Arma3 Third person fix mod...thoughts?

[Elle 562]

Giving the "majority" of the playerbase exactly what they want is exactly what killed the vanilla DayZ mod.

the huge difference is the mod was free to own and standalone is not. in order for a commercial enterprise to be successful one must supply what the majority demands. simple econ 101.

 

private hives will make a big difference in how we all approach the dayz experience I am sure.

 

I completely agree with everything else in yer post there ;) nicely done.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

People who're chiming in on the whole "we can all use 3PP, so it's balanced" tune are silly. Sure, we can all use 3PP, but the guy laying prone in an elevated position has an exponential advantage over the guy on ground level. That's where the whole debate is really quashed. In 1PP, peeking requires a risk. That's realistic. This game strives to be realistic. In 3PP, peeking involves no risk and is akin to playing Tomb Raider. It's dull, makes griefing exponentially easier, and robs the game of a lot of its heart-pounding excitement.

 

Meh.

[blunce 991]

People who're chiming in on the whole "we can all use 3PP, so it's balanced" tune are silly. Sure, we can all use 3PP, but the guy laying prone in an elevated position has an exponential advantage over the guy on ground level. That's where the whole debate is really quashed. In 1PP, peeking requires a risk. That's realistic. This game strives to be realistic. In 3PP, peeking involves no risk and is akin to playing Tomb Raider. It's dull, makes griefing exponentially easier, and robs the game of a lot of its heart-pounding excitement.

 

Meh.

It is balanced, & I feel that your points are very subjective. The player on "ground level" could've just as easily been the "elevated player" had he gone to the elevated position first. When playing in 3PP, every player needs to consider that they could fall into this disadvantage at any moment. It's a matter of who sees who first, just as it is in hardcore. If the higher ground gives you the advantage in 3PP, well then you'd better stick to the high ground. 3PP is what it is. You can't have your cake & eat it too.

Edited March 26, 2014 by blunce

[Weedz 1105]

the huge difference is the mod was free to own and standalone is not. in order for a commercial enterprise to be successful one must supply what the majority demands. simple econ 101.

 

private hives will make a big difference in how we all approach the dayz experience I am sure.

 

I completely agree with everything else in yer post there ;) nicely done.

It was more expensive to start playing the mod than it is the SA unless you already owned Arma 2 which 99.5% of people did not as dayZ increased the games sales something like 5000%.

 

In the first month and a 1/2 of the mod Arma 2 sales were increased 500% (still to only 300,000 total players who owned Arma 2). This is when all the articles started coming out which made it popular so it sat on the Steam #1 seller for like 9 straight weeks and the number eventually got all the way up to almost (or even higher than I've seen both said) 2 million players. This was coming from a game that only had 60,000 before DayZ was invented.

 

You also had to buy Arma 2 AND the expansion both of which cost how much the SA does alone. So when I bought Arma 2 for DayZ Mod I actually payed double what I did for the SA.

 

 

 

And yeah I always love when people say zombies aren't realistic when they are literally based on real things that happened to people (where the word comes from) / are happening in the animal world still (or shit that's even spookier) Like a worm parasite that takes over a bugs brain and makes it climb as high and be exposed as they can and then turn into a "berry" so a bird eats it and gets infected. Make a game about that where you play as a bug trying to survive as all your friends are forced to commit suicide and I'll shit my pants ... zombies not so much.

 

This parasite literally CONTROLS the bug's brain unlike a zombie infection which just kills every part of the brain other than "BRAIIIIINS!"

Edited March 26, 2014 by Weedz

[pacific_coast 632]

3pp always boils down to this:

 

"I am afraid not to have as much observation, situational awareness and control over my surroundings as possible, so I will exploit the camera to feel safer. This is justified because everyone else is doing it, or has the chance to do it."

 

this stabs the dayz right in the meta hole.

please, devs. have balls. remove 3pp completely.

we will only lose the cowards.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

It is balanced, & I feel that your points are very subjective. The player on "ground level" could've just as easily been the "elevated player" had he gone to the elevated position first. When playing in 3PP, every player needs to consider that they could fall into this disadvantage at any moment. It's a matter of who sees who first, just as it is in hardcore. If the higher ground gives you the advantage in 3PP, well then you'd better stick to the high ground. 3PP is what it is. You can't have your cake & eat it too.

 

That does not equal balance, dude. Just because one guy got up there first shouldn't give him a metric fuckton of advantage over the guy who comes along second. Some advantage, yes. Absolute clarity, no. In 1PP, you'd have to peek, so even the guy with the elevated position (think ATCs, tops of firestations) would have to risk his safety for a momentary glimpse of his surroundings. As it stands now, the guy in 3PP can just lay prone for a half hour until someone blunders along without risking exposure. He can then time his attack perfectly until he decides to strike with no risk whatsoever.

 

That is not balanced. The following two pictures portray a fairly accurate description of what I'm getting at (both were taken without moving the character at all. I simply changed my view from 1PP to 3PP):

 

3PP

 

1PP

Edited March 26, 2014 by Grimey Rick

[Weedz 1105]

That does not equal balance, dude. Just because one guy got up there first shouldn't give him a metric fuckton of advantage over the guy who comes along second. 

It's actually more than a metric fuckton it is about as close to an unbeatable 100% advantage as you can realistically get in the world.

 

Universal Fuckton™ if you will ...

 

Please not I have TM'ed Universal Fuckton because it is awesome and anyone who wishes to use it owes me a royalty.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Weedz

[makomachine 263]

I like the thought process and would be fine with it in compromise. I do think it opens up scenarios where you "think" you are clear of cover and not seeing anyone, when you actually aren't. That could be frustrating too. Regardless, it's all a compromise.

My wife has wicked motion sickness and can't play any FPS games as it makes her sick in short order. 3PP allows her to play more as that's minimized to some extent. I find the forward FOV more realistic in 3PP from a peripheral vision standpoint as well, as FPS isn't able to account for eye movement and our natural ability to see things nearly beside us. That said, I play FP as well, as I do like the more real world cover it provides and to me it's the better compromise. I do get the complaints of others around 3PP and the exploits this provides however. Interesting 'challenge' for development!

[blunce 991]

That does not equal balance, dude. Just because one guy got up there first shouldn't give him a metric fuckton of advantage over the guy who comes along second. Some advantage, yes. Absolute clarity, no. In 1PP, you'd have to peek, so even the guy with the elevated position (think ATCs, tops of firestations) would have to risk his safety for a momentary glimpse of his surroundings. As it stands now, the guy in 3PP can just lay prone for a half hour until someone blunders along without risking exposure. He can then time his attack perfectly until he decides to strike with no risk whatsoever.

 

That is not balanced. The following two pictures portray a fairly accurate description of what I'm getting at (both were taken without moving the character at all. I simply changed my view from 1PP to 3PP):

Yes, I understand very clearly the point you are trying to make. But I think you fail to see mine. Let's say 2 fresh spawns spawn at the exact same time in the same location. They part ways. They eventually reencounter; one has the high ground, one has the low ground. The guy in the high ground has the advantage because he got there first, just as the guy on ground could've easily done (survival of the fittest). Yes I understand it's unrealistic to be able to see "over" or "around" cover without exposing yourself. But every single person playing regular mode is provided with these same tools. If one person gets a fat advantage simply because he's in an elevated postion then so be it. Anybody can just as easily do that same exact method as they please. If someone wants the advantage of exploiting the camera angle, they should damn very well know that everyone else can use this same tactic against them. This is my point when I say that it is balanced. It's subjective. The only way to eliminate this issue, would be to play hardcore, or remove 3PP altogether.

 

EDIT: Ultimately, what I've derived from this, is that 3PP is a flawed system. & I think that implementing a system that we saw in OP's video would be even more flawed than that. Having players appearing & disappearing because your line of sight was broken is just prone to bugs, exploits, unrealism, lack of immersion & just one huge headache. I wouldn't want a player to disappear for a second just because a leaf drifted through my line of sight. It's like, where would the line be drawn?

Edited March 26, 2014 by blunce

[real meatshield 424]

I'm not understanding why this is even an issue.

 

1PP players stick to 1PP servers, 3PP players stick to 3PP servers. Either you use it or you don't. This idea is as bad as bringing a humanity system- it unfairly penalizes all players who play 3PP just because 1PP players dont like it- while obviously, the 3PP players have no issue with it.

[Weedz 1105]

I like the thought process and would be fine with it in compromise. I do think it opens up scenarios where you "think" you are clear of cover and not seeing anyone, when you actually aren't. That could be frustrating too. Regardless, it's all a compromise.

My wife has wicked motion sickness and can't play any FPS games as it makes her sick in short order. 3PP allows her to play more as that's minimized to some extent. I find the forward FOV more realistic in 3PP from a peripheral vision standpoint as well, as FPS isn't able to account for eye movement and our natural ability to see things nearly beside us. That said, I play FP as well, as I do like the more real world cover it provides and to me it's the better compromise. I do get the complaints of others around 3PP and the exploits this provides however. Interesting 'challenge' for development!

That's the point it removes the knowing you are 100% safe because you are exploiting 3pp from the game. And I too get motion sickness (and migraines!) but only when games have horrible head bob like this game has and I play for a while.

 

FoV is not more realistic, on the point of peripheral FoV you're a little right, but the fact that you can see 15 feet behind your body negates anything else that can be said about it being more "realistic". But also I have a 32" monitor so almost my entire real life FoV is taken up anyway and it feels like I'm looking through my eyes when I'm playing and I actually have to look around and turn my head a little to see corners of my screen ... this would be better if you could change your FoV in the game. Also thanks for not ignorantly saying moving a camera backwards 15 feet but keeping the same angle is increasing the FoV like other people claim :beans:  for that alone! You worded it perfectly with peripheral FoV more realistic. But this is also like saying every FPS game ever made isn't good though. Also unlike pretty much every game ever made you can actually physically TURN YOUR HEAD! in this game to look around.

 

That's the beauty of this thread they don't need development just figuring out how to implement something that is already made for them.

 

 

I was going to put something else but then I went and grabbed food and forgot  :blush: i think it had something to do with eyeballs?

 

The only way to eliminate this issue, would be to play hardcore, or remove 3PP altogether.

You know what thread you're in right?

Edited March 26, 2014 by Weedz

[Valadain 270]

I think you need to think that through a little more mate.  ;)

 

If you are standing at a wall, you can clearly see over it. However the poor bugger running towards it can not see you at all. You can clearly see what end he runs too and and flank from the opposite end etc. A clear advantage.

 

I run in first person mode no matter what server I am in but I have to account for the wall advantage perspective as part of my game play. I wish there was only first person servers and really can't understand why someone would want to ruin the immersion of the game. Some people must just rely on it to get by I suppose.

 

Just as you said, you know that people can do it, so you adjust accordingly. That you choose to restrict yourself on your perspective is your choice. If you are good, you should fairly well be able to compensate, but may get unlucky from time to time. You also have the choice to play on servers specifically set to only support first person.

 

As for the "I wish there was only first person servers", I can't really understand that wish. Why would you take issue with people doing something on an entirely different server off somewhere that doesn't impact your server? (heck, if you play hardcore, it is a different hive entirely).

Edited March 26, 2014 by Valadain

[mgc 92]

interesting considering that the majority of the community plays 3pp. why do you think that is? another question is why do you want to piss off the majority of the community?? and yet another question is why in the hell do you think you know more than I do about how I want to play MY games??? it has been stated repeatedly that there are HC servers for 1pp only gameplay, I know because I play on em. I also play on the 3pp servers after the HC gives me a raging headache from trying to navigate the high grass. seriously if you have a problem with 3pp play, stay the hell off the 3pp servers but for the love of god stop trying to force your playstyle on everyone else, its just a bit Nazi-ish. as for immersion... I didn't buy the game because "omg its so real..." its a fictional apocalypse, key point being fictional - there is no true immersion in fiction and every zed I see reminds me of that - kinda blows the immersion.

""interesting considering that the majority of the community plays 3pp. why do you think that is?""

Most likely because they're young or lazy enough to take the easy way. Besides, haven't you read Plato on democracy?

 

""another question is why do you want to piss off the majority of the community?""

I'm trying to uphold the games standard. If part of the "community" gets in the way, tough luck.

 

""why in the hell do you think you know more than I do about how I want to play MY games?""

How you want to play games is completely up to you. What that game looks like is just as well my concern if I also play it.

 

""as for immersion... I didn't buy the game because "omg its so real..."""

""stop trying to force your playstyle on everyone else""

So you admit you have no horse in this realism "race". You might as well play any other shooter and be perfectly happy.

No, you and your majority stop trying to force a game that's all about realism to keep unrealistic features. You and yours might corrupt the essence of this game by sheer numbers. Pls come back when it's finished and leave the development phase to those who care.

[Elle 562]

It was more expensive to start playing the mod than it is the SA unless you already owned Arma 2 which 99.5% of people did not as dayZ increased the games sales something like 5000%.

 

In the first month and a 1/2 of the mod Arma 2 sales were increased 500% (still to only 300,000 total players who owned Arma 2). This is when all the articles started coming out which made it popular so it sat on the Steam #1 seller for like 9 straight weeks and the number eventually got all the way up to almost (or even higher than I've seen both said) 2 million players. This was coming from a game that only had 60,000 before DayZ was invented.

 

You also had to buy Arma 2 AND the expansion both of which cost how much the SA does alone. So when I bought Arma 2 for DayZ Mod I actually payed double what I did for the SA.

 

oh I am well aware of the economics of arma2 and how the mod increased its sales but you have to understand that the mod, which was free, served as an advertising agent for arma2 which was not free - I am one of those people that watched all the videos thinkin to myself "well isn't that cool" while shopping for something else that did not require me to buy some game I had no interest in just to play. then the announcement of SA came along and I was all in. I tinkered with the arma demos and whatnot but they just aren't my kinda game. the standalone must serve as its own advertising agent and sell itself to the masses, therefore the masses must be appeased in order to maintain sales and right now the masses like their 3pp. that ability alone was part of the reason I bought it. I have no love for 1pp only games - they give me headaches. I do however like the ability to switch between the two, cause sometimes ya have to see what yer doin and sometimes ya have to see where yer goin.

 

I rather like having the ability of playing this as a PvE game and really like the fact that the environment is getting more difficult as development progresses - I don't play it as a shooter, I never have and I never will so that 4th wall mod would be great for something like private hives but likely hinder those of us who enjoy a casual stroll thru zombie apocalypse. now if were a bit smoother in its operation it wouldn't make any difference to have it running on 3pp so I am no entirely opposed to that but I am very opposed to the overall removal of 3pp.

 

 

And yeah I always love when people say zombies aren't realistic when they are literally based on real things that happened to people (where the word comes from) / are happening in the animal world still (or shit that's even spookier) Like a worm parasite that takes over a bugs brain and makes it climb as high and be exposed as they can and then turn into a "berry" so a bird eats it and gets infected. Make a game about that where you play as a bug trying to survive as all your friends are forced to commit suicide and I'll shit my pants ... zombies not so much.

 

This parasite literally CONTROLS the bug's brain unlike a zombie infection which just kills every part of the brain other than "BRAIIIIINS!"

damn that there is just freaky creepy - I did see a lil indie game where you get to play as a fly but this^ is something else entirely :p

[blunce 991]

 

You know what thread you're in right?

 

Yes, I'm speaking in regards to the points Grimey Rick has made.

[Elle 562]

""interesting considering that the majority of the community plays 3pp. why do you think that is?""

Most likely because they're young or lazy enough to take the easy way. Besides, haven't you read Plato on democracy?

 

""another question is why do you want to piss off the majority of the community?""

I'm trying to uphold the games standard. If part of the "community" gets in the way, tough luck.

 

""why in the hell do you think you know more than I do about how I want to play MY games?""

How you want to play games is completely up to you. What that game looks like is just as well my concern if I also play it.

 

""as for immersion... I didn't buy the game because "omg its so real..."""

""stop trying to force your playstyle on everyone else""

So you admit you have no horse in this realism "race". You might as well play any other shooter and be perfectly happy.

No, you and your majority stop trying to force a game that's all about realism to keep unrealistic features. You and yours might corrupt the essence of this game by sheer numbers. Pls come back when it's finished and leave the development phase to those who care.

hahah the sheer numbers, as you put it, are what pay the salaries of the people who are making the game - duh! - why do you want to hurt pocketbooks of the people who are making such a fine product that has such incredible mass appeal and TWO different play styles already built in. just stay the hell off of 3pp servers if its that important to you and if the 1pp servers die due to lack of participation I would have to say the paying masses, you know, those sheer numbers, will have spoken. don't be daft. stop trying to force your way on everyone else. simple.

[makomachine 263]

That's the point it removes the knowing you are 100% safe because you are exploiting 3pp from the game. And I too get motion sickness but only when games have horrible head bob like this game has.

I'm agreeing - but in the video it was a fine line of peaking around an object from something popping into view, and something not. You think you mare looking around/over and object when in reality you haven't quite yet. It's a better trade off regardless.

FoV is not more realistic, on the point of peripheral FoV you're a little right, but the fact that you can see 15 feet behind your body negates anything else that can be said about it being more "realistic".

Agreed here as well - I'm strictly talking FoV only. I have central vision loss, so I'm hyper sensitive to this issue anyway as I use peripheral vision more than most.

You worded it perfectly with foward FoV more realistic. But this is also like saying every FPS game ever made isn't good though. Also unlike pretty much every game ever made you can actually physically TURN YOUR HEAD! in this game to look around.

I play a lot of FPS and agree - not a unique problem, and doesn't impact the game. In many 3PP games, the 'exploit' is also less of a factor - as maps and the gameplay are artificially limited to minimize this in many cases (aka flat ground, etc.). I do think there is a compromise in the middle with a tweak to the FoV and the already allowing adjustment to head bob for those that get most ion sickness. I'm personally hoping we get VR support mainstream and polished soon to allow for much better real world immersion in games like these.

Edited March 26, 2014 by makomachine

[mgc 92]

hahah the sheer numbers, as you put it, are what pay the salaries of the people who are making the game - duh! - why do you want to hurt pocketbooks of the people who are making such a fine product that has such incredible mass appeal and TWO different play styles already built in. just stay the hell off of 3pp servers if its that important to you and if the 1pp servers die due to lack of participation I would have to say the paying masses, you know, those sheer numbers, will have spoken. don't be daft. stop trying to force your way on everyone else. simple.

You didn't read Plato, did you.

If money is all they care about, you win.

Edited March 26, 2014 by mgc

[crazykilla420 11]

Not to be a douche or anything but this is the dayz standalone section so if you don't mind posting this some where else thanks <3

[makomachine 263]

Not to be a douche or anything but this is the dayz standalone section so if you don't mind posting this some where else thanks <3

I believe this is exactly centered around DayZ SA - we are talking to its application in this game. Watch the video...

[crazykilla420 11]

I believe this is exactly centered around DayZ SA - we are talking to its application in this game. Watch the video...

If its arma3 then wouldnt it be dayz mod? this is standalone

[badluckburt 974]

If its arma3 then wouldnt it be dayz mod? this is standalone

 

Not to be a douche or anything but even while the engines of A3 and DayZ SA are different branches of RV, this can definitely be ported over to DayZ SA which is why Orlok posted it.

Edited March 26, 2014 by BadLuckBurt

[Weedz 1105]

the standalone must serve as its own advertising agent and sell itself to the masses, therefore the masses must be appeased in order to maintain sales and right now the masses like their 3pp. 

 

damn that there is just freaky creepy - I did see a lil indie game where you get to play as a fly but this^ is something else entirely :P

DayZ is already known the world over it doesn't really need to advertise itself. They already have more players (or about tied) than the crazy popular mod every did and I'm sure they weren't expecting every single person and then some to come from the mod. It's also still selling ~10,000 copies a day still on average this has nothing to do with advertising (that they are doing themselves). Having ~2,000,000 copies sold for an Indie game in early early early alpha development isn't good, it isn't amazing, it is mind shatteringly unfathomable. And has pretty much only been done by Minecraft before (which didn't have even a fraction of the people this game does when I started playing it in InDev ~at the point where the SA is now maybe a little earlier).

Edited March 26, 2014 by Weedz

[makomachine 263]

Duplicate post

Edited March 26, 2014 by makomachine

[Window Licker 504]

Not to be a douche or anything but even while the engines of A3 and DayZ SA are different branches of RV, this can definitely be ported over to DayZ SA which is why Orlok posted it.

Ya there has been several thread's debating the 3pp view and this kind of modification, it's a decent idea as it has been a hot point in the past.