Ammo Calibration : Poll & Discussion

[stielhandgranate 480]

From Chris Torchia:

 

 

what it comes down to is us really wanting to have the lowest possible number of calibers spawning in the game. Thats why we've only been adding in the most common types (9mm, .45, 12ga, 5.56, 7.62, etc...) and why we've been grouping similar kinds of ammo into one. Its the reason we haven't made a distinction between the mosin, blaze, longhorn, or eventually SVD ammo types. In reality these four are firing two different kinds of 7.62mm rounds but the performance characteristics are more or less the same. There was a time when we weren't even going to delineate between SKS and Mosin ammo but after some "enthusiastic" discussions, 7.62x39 was added (thankfully :)).

So if we add a Makarov pistol, its going to simply fire 9mmP instead 9mmM. If we add an AK74, it'll fire 5.56mm, not 5.45mm. Thats why I haven't added those in. Those of us who are real gun nuts would revolt (but I have a feeling the wider community dosn't give a crap as long as it looks cool :)

 

 

Thoughts? In a game that aims for realism do we (the users) not care about guns being chambered in the right caliber?

[Katana67 2907]

Misleading OP is misleading

 

Also from the quote...

 

"Those of us who are real gun nuts would revolt (but I have a feeling the wider community dosn't give a crap as long as it looks cool" - Chris Torchia.

 

They're doing this, ostensibly, for pragmatic development purposes. Not "realism." Folks have this misconception that DayZ is attempting to mirror "realism" 100%.

 

It's much more practical to just... disagree with the approach in terms of its effect on loot, and therefore gameplay. You can yammer on about realism all you like, doesn't make it relevant to the game at hand (i.e. DayZ).

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

Really? Is it so much to ask for to code different types of ammunition? This isn't some crazy request that has never been done before in the history of video gaming. It makes no sense to add a level of detail such as blood types and heart attacks and try to go the lazy route of having most guns use the same ammo even if their real world counter parts don't. Even your sig that is a quote from Mr. Torchia reads: "gun shops in Russia and in Czech Republic and the massive variety of guns and ammo you can find there.". This game started as a mod from ArmA 2, a game which the devs went to great lengths add depth and realism in the firearms dept. It is very disappointing that the Devs want to try to take the Call of Duty route when it comes to firearms realism.

[terminal_boy 860]

We're still getting different types of poop, right?

[Elle 562]

considering that in the game I usually aim for another player, some lackluster zed or one of those indestructible rabbits I would have to argue about the game going for "realism" since I have never in real life had to shoot at zeds nor have I ever met an indestructible rabbit (we wont talk about shooting other players...) 

 

now that we have that all nice and clear - as an avid player I don't give 2 shits about any supposed "realism" I will however, be furious if I have to sort through 50 different calibers of ammo in the game just because "realism" - you can count me out of your "we" cause all I care about is a game that's fun I don't play em cause they are "real"

[hombrecz 832]

I have yet to see their whole argument as WHY it is a bad thing to have realistic calibers.

And yes, I strongly dislike this "streamlining" of calibers as it feels more fitting to arcade game, not DayZ Standalone, which attracted players based on qualities of DayZ mod.

[The Aquatic Land Walrus 565]

considering that in the game I usually aim for another player, some lackluster zed or one of those indestructible rabbits I would have to argue about the game going for "realism" since I have never in real life had to shoot at zeds nor have I ever met an indestructible rabbit (we wont talk about shooting other players...) 

 

now that we have that all nice and clear - as an avid player I don't give 2 shits about any supposed "realism" I will however, be furious if I have to sort through 50 different calibers of ammo in the game just because "realism" - you can count me out of your "we" cause all I care about is a game that's fun I don't play em cause they are "real"

Most of the "Stereotypical" DayZ players only want the game to be near impossible. I agree with your viewpoint. Games were made to entertain, not to challenge last I checked. At least, that was the philosophy when gaming became mainstream.

[Katana67 2907]

Really? Is it so much to ask for to code different types of ammunition? This isn't some crazy request that has never been done before in the history of video gaming. It makes no sense to add a level of detail such as blood types and heart attacks and try to go the lazy route of having most guns use the same ammo even if their real world counter parts don't. Even your sig that is a quote from Mr. Torchia reads: "gun shops in Russia and in Czech Republic and the massive variety of guns and ammo you can find there.". This game started as a mod from ArmA 2, a game which the devs went to great lengths add depth and realism in the firearms dept. It is very disappointing that the Devs want to try to take the Call of Duty route when it comes to firearms realism.

 

Vitriol and mentioning Call of Duty isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

I'm not saying it's "too much to ask for," I'm saying... you, and the "realism" folks, need to realize WHY they're doing it. It's not for no reason, it's not to betray DayZ's emphasis on "realism" (which was never really true). It's because it's easier, right now, to have ubiquitous calibers.

 

Now, again, you can make the argument that it's a bad decision for gameplay reasons. But "realism" doesn't actually have any tangibles, so it's not really worth discussing in my opinion unless you're making the case that it's beneficial to gameplay.

 

So, you're saying that they can't have blood types and ubiquitous calibers? Why?

 

Listen, I agree, I want the Mosin firing 7.62x54R and I want the AK-74 (whenever they get around to adding it) to fire 5.45x39. But I make the argument that it is detrimental to gameplay and loot balance. Because just sitting there saying it's "unrealistic" isn't a solution. And, I'm not going to sit here and indict the developers as if they're trying to screw the game up, when there are reasons for why they're doing what they're doing. And there are more criteria to judge the game upon, vice ONLY the degree to which the weapons are rendered realistically.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[kimmaz 63]

I think it would be great if extra rare/good/special rifles have a separate ammo/caliber. Just like the Mi17 and FN FAL in the mod. And i think there should be more "common/shared" calibers as well, maybe 2-3 new types.

 

Depending on how many weapons are to be added ofc. The fact that guns are modular makes it so there's "fewer" than in the mod but that's totally fine/understandable (like the 5 different M4/M16's with different attachments/scopes/silencer was different "guns".)

[stielhandgranate 480]

considering that in the game I usually aim for another player, some lackluster zed or one of those indestructible rabbits I would have to argue about the game going for "realism" since I have never in real life had to shoot at zeds nor have I ever met an indestructible rabbit (we wont talk about shooting other players...) 

 

now that we have that all nice and clear - as an avid player I don't give 2 shits about any supposed "realism" I will however, be furious if I have to sort through 50 different calibers of ammo in the game just because "realism" - you can count me out of your "we" cause all I care about is a game that's fun I don't play em cause they are "real"

 

Well I'm sorry you disagree, but Dean Hall stated that DayZ was to be a game based in realism, so if that means you have to shift though a few more loot piles before you can run to the coast and kill fresh spawns wearing tee shirts and jeans than so be it.

[The Aquatic Land Walrus 565]

I have yet to see their whole argument as WHY it is a bad thing to have realistic calibers.

And yes, I strongly dislike this "streamlining" of calibers as it feels more fitting to arcade game, not DayZ Standalone, which attracted players based on qualities of DayZ mod.

Here's a good scenario.

"Oh boy! I finally found .22 ammo for my Sporter! Can't wait to use this!

Wait a second...

Shit. This ammo is 2 nanometers too big to fit into the sporter. Oh well. Gotta hope I'm luckier."

A larger amount of ammo types incorporates more luck-based looting into the game. And, last I checked, the DayZ community hates luck. I know for a fact that I do. Especially when my virtual life is on it.

Edited May 30, 2014 by The Aquatic Land Walrus

[Elle 562]

Most of the "Stereotypical" DayZ players only want the game to be near impossible. I agree with your viewpoint. Games were made to entertain, not to challenge last I checked. At least, that was the philosophy when gaming became mainstream.

I know right?? and I am old enough to have contributed many many many quarters to assist in the effort to make gaming mainstream.... how real was pong? man that shit was crazy real.

[Katana67 2907]

Well I'm sorry you disagree, but Dean Hall stated that DayZ was to be a game based in realism, so if that means you have to shift though a few more loot piles before you can run to the coast and kill fresh spawns wearing tee shirts and jeans than so be it.

 

Based in realism doesn't mean 100% adherent to it. Much the same way a movie "Based on true events" isn't likely to be 100% accurate.

 

Likewise, Dean has also used the dev-speak language of "authenticity" (meaning realistic mechanics inasmuch as they benefit gameplay, if they do not benefit gameplay by being wholly realistic, then they will be tweaked/looked at/discarded).

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[scriptfactory 620]

Most of the "Stereotypical" DayZ players only want the game to be near impossible. I agree with your viewpoint. Games were made to entertain, not to challenge last I checked. At least, that was the philosophy when gaming became mainstream.

 

To many people challenge is fun. Especially with the current deluge of casual games. I understand how people want DayZ to be hard but there definitely has to be a balance so beginners will be able to get into the game. All of these people saying food needs to be impossible to find and weapons need to be rare as fuck don't realize how jaded and bored they already are with the game.

Balance is not a dirty word. The key is to add game mechanics that add complexity to the game and require a learning curve but aren't necessary for basic enjoyment of the game. I think Rocket is on the right track with advanced vehicles. But more mechanics like that need to be added. Many more.

Edited May 30, 2014 by scriptfactory

[Elle 562]

Well I'm sorry you disagree, but Dean Hall stated that DayZ was to be a game based in realism, so if that means you have to shift though a few more loot piles before you can run to the coast and kill fresh spawns wearing tee shirts and jeans than so be it.

interesting considering that I play solo very well inland (except when the freakin environment kills me, which has been a lot lately). my player interaction consists of me watching you through my scope and deciding not to pull the trigger. your welcome.

 

why do you realism asshats want to turn the game into a job that dosen't pay?

 

oh and could ya post a link to dean's quote? that would be nice.

[stielhandgranate 480]

Most of the "Stereotypical" DayZ players only want the game to be near impossible. I agree with your viewpoint. Games were made to entertain, not to challenge last I checked. At least, that was the philosophy when gaming became mainstream.

 

Was the DayZ mod "near impossible" with multiple weapons and ammo? Not really. Also games are meant to challenge you. Being challenged is a form of entertainment.

 

 

Listen, I agree, I want the Mosin firing 7.62x54R and I want the AK-74 (whenever they get around to adding it) to fire 5.45x39. But I make the argument that it is detrimental to gameplay and loot balance. Because just sitting there saying it's "unrealistic" isn't a solution. And, I'm not going to sit here and indict the developers as if they're trying to screw the game up, when there are reasons for why they're doing what they're doing. And there are more criteria to judge the game upon, vice ONLY the degree to which the weapons are rendered realistically.

 

If the dev chose his words better an said something along the lines of "At this stage of development we may add certain guns using already in place ammunition at the alpha state" I could agree, but his words could have been chosen better. Chris makes it sound that the end result will have very low ammo spawns and the devs are limiting ammo types for this reason, but adding more ammo types helps this as it will lower the chances of finding ammo you need (as the devs want).

[darksteeljorge 96]

Idk Im too much into guns that i dont feel right with the devs doing this but if its the only way, go ahead as long as we get a G3

[Katana67 2907]

If the dev chose his words better an said something along the lines of "At this stage of development we may add certain guns using already in place ammunition at the alpha state" I could agree, but his words could have been chosen better. Chris makes it sound that the end result will have very low ammo spawns and the devs are limiting ammo types for this reason, but adding more ammo types helps this as it will lower the chances of finding ammo you need (as the devs want).

 

It's worth mentioning that Chris has stated what you describe in other quotes, that certain ammunition isn't prudent to add at this time.

 

He says nothing about ammo spawns, but that's the result of ubiquitous ammunition. Meaning, everything from a double rifle, to a break-action pistol, to a bolt-action rifle, to a DMR/BR, to a GPMG, to a high-end sniper rifle may be using the same ammunition. Which is bad for loot balance, in my opinion. Never mind weapon commonality.

 

But that's not the argument you've been making in the rest of your posts, including the OP, so perhaps you should choose your words better as well. Because you've been playing the "realism" card until now.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

Here's a good scenario.

"Oh boy! I finally found .22 ammo for my Sporter! Can't wait to use this!

Wait a second...

Shit. This ammo is 2 nanometers too big to fit into the sporter. Oh well. Gotta hope I'm luckier."

A larger amount of ammo types incorporates more luck-based looting into the game. And, last I checked, the DayZ community hates luck. I know for a fact that I do. Especially when my virtual life is on it.

 

Thats not a "good scenario". You are implying that there is a round similar to .22 that is "2 nanometers too big". There is no such round. You are also implying I want several thousand ammo types that are not usable. This is not the argument.

[Elle 562]

To many people challenge is fun. Especially with the current deluge of casual games. I understand how people want DayZ to be hard but there definitely has to be a balance so beginners will be able to get into the game. All of these people saying food needs to be impossible to find and weapons need to be rare as fuck don't realize how jaded and bored they already are with the game.

Balance is not a dirty word. The key is to add game mechanics that add complexity to the game and require a learning curve but aren't necessary for basic enjoyment of the game. I think Rocket is on the right track with advanced vehicles. But more mechanics like that need to be added. Many more.

very well said - I have spent a lifetime with challenges, they make me tired (yes I am old) so all I want out of my game is some fun and currently that's exactly what I get with dayz and based on the recent roadmap it looks like that's what I will have from dayz in the future as long as no one pays any attention to threads like this.

[hellcat420 212]

i care about guns using the correct caliber. it would be really stupid to have universal ammunition for groups of firearms that are different calibers.

[gannon46 788]

the horror the horror that's all I can say about the direction I see the weapons and ammo goin in this game. its already to damn easy I actally started playin the mod because I read seen footage of the difficulty but now I read that difficulty is not fun well it is to some of us. to bad this game didn't come in a hard copy I'd have to do some clay shootin with the disc. enjoy the can I play with daddy difficulty wimps. 

[stielhandgranate 480]

It's worth mentioning that Chris has stated what you describe in other quotes, that certain ammunition isn't prudent to add at this time.

 

Can you send me a link to these other posts? Not that I don't believe you, but I can't find anything that elaborates what I quoted.

[Katana67 2907]

Can you send me a link to these other posts? Not that I don't believe you, but I can't find anything that elaborates what I quoted.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/195705-no-specialized-cartridges-torchia-tweet/

 

I made a lengthy thread about this subject already.

 

The quote that I used (in the OP) states that it's "inefficient to add it [9x39 and the VSS] in with the current loot sys."

 

The issue for me, isn't necessarily with the right weapons using the right calibers (i.e. realism). It's with weapons using more SPECIFIC calibers, as to differentiate them, and to allow the developers to actually balance the ammunition rarity. Vice being forced to make 7.62x51 common, because it's used in their low-tier weapons, even though it's also used in so-called "high-end" weaponry.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/195705-no-specialized-cartridges-torchia-tweet/

 

I made a lengthy thread about this subject already.

 

The quote that I used (in the OP) states that it's "inefficient to add it [9x39 and the VSS] in with the current loot sys."

 

It seems pretty unclear if whether or not this is the intended goal of ammunition. Nonetheless, now in the alpha state is the time to whine or protest distastes with the games development. Also that is pretty disappointing about the VSS, as it also means no Groza or VAL.