Arma3 Third person fix mod...thoughts?

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Now I see some still demand more, so...

- Nope, the 3rd person view is not unfair. Everyone can use it. wrong 3rd person is inherently imbalanced. just for the sake of an example: everyone can exploit the wall-glitch. so is it an exploit? yes of course! but everyone could use it, doesn't that make it fair for everyone? well you tell me!

- Nope, 3rd person is not less immersive. The clumsy and limited 1st person view breaks the immerson more effectively. Care to elaborate?

- Nope, you can't prove that 1st person is the only legit way to play the game. It's just your opinion, because you personally may favour one over the other. of course. however i've yet to see one person to say: "i played 1st person but when i tried 3rd person once i was stunned. the game is so much more immersive!" but is the opposite given then? again you tell me!

- Nope, breaking the visual consistency does not improve the game. it works on the inherently given imbalance of 3rd person experience.

- Yes, the game intends to be more than a death match. Seeing your character doing survival stuff actually helps to create a survival feeling. with proper animations and visual indications in a final stable version of the game you would be totally immersed into survival in 1st person.

- Yes, peeking around a corner without being seen can be a tactic to get into advantage over someone or to avoid certain situations. It's a real life tactics, not unrealistic. a tactic to give you an unrealistic advantage nevertheless. real would be: if you can see someone they are also able to see you. using a peephole however, that would be a tactic...

in the end as you've pointed out with several other points it doesn't matter much. everyone has servers of their preference. and dividing it into those two hives has at least one advantage for 1st person servers. scripts and hacks seem to be used almost exclusively on them :/.

Edited March 30, 2014 by joe_mcentire

[Martmital 436]

Yep the game is to far gone to the easy mode kids. Kinda sad as the entire point of this game was to be a game like the ones us hardcore gamers grew up on where the enjoyment comes from the fact that it kicks you in the face and makes it as hard as possible and not another mainstream shitshow I can beat with my eyes closed. I guess Rocket gave up on that.

 

Ah, you are one of them guys...

 

 

it all starts to make sense now.

 

Surely playing only in 1PP in a 3PP server, with all the cheating and the glitches and the expoliting, is the measure of a real hardcore player.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Martmital

[gannon46 788]

if I remember theres a type of server you can join with out 3rd person what was it called......oh yeah hardcore go play it quit messin with our 3pp so you can see around walls all players can do it big deal. you first person cats have your own branch yet you still whine and cry about regular quit tryin to eat the cake and have it too.not everyone wants to lose our 3pp view. like I said in a previous post on this topic if they could make that lag free meaning as soon as I have line of sight they show up but I'm sure dsync or lag would cause some bastard to stay invisible hence ruining regular servers....rant complete

[gannon46 788]

Ah, you are one of them guys...

 

 

it all starts to make sense now.

 

Surely playing only in 1PP in a 3PP server, with all the cheating and the glitches and the expoliting, is the measure of a real hardcore player.

I know these cats have hardcore servers for them to go play on but they bitch about 3pp/regular servers. I really don't give a shit about people looking around walls and shit. there are bigger issues with the game that needed fixed first. and I;m sick of the elite crap you didn't do it in first person mode so u suck blah blah blah.

[gannon46 788]

Exactly. Two seperated hives => two gameplay stiles available to chose from => both won't affect each other => folks can play what they enjoy most (or for the extremists here: Yes, you can chose the playstile which definetely is the one and only justified way to play a game) as they wish.

Problem solved, everyone is happy - well except the tiny but vocal "there-only-can-be-one-thing,-because-choice-is-the-mother-of-evil-minority".

To them I say: You demand challenge? You are the hardcore of the hardcorest? - Then face the most terrifing thing on earth: c.h.o.i.c.e.*

 

 

* successfully confuses 1st person only purists since the 3rd person view has been invented

 

 

Now I see some still demand more, so...

- Nope, the 3rd person view is not unfair. Everyone can use it.

- Nope, 3rd person is not an exploit. It's game design intentionally built in to be used by everyone who wishes so.

- Nope, 3rd person is not broken. It's a very well working game feature.

- Nope, 3rd person is not less immersive. The clumsy and limited 1st person view breaks the immerson more effectively.

- Nope, you can't prove that 1st person is the only legit way to play the game. It's just your opinion, because you personally may favour one over the other.

- Nope, the restricted and imperfect 1st person view alone is not more realistic.

- Nope, breaking the visual consistency does not improve the game.

- Yes, the game intends to be more than a death match. Seeing your character doing survival stuff actually helps to create a survival feeling.

- Yes, peeking around a corner without being seen can be a tactic to get into advantage over someone or to avoid certain situations. It's a real life tactics, not unrealistic.

- Yes, there already is a very well working solution for those who feel threatened by a game feature like the 3rd person view: 1st person only server.

- Yes, you still can have "only one". Just ignore the other choice completely and play what you prefer most. No one forces you to play both ways.

- Yes, the playerbase already is split. In tiny server nibbles of around about 40 player currently. There won't ever be a united playerbase where everone plays on one server anyway.

- Yes, I absolutely mean what I wrote. I read the points, watched the explanations, played the game both ways and I'm absolutely not convinced that the 3rd person view "needs to be fixed".

- Yes, I know that whatever you say or do, you can't please everyone anyways. Some are not willing to accept certain things for the sake of winning the discussion.

- Yes, giving chocolate lovers chocolate and strawberry lovers strawberry is a valid, working and confirmed successfull practice to solve such differences of opinion. :thumbsup:

 

 

Protip for those who like chocolate and strawberry:

Play on 3rd person enabled server and use numpad-enter frequently.

 

Edit

Added some points.

you said it better than I ever could have sir kudos and beans to you may you survive a few more days in chenarus as well.

[Martmital 436]

if I remember theres a type of server you can join with out 3rd person what was it called......oh yeah hardcore go play it quit messin with our 3pp so you can see around walls all players can do it big deal. you first person cats have your own branch yet you still whine and cry about regular quit tryin to eat the cake and have it too.not everyone wants to lose our 3pp view. like I said in a previous post on this topic if they could make that lag free meaning as soon as I have line of sight they show up but I'm sure dsync or lag would cause some bastard to stay invisible hence ruining regular servers....rant complete

 

They are just lonely people, they are hoping that if they whine loud enough and long enough more people will play with them.

[Weedz 1105]

if I remember theres a type of server you can join with out 3rd person what was it called......oh yeah hardcore go play it quit messin with our 3pp so you can see around walls all players can do it big deal. you first person cats have your own branch yet you still whine and cry about regular quit tryin to eat the cake and have it too.not everyone wants to lose our 3pp view. like I said in a previous post on this topic if they could make that lag free meaning as soon as I have line of sight they show up but I'm sure dsync or lag would cause some bastard to stay invisible hence ruining regular servers....rant complete

So you're admitting you want it but have no faith in the dev team .... gotcha. Why are you here playing this game again?

 

They probably shouldn't add cars or touch any of the AI or add any other features for that matter just to make sure the game never gets more laggy or has desync ever again. That would probably be the best way to do an alpha development.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Weedz

[OrLoK 16185]

Drop the insults guys

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Drop the insults guys

spot on. must be able to settle this without getting defensive and over-polemic all the time...

[dallas 5195]

sorry. but that is just not easy for me to grasp. breaking immersion by allowing a massive imbalance due to being able to see around/over walls/corners and saying that is perfectly ok and at the same time stating that such a "fix" would be immersion-killing is just illogical (at least) to me.

 

how could you possibly explain that? everyone arguing the same way, i really would like to understand why the first issue is perfectly ok but the second one is unacceptable and immersion-breaking from your point of view?

People playing on regular servers accepts the greater field of view and know it can work both for and against them. However having zombies and players pop in and out of existence from out of the blue air is going to be a major annoyance. I personally think it looks stupid in the mod video and I'll rather accept being spotted by a dumbass hiding on a roof, than having zombies disappear in the thin air, whenever I run past a tree, sign or picket fence.

[cels 43]

spot on. must be able to settle this without getting defensive and over-polemic all the time...

 

 

If you look at comments the dev team made when the first implementation of "hardcore" servers.. They want more to hardcore than just first person view, they want other aspects of the game to be very difficult for a hardcore setting.. Its a "work in progress" ...So what are people expecting? 4 separate official hives? 

 

A 1st person only normal hive and a 1st person only hardcore hive? 

Also as well the same for 1st/3rd person hives.. A normal and a hardcore version?

 

Granted it might be doable but your most likely scenario would probably end up being the 3rd person fixed with something like this that removes your advantage which removes the need for 1st person only.. 

 

Maybe what you will end up seeing (considering they want more aspects to be a part of "hardcore" than just view preference) is 1st/3rd normal with the game how it is and this kinda fix not in.. Also as well a 1st/3rd hardcore with this fix in place, also as well with other hardcore aspects added into it.. One that they already said sounds interesting is headshots only killing infested...

 

Being it still is alpha.. They could likely just go with 4 hives for the time being to see what version of the game people play the most(1st normal, 1st hardcore, 1st/3rd normal, 1st/3rd hardcore).. It is afterall the testing and development time for the game. 

Edited March 30, 2014 by cels

[Judopunch 523]

sorry. but that is just not easy for me to grasp. breaking immersion by allowing a massive imbalance due to being able to see around/over walls/corners and saying that is perfectly ok and at the same time stating that such a "fix" would be immersion-killing is just illogical (at least) to me.

 

how could you possibly explain that? everyone arguing the same way, i really would like to understand why the first issue is perfectly ok but the second one is unacceptable and immersion-breaking from your point of view?

Because people existing and not existing comes with its own problems. Why not simply limit camera movement so that it becomes difficult to see around/over objects. This seems like a much better solution than removing models where people pop into existence and what not.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Judopunch

[Etherious 907]

Because people existing and not existing comes with its own problems. Why not simply limit camera movement so that it becomes difficult to see around/over objects. This seems like a much better solution than removing models where people pop into existence and what not.

+Beans

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Because people existing and not existing comes with its own problems. Why not simply limit camera movement so that it becomes difficult to see around/over objects. This seems like a much better solution than removing models where people pop into existence and what not.

however the concept proposed in the video is the most efficient based on eradicating the overall imbalance. i can't see how limiting the camera would inhibit peaking around a corner, yes maybe over a wall or fence, but if you would stand close enough to a corner you would - no matter how far the camera zooms in - see around it.

 

if anyone of you still has e.g. Skyrim installed. try it! zoom in on 3rd person as much as you can and move the camera angle. try to exploit it to see around a corner. and maybe also please provide comparison pics! unfortunately i have no skyrim.

Edited March 30, 2014 by joe_mcentire

[Simple79 1]

 

Skip to 3.30

 

be aware its a loooooooong vid.

 

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?169730-The-Fourth-Wall

 

Rdgs

 

LoK

There's no such thing as 3rd person abusers in a 3rd person game. This argument is so f'in old. There are hardcore servers for a reason. Why is this hard for people to comprehend and implement into thier tiny brains?

[Etherious 907]

There's no such thing as 3rd person abusers in a 3rd person game. This argument is so f'in old. There are hardcore servers for a reason. Why is this hard for people to comprehend and implement into thier tiny brains?

I think what they're trying to convey is that 3rd person gives too much camera view to the player. Try not to think too hard :P

Edited March 30, 2014 by DJ SGTHornet

[Judopunch 523]

however the concept proposed in the video is the most efficient based on eradicating the overall imbalance. i can't see how limiting the camera would inhibit peaking around a corner, yes maybe over a wall or fence, but if you would stand close enough to a corner you would - no matter how far the camera zooms in - see around it.

 

if anyone of you still has e.g. Skyrim installed. try it! zoom in on 3rd person as much as you can and move the camera angle. try to exploit it to see around a corner. and maybe also please provide comparison pics! unfortunately i have no skyrim.

You have a fundamental advantage in third person regardless. If people dont like that they should play 1pp only.

 

Collision boxes can be created that would prevent the looking around a corner unless the player exposes them-self.

 

They use a system like the one proposed in world of tanks. Everyone hates it.

[gibonez 3633]

People playing on regular servers accepts the greater field of view and know it can work both for and against them. However having zombies and players pop in and out of existence from out of the blue air is going to be a major annoyance. I personally think it looks stupid in the mod video and I'll rather accept being spotted by a dumbass hiding on a roof, than having zombies disappear in the thin air, whenever I run past a tree, sign or picket fence.

 

People playing on regular servers accepts the greater field of view and know it can work both for and against them. However having zombies and players pop in and out of existence from out of the blue air is going to be a major annoyance. I personally think it looks stupid in the mod video and I'll rather accept being spotted by a dumbass hiding on a roof, than having zombies disappear in the thin air, whenever I run past a tree, sign or picket fence.

 

That is what happens when your character cannot physically see the zombie or person therefore it is completely fine.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

They use a system like the one proposed in world of tanks. Everyone hates it.

interesting. would you kindly provide some sort of footage? would be really interesting to see.

edit: they use the system with the collision boxes or the system as proposed in the vid?

 

tbh. i couldn't care less as long as i am not forced to play 3rd person only. i was just following the dicussion and it baffles me that (obviously not everyone) many just seem to like 3rd person because of the very advantage/disadvantage you have in this game. that's why i like to talk about it and discuss it.

 

some get clearly offended and quite defensive and start to insult ppl with their 3rd post it also seems - at least to me - that some have quite the double standards in terms of what is immersion breaking and what not.

 

as Dean pointed out: 3rd person will forever remain untouched, which imo is a pity, but that's what BI thought they have to do for sales and therefore it was a necessary concession to make.

Edited March 30, 2014 by joe_mcentire

[Judopunch 523]

That is what happens when your character cannot physically see the zombie or person therefore it is completely fine.

But your camera can, and thats where it gets 'weird' feeling. 

 

If your character physically seeing something is important to you, do what I do. Play 1pp. Why is this not acceptable?

[Etherious 907]

But your camera can, and thats where it gets 'weird' feeling. 

 

If your character physically seeing something is important to you, do what I do. Play 1pp. Why is this not acceptable?

Cuz it's unfair brah, liek I want 2 cheatsy doddles! (Sarcasm, btw) ;D

[Weedz 1105]

Because people existing and not existing comes with its own problems. Why not simply limit camera movement so that it becomes difficult to see around/over objects. This seems like a much better solution than removing models where people pop into existence and what not.

Except limiting the camera to actually being over the shoulder and actually having good 3pp like most 3pp games people will cry exactly the same as they are about this mod. They don't want it fixed they want to keep abusing it.

[Judopunch 523]

interesting. would you kindly provide some sort of footage? would be really interesting to see.

 

tbh. i couldn't care less as long as i am not forced to play 3rd person only. i was just following the dicussion and it baffles me that (obviously not everyone) many just seem to like 3rd person because of the very advantage/disadvantage you have in this game. that's why i like to talk about it and discuss it.

 

some get clearly offended and quite defensive and start to insult ppl with their 3rd post it also seems - at least to me - that some have quite the double standards in terms of what is immersion breaking and what not.

Here is an especially good example. The lag between 'you can see him now' allowed both of the enemy to gain position and fire the first salvo on the guy recording.

 

Here is another

 

Lag can make people come all the way around a wall shoot and move into cover again before you have time to react and return fire. The camo mechanics are also a shit show because sometimes someone will fire from 800 yards away behind a huge bush and get reviled, while a tank hiding behind a tiny bush at 200m will be shooting you all day but not be spotted. They only way the help the 'pops into existence' problem, and i say help because as you can see in the first video its a huge problem, is if you are within about 20m of each-other you are drawn regardless. However this is exactly the problem that will happen in dayZ.

 

Your going to get a guy with 20 ping, jump out around the corner and shoot you and your friend, you will be dead before he becomes visible.  

 

Personally I dislike the fact that this game even has an option for 3pp because of how punishing death is. However there is no 'fix' that will remove the numerous advantages that 3pp has over 1pp in the areas of situation awareness and field of vision.  Here is probably the best video that I can find on this subject. It shows how awesome 1pp is.

 

Discussion topic: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/165792-dyslecxi-shows-just-how-amazing-1pp-only-is-in-new-video/?hl=stalking

 

Video: 

 

 

Even with the suggested system in place this video would not have been possible if he had been in a 3pp server.

[Judopunch 523]

Except limiting the camera to actually being over the shoulder and actually having good 3pp like most 3pp games people will cry exactly the same as they are about this mod. They don't want it fixed they want to keep abusing it.

Thats the thing. There will always be an 'unfair advantage' in 3pp. Therefore we should advocate only playing 1pp and having stronger support for 1pp systems.

 

I have yet to here any compelling reasons to have 3pp in this game. If you want to know what you look like in 1pp have them create a mirror object for you to collect (could also have fun using this like a para-scope to check corners dont shoot mah hands!).

[fitzee 248]

Hi.

 

While I like this mod, I haven't played on any 3pp servers since they made the hardcore hive. Therefor I wouldn't want to force it on the periscope crowd.

 

I do find it amusing how some players have said they don't abuse the periscope, yet they still don't like this near-perfect solution of bringing the community together.

 

Regards.