everything else.  When it's working properly (which it has at various times in the SA) it's arguably too easy, like in arma 2 and 3.

 

 

Lately I've been toting a mosin w/ LRS and a Sawed off Shotgun... Sawed off shotgun has yet to fail me in getting pesky axe wielders off my nuts.. Even blew away an SKS guy at about 20 meters while he and his friend tried to gun me down.

[Katana67 2907]

A complex shooting system would solve alot of the games fundenmental problems though.

 

But I don't think sniping is a problem because it's easy.

 

I think it's a problem because it doesn't require a lot of investment on the part of the player to acquire the ability to snipe effectively. In other words "everyone can be a sniper, at any time" if they wish. I want that not to be the case, by making the process of getting a fully-functional sniper rifle and shooting position (as well as tangential issues, like having zombies be a deterrent to firing a weapon over and over again in the same spot) much more involved.

 

I agree that the actual act of long-range shooting could use a bit of a bump in terms of the overall skill level it takes to snipe. But it doesn't fix anything if everyone can still be a sniper, at any time if they wish... if the bar is raised. People get good eventually. They cannot, however, speed up the gearing process through legitimate means.

[GhostDivision (DayZ) 22]

+1

The weapon sway is real.

 

Pretty sure it's l2p issue here. I have no problem sniping people 400+ meters away.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Go prone - rested weapon

kneel near a parapet - rested weapon

and so on

 

prone rested - not unless you're firing below horizon.  your hand and arm are probably being used as a prop, and the barrel is usually one of the higher parts of the weapon meaning the front will be imbalanced if resting from the rear.  Most hunters use their hat/boot/bag/sacks/branches what not to steady themselves in a firing position, the softer the better.  Having anything underneath your weapon is better than free-firing, but soft things are preferable because they deform to the impulse.  The ground is mostly rigid unless your'e firing from KY jelly pits or foxholes that have been saturated ;).

Firing with your arm as a prop can be just as bad if you're firing a long-arm as your rest is (you) connected to your breath, and the butt in your shoulder is also moving.  Firing from the table at the range requires some degree of concentration and control of your bodily functions (breating,heart rate/excitement and further concentration/calculation requirement).  I don't have one so i'm inexperienced in that regard, but using the range rifles or friends' in the past and it's not a cakewalk.  Shotguns are less sensitive in this regard, pistols are intermediate from what i can tell.

Even when I use the sled, the weapon likes to move somewhat because of my trigger hand and the butt at shoulder are connected to my breath and any other motions.

 

I wouldn't really want to be firing my $1k+ rifle from hard stone for the most part, nor something that I need to survive.  But then i like them shiny and without scratches.  This probably wears off after you bash in a few skulls with the butt.

Edited September 9, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[Rauchsauger 94]

prone rested - not unless you're firing below horizon.  your hand and arm are probably being used as a prop, and the barrel is usually one of the higher parts of the weapon meaning the front will be imbalanced if resting from the rear.  Most hunters use their hat/boot/bag/sacks/branches what not to steady themselves in a firing position, the softer the better.  Having anything underneath your weapon is better than free-firing, but soft things are preferable because they deform to the impulse.  The ground is mostly rigid unless your'e firing from KY jelly pits or foxholes that have been saturated ;).

Firing with your arm as a prop can be just as bad if you're firing a long-arm as your rest is (you) connected to your breath, and the butt in your shoulder is also moving.  Firing from the table at the range requires some degree of concentration and control of your bodily functions (breating,heart rate/excitement and further concentration/calculation requirement).  I don't have one so i'm inexperienced in that regard, but using the range rifles or friends' in the past and it's not a cakewalk.  Shotguns are less sensitive in this regard, pistols are intermediate from what i can tell.

Even when I use the sled, the weapon likes to move somewhat because of my trigger hand and the butt at shoulder are connected to my breath and any other motions.

 

I wouldn't really want to be firing my $1k+ rifle from hard stone for the most part, nor something that I need to survive.  But then i like them shiny and without scratches.  This probably wears off after you bash in a few skulls with the butt.

 

 

We do not talk about zero sway at all - it is the amount a "rested" weapon has at this time. And given what goes down in DayZ the guns you would find would look bad.

but a scratched stock does not equal a damaged barrel or receiver

Edited September 9, 2014 by Rauchsauger

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Yeah.  You're correct.  The amount of abuse you'd need to put into the weapon firing like that would need to be rather extreme to change the ballistic mechanics of the gun, and you probably wouldn't get that from a good 'lifetime' of use, but wear and tear may take its toll eventually to some degree.  That said, I feel that the balance and stability part of my point stands.  Damaging the stock and butt (assuming you really went and cracked it) may mess with your stability though.

As an aside, if you're slamming 6 rounds of .45 down the revolver in quick succession you may warp the barrel, and given the 'pristine' standard of the weapons, you really should be cleaning them after each shot until they become 'worn' but now i'm delving down into realism vs authenticity territory ;)

edit: anecdotal support (unqualified)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247904

wanted to try getting into this one, but seems the book is locked to limited browse. :( want page257 f

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-gmdwdFCsLkC&pg=PA410&lpg=PA410&dq=firing+firearm+from+hard+surface+-at+hard+surface&source=bl&ots=ppYI2nuMdh&sig=I7GOmBcTmIb8H8ulmSgUwLb25bM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ffEOVICWOobjuQSN3IDwBQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=257f&f=false

but from it's listing in appendix, it sounds like the performance of the round on impact with a hard surface, not the effect of firing from that point.

most google searches just send me pages telling me not to fire at hard surfaces or water... L:(

 

That said, the physics theory should stand that a hard surface will not dampen any kind of shock or recoil from the firing of a round, but may provide a more stable platform pre-firing (keeping in min that if it doesn't give, force applied before firing eg: breath/arm twitch may be translated to your weapon, particularly if not using a bipod or other device with built-in suspension).  hope i didn't go full retart :(

 

a more in-depth empirical test of two rifles on soft and hard surfaces.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-51-the-effects-of-a-rifle-rest-on-groups/

notice that in every test, the examiner 'cheated' in that their arm was resting on a softer surface (pink towel) than the hard table.

Edited September 9, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[Jex 1104]

No it won't. Every weapon has "random" dispersion - the only difference is that in a simulation you use a few pseudo-random numbers while in reality there is a complex dynamic system with myriads of parameters. I don't want a complex dynamic system with myriads of parameters in game as it will eat away my hardware resourcesusing up performance that could be used for more important ingame elements fot the sole reason of being able to say "its not random dispersion" - the effect will be exactly the same.

 

But I also don't want an overly simplified system that changes ordinary survivors that found a sniper rifle lying around into magic supersoldiers that fire with pinpoint accuracy regardless of weapon. Not only does it hurt the gameplay (which has sniping as an element but not as its main purpose) its also by no means authentic. All this would do is giving an unrealistic advantage (pinpoint accuracy) to a group that doesn't need it (snipers) for no reason at all.

 

The guy in the video is a trained sniper with a dedicated sniper rifle and spotter that set a record with the shot. Thats not what he (let alone an ordinary person) could do on a regular basis. The fact that he hit twice over ~200% maximum effective range (an average person hitting 50% of his/her shots*) did not mean he had a 100% chance of hitting. And the exact point of impact was indeed "random". Two shots are hardly enough data here (MOA of an average AWM?).

 

*Which means my suggestion above is most likely a buff relative to reality.

 

The point here is that he hit, not where he hit. Right now in Dayz you're not even getting body parts at range. I don't agree that sniping should be easy, add in the complexity and make it a skill you have to learn. Why do you think a more complex ballistics model will cripple your PC?

[Jex 1104]

I am excited about this game. My sons and I have been using it as a way to learn what to expect if a breakdown in society ever were to happen. It has taught us that we can only really trust ourselves and all others will be suspect. It has taught us that when scavenging, one of us had better be on lookout. It has taught us to stay inside the tree line when traveling and to spend a long time observing a town before moving in to get supplies. We have also learned that when crossing a large open area you should run like hell in a random zig-zag fashion and have others covering you.

Personally I want sniping to be as realistic as possible. I want to have to be on my guard and I also want to use the game to learn how to deal with snipers. I want this because I want to learn this in an environment where I can respawn.

By the way, I have trained in the use of firearms and in the prone position; even an AR-15 with open sights can easily hit a 2 foot by 2 foot iron plate at 400 yard. Body shots with an AR are easy at 200 yards.  A scoped, bolt action rifle with either a bipod or using your backpack as a rest can easily hit a man sized target at 600 yards as long as the rifle is sub MOA. With proper technique, there is no sway in the supported prone position.

I want sniping to be “unfair”. I want the game to be realistic. I will travel in a way that is hard to hit and I will only stop under cover. If a sniper takes a shot and give away his position I will either flee, lay a trap or stalk and kill him. It is all part of the game.

 

This game is NOTHING like what reality will be, not even close.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Pretty sure it's l2p issue here. I have no problem sniping people 400+ meters away.

Neither do I. If you'd read the thread, you'd know we're discussing 600+ meters. It's a crapshoot with the figure eight, totally unrealistic weapon sway. It's less like you're playing a military simulator and more like you're playing a shitty flash game on bored.com.

[Jex 1104]

A complex shooting system would solve alot of the games fundenmental problems though.

 

DMRs would once again be viable additions without having the community throw a rage fit due to how easy they are to use.

 

No longer will people complain about a 12 year old sniper killing them from half a mile away.

 

While I am not saying it has to be as complicated as something like this.

 

Even simple wind and angular scope adjustments would solve alot of the problems with sniping while still having it be an enjoyable experience.

 

Long distance shooting should never be something a 12 year old or a novice picks up and masters within seconds especially not in a game with perma death.

 

Personally I think it should be as close to rl as possible which is complicated. If you don't want to put in the hours learning it then don't, but it means you can't snipe and if you do ever get hit at 800m whilst you're on a spacehopper racing over the hills, you'll at least know s/he earned the shot unlike in arma 2 where sniping was way too easy ;)

[Evil Minion 943]

The point here is that he hit, not where he hit. Right now in Dayz you're not even getting body parts at range. I don't agree that sniping should be easy, add in the complexity and make it a skill you have to learn. Why do you think a more complex ballistics model will cripple your PC?

Thats a matter of amount then - the point is to have different effective ranges for different weapons and them being unreliable outside of that range. As I wrote above knowing your effective range and applying this knowledge should allow you to hit your target without worrying too much about dispersion. So if you have a Mosin aiming at the center of someones chest 800 meters away, already having factored in all deterministic effects you should indeed hit his chest but the exact point of impact could be in the upper chest or in the lower chest due to dispersion - or in the arms if your target turned sideways. However, dispersion should not cause a miss or headshot here.

 

And a complex ballistic noise system would simply eat up resources without having any effect on gameplay - you would still get what seems to be random dispersion, just that it would originate in some complex calculation instead of a simple random numbers and the counter to this would still be getting close enough for your weapon to be reliable. Those resources could be used elsewhere - for example to create a complex ballisticsbias system that factors in wind, weather, temperature, your weapons intrinsic bias etc. Things you would actually notice.

[Jex 1104]

Thats a matter of amount then - the point is to have different effective ranges for different weapons and them being unreliable outside of that range. As I wrote above knowing your effective range and applying this knowledge should allow you to hit your target without worrying too much about dispersion. So if you have a Mosin aiming at the center of someones chest 800 meters away, already having factored in all deterministic effects you should indeed hit his chest but the exact point of impact could be in the upper chest or in the lower chest due to dispersion - or in the arms if your target turned sideways. However, dispersion should not cause a miss or headshot here.

 

And a complex ballistic noise system would simply eat up resources without having any effect on gameplay - you would still get what seems to be random dispersion, just that it would originate in some complex calculation instead of a simple random numbers and the counter to this would still be getting close enough for your weapon to be reliable. Those resources could be used elsewhere - for example to create a complex ballisticsbias system that factors in wind, weather, temperature, your weapons intrinsic bias etc. Things you would actually notice.

 

Yes that's what I've been talking about lol - I think we got mixed up somewhere. Basically factor in environmental effects and make long range shooting hard. We want realsim in ballistics and don't want the devs to come up with some crap system in it's place :) This way only people that practice shooting are going to be any good and then a percentage of them with be KOS'ers. I would learn to shoot, it's something to aim for but I'm not going to go around shooting people. If I then got shot, at least I would know the person put time and effort into it and it wasn't some noob ;)

[comikz 218]

People tend to forget what Sniping is, it's all about concealing oneself and landing shots on your target(s) from a long distance, it's one of my favored play styles because unlike CQC that tends to favor who camps the hardest, and who is able to view through a wall to see when someones coming the best, as a Sniper I am able to view people from a distance and eliminate them without having to get into a situation that favors the aforementioned things. I like being challenged with the sway and other things such as bullet drop and environmental conditions such as wind/rain/fog, but the amount of sway when your prone and rested is far too much, and the sway in general is far too unpredictable to the point where a players skill level matters not, and the luckiest player prevails, I'm all up for a challenge but I would like more reward for learning how to calculate for bullet drop, weather, and leading a moving target. Hitting my target at X meters should be about personal skill and not who ever stroked their lucky rabbits foot harder, lol...

 

And for those who prefer CQC, is it fair for you to feel it necessary to push for Sniping to be abolished and for your playstyle to be enforced, that's like the whole Bandit vs. Hero play style, and the people who have problems with either side of that shenanigans...

 

You shouldn't have to only protect yourself from someone who's within 50 meters of you barking over direct, you should have to think about the dude 400 meters+ away zeroing in on your head, and how you do that is using your brain and putting some solid cover between you and predictable sniping positions, such as tree lines and tall buildings like apartments, ect.

 

Making this game too casual will drive away the true competitive players who strived for a challenge when playing and left because it's too easy now...

[gibonez 3633]

Personally I think it should be as close to rl as possible which is complicated. If you don't want to put in the hours learning it then don't, but it means you can't snipe and if you do ever get hit at 800m whilst you're on a spacehopper racing over the hills, you'll at least know s/he earned the shot unlike in arma 2 where sniping was way too easy ;)

 

The ballistic model in the video is so good that I can use my applied ballistic app in real life and it would work in game.

 

now that is real meta gaming.

[MagneticToast 102]

This is what I am talking about when I say you can't make a game as realistic as possible because it will just never happen. It is still going to be arcadey even when they add all of their excessive ideas. Why can't I put my rifle or any weapon on a ledge or wall to steady it? Will this be in? Doubtful. Same with climbing trees. Can't put any items in a first aid kit either that aren't medical supplies...because that is realistic right? :)

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//.. . I'm not advocating removing sniping. But it IS AN IMBALANCED GAME MECHANIC. There is no counter-play for it.

..//..

 

counter-sniper tactics

 

locate

counter sniper

rush

pincer movement

move to cover

etc

 

.. same as it ever was

Edited September 9, 2014 by pilgrim

[Jex 1104]

This is what I am talking about when I say you can't make a game as realistic as possible because it will just never happen. It is still going to be arcadey even when they add all of their excessive ideas. Why can't I put my rifle or any weapon on a ledge or wall to steady it? Will this be in? Doubtful. Same with climbing trees. Can't put any items in a first aid kit either that aren't medical supplies...because that is realistic right? :)

 

Nobody is talking about making the game as realistic as possible. Maybe you came here from another thread?

[Rocklin 0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKO3IJ4cdqI

[gibonez 3633]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKO3IJ4cdqI

 

Yea using custom 200 grain hand loaded ammo , plus the mosin is worked on.

 

A stock mosin , using surplus ammo like that found in game will not be hitting anything consistently at 600 yards.

 

Key word is consistently yes you can hit it but not every time.

[KrackProphet 28]

Do you people want realistic? Then your "civilian" character should be hitting nothing with that AK/M4 since, you know, they obviously have no training at all. Your character should miss terribly due to not knowing how to use any sights properly. Oh wait, you don't want that do you?

 

I watched this video earlier of a guy saying sniping is too easy as he always waits for a person to stand still in an elevated high traffic area known for snipers. People's bad choices make it look easier than it is. Try hitting a moving target at 700m with the server lag/desync and tell me its easy.

 

We need more sniper options, there's no doubt about it. Right now we have the mosin and it doesn't do the damage it should when you hit and everyone agrees here.

 

Up the damage, reduce the sway while prone with breath held by a bit and make the sway that is there more predictable.

 

Sniping is a valid play style and with the impending implementation of weather effects it will be that much harder. 

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I see this thread is still chugging along full steam ahead. That's unfortunate.

 

Currently, an SKS with a PU Scope is a better alternative than a Mosin with a Long Range Scope. Why? Currently, both 7.62mm variants do the same amount of damage, the SKS is semi-automatic where as the Mosin is bolt-action so it's better at short to medium range and those OSHIT moments, and anything beyond the PU Scope's range requires more luck than skill to hit with the Long Range Scope.

 

I fought an emotional battle for about a month before deciding to pass the Mosin over in favor of the SKS, but I eventually got there. The idea of the Mosin with a pristine Compensator, Long Range Scope and Burlap Wrap is a pretty appealing one in a post-apocalyptic world where survival is paramount. The further you are from your assailant the better, right? Technically, yes. Realistically, no.

 

Just go with the SKS/AKM for now and call it a day. When they fix the damage, then we can talk Mosin. ;3