First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[DemonGroover 8836]

Turned?

You know  - like a zombie.

[terrvik 2409]

You know  - like a zombie.

 

Ah, a mindless drone following the majority attacking the last few survivors of a dying perspective! :)

 

T'is a joke. Calm.

[SMLE 39]

Why do i get the feeling i could slip into a coma, sleep for 25 years, wake up and we would still be debating this issue?

 

And by then the argument would be some players wanting 3rd person in the Matrix.

Why , because these are forums and as forum posters it is our job no dare I say our divine mission to drive blue names to dispear :P

cheers

[tommes 331]

p.s. being a guy who worked to develop sw for the last ... 25 years approx. and leading today on a VR system project I can tell you that to introduce "limitations" to the 3dp view may end up in something really klunky. I do not question the idea behind that (I also made suggestions about how to do it) but I am not so confident about the result, hence the third option (3dp as today)

That is a good point. If you rework TPV it will become different of course. Probably the TPV lovers won't love it so much anymore. The possible bitching will make this whole discussion look puny.

[dgeesio 1034]

Why do i get the feeling i could slip into a coma, sleep for 25 years, wake up and we would still be debating this issue?

 

And by then the argument would be some players wanting 3rd person in the Matrix.

this is the first person agenda brigade i mean

 

just because people who like third person discuss their views and how they like it the first person brigade just try and mock third person lovers. its a joke.

 

take it out leave it in who gives a fook when all you get is this typical response from people who cant just be honest and say i prefer first person or i prefer 3rd. instead just try to belittle others into thinking there choice is better.

 

there is no better way ! its a choice a option to play limit options you limit gameplay which makes it worse.

[dgeesio 1034]

whats up dont they want to redo the animations for both or is it too much work ?

[SMLE 39]

That is a good point. If you rework TPV it will become different of course. Probably the TPV lovers won't love it so much anymore. The possible bitching will make this whole discussion look puny.

agreed , think of it a tsunami of carebears wielding pink teadybears and rainbows hugging everyone in site coming and posting here in your forums :P

oh the humanity .

cheers

[SMLE 39]

this is the first person agenda brigade i mean

 

just because people who like third person discuss their views and how they like it the first person brigade just try and mock third person lovers. its a joke.

 

take it out leave it in who gives a fook when all you get is this typical response from people who cant just be honest and say i prefer first person or i prefer 3rd. instead just try to belittle others into thinking there choice is better.

 

there is no better way ! its a choice a option to play limit options you limit gameplay which makes it worse.

sometimes blue names try to make jokes to calm things down a bit I don't think they are always trying to belittle people .

cheers

[tommes 331]

In the end we are asking about nerf  the 3rd person so much that it's the same if you're playing in the 1st person?

It would be just better to leave it as it is and spent resources on other things or just remove the 3rd person.

Exactly. Just remove it. Because right now it causes trouble.

[tommes 331]

I use 1st person sometimes and prefer 3rd person while playing. 1st person is good for sniping, scouting and fighting.

Tell me: Why must I be turned?

You don't. Just stop trolling and everything will be fine.

[SMLE 39]

Exactly. Just remove it. Because right now it causes trouble.

It also causes over 80% of sales ill have some of that trouble any day thankyou .

cheers

[terrvik 2409]

It also causes over 80% of sales ill have some of that trouble any day thankyou .

cheers

 

Do you recieve royalties on any of the sales? :)

 

I don't care if it caters to a large audience or not as long as it is the best game it can be. If alienating part of the audience makes for a better quallity experience then go for it.

 

Obviously this is all in my opinion and from my perspective of what makes a good quality game so hold on to those bash replies.

[Shadow Man 142]

Whats bothering me is the number of people who put more effort into flaming "the other side" than actually tring to resolve the discussion.

 

There are issues with both views. Rocket would prefer to keep both, but he has said himself that there are issues with using 3rd person exploits. Whatever the result, whether they manage to modify 3rd or not or whatever, the game as we know it in the the mod is NOT going to be the same as the SA. If people are so precious about 3rd person then they're probably going to be shocked by the way the game plays differently. All the crafting stuff they're are putting in isn't there just for show, you're going to have to use it and actually survive.

 

A lot of people are talking like they expect and want the SA to be like the mod, its not. At least I hope not.

[SMLE 39]

Do you recieve royalties on any of the sales? :)

 

I don't care if it caters to a large audience or not as long as it is the best game it can be. If alienating part of the audience makes for a better quallity experience then go for it.

 

Obviously this is all in my opinion and from my perspective of what makes a good quality game so hold on to those bash replies.

Sorry it was a silly response to a silly statement by tommes , I should not have risen to the bait , My apologies .

cheers

[Jex 1104]

If it had only been 1st person from the beginning, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. So would the game as been as popular had it been this way from the beginning? If your answer is yes, 3rd person can go, right?

[dallas 5195]

 @ 

 

 

I realize my tone may be a little aggressive, but I while I enjoy third person view, I'm not a cheater and exploiter and I'm tired of the accusation, not from you, but third person view now has this connotation. 

 

I know Rocket dismisses the removal of third person views, but it's still the underlying premises in the very original post. Those that have no interest in third person have successfully re-defined third person view as an outright cheat, instead of a popular choice.

 

Forcing people into first person every time they go prone, would be like forcing everyone into iron sights evey time they pull the trigger. Who am I to dictate that all people should be forced to shoot through sights, simply because sights, if used correctly can be more accurate. Iron sights and scopes is not an accuracy cheat, just like the virtual crosshair Shack Tac uses isn't an aimbot cheat. Shack Tac disables third person view, but enables crosshairs, because many of them use TrackerIRs and crosshairs works as an invaluable aid with TIR. This is legit for me, I don't like crosshairs myself, but ArmA isn't a narrow platform, where I get to dictate, how other people run their servers.

 

 

 

 

Remove 3rd person. 1st only. My input.

Poll: 

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/

https://docs.google....j2Sil4/viewform

The first poll: 99 vs 37 prefer first person.

Second poll: 406 vs 30 prefer first person.

 

Dslyseci's video has 3000 likes and 44 dislikes.

 

 

 

The question is not what is an exploit and what is legit gameplay, the question is what is wrong with first person, since so many people, who either prefer first person, pretend to favor first person to appease a popular youtuber or to appear "elite," all these people lend their full support to first person and show their disdain for third person, because it's a cheat, an exploit, a n00b trait, yet all these people, freely congregate on third person servers, because they can't fill up a 30-50 person server.

 

Where are all the first person players at?

 

What's so wrong about first person view, that even vast majority of first person players, would rather submit themselves to so-called cheating, than to play on servers, that completely eliminate this "cheating" by enforcing a higher difficulty level?

 

I believe there is a disconnect between wanting to appear hardcore elite and then the desire to have a decent experience, while putting in the many many hours, required to play the harsh grind, survival is suppose to be in DayZ. ArmA and DayZ offers a beautiful scenery and great looking player models, yet when your play ArmA/DayZ in first person, you're constantly looking at awkward ladder climbing animations, awkward weapons animations, getting crushed, fall off high places or exposing your extremities, because first person does a really poor job of simulating physical awareness.

 

No, the problem is that currently the way 3rd person can be used is detrimental to gameplay, for EVERYONE.  That's not my opinion on play-styles or which cam I prefer using, just a sensible observation which nobody has really countered yet.

 

Dallas, you're an intelligent guy and I know you've played Arma for many years (since OFP?) and also DayZ for a very long time the same as I have.  Please explain to me as best you can how having every rooftop, window (of which there are many more in the SA), wall, large rock or any other type of cover as a potential point for a player to literally sit behind in complete safety while observing his/her surroundings without any risk of either detection or harm is not detrimental to gameplay?

 

It's a genuine question btw because in 54 pages I haven't seen one post that explains why it's good for the game (I don't mean the cam I mean the "exploit").  Even if you don't consider it an exploit then humour me and just consider the actual gameplay itself, nothing else.

 

I explained at length earlier in this thread just one situation (of many) where the way TPC can currently be used gives players in certain situations an unfair advantage and effects the game negatively.  It was largely ignored by the peeps that can't see the issue and the so far the best argument to say it isn't an issue is that "everyone can do it" which both ignores the issue completely and spectacularly misses the whole point.

 

It's not just detrimental to PVP players, it's detrimental to every single person that plays the game.  If every street in Cherno/Electro (just one example) that is overlooked by countless vantage points has the pontential for a quite literally invisible person to sit there scoping out the area without having to physically expose themselves whilst doing so then it changes the actual gameplay dynamics in quite a fundamental (and frustrating) way.

 

As I explained in my other post about it, the only sensible tactical choice while this is an issue is to avoid those places altogether because however good I am or however aware I am of my surroundings I'm simply placing my safety in the lap of the gods and have to cross my fingers when I enter one of those areas.  Of course it should be risky, but I should at least be able to use my eyes to scan potential danger points, while this issue persists that is pointless.  They (the observer) just has to wait until my back is turned, pop up, kill me and return to safety (and invisibility).

 

If that's not a bad thing to have in the game then I don't know what is.

 

I REPEAT:  I'm not arguing for the removal of the cam, I'm not forcing a playstyle on anyone,  I'm not being a hipster, I don't need to discuss authenticity, immersion or any of the other red herrings that keep steering this topic conveniently away from this glaring issue.

 

There may not be an answer that is actually practical but to just brush it off whilst failing to see the issue honestly baffles me.  The devs have identified that is is an issue, whether it can be addressed or not is a different question and it may be the case that there is no practical solution, if that's the case I can live with that but to just pretend it isn't an issue just seems crazy to me.

 

If there's a fairly simple way of improving the game for everyone that plays it then of course it at least needs to be looked at.

 

(P.S - I'm asking you specifically Dallas because I genuinely respect your opinion and know you won't just come back with a flippant, sarcastic or overly defensive remark)

 

If you're exposed to a rock or a roof top, chances are you're exposed to several rocks and roof tops and when you're exposed, you're exposed and you will not detect every potential peaking head behind every potential cover. If you're moving slowly down an open street, carefully scanning every roof and window, looking for snipers, you're moving at a snails pace, at a speed where a mathematically challenged person as me have time enough to calculate the corret mildots on my fingers, slowly lead you, predict your path and send you back to the coast.

 

Common sense dictates that if you expose yourself in the wide open, in populated areas, you better bring a beach towel and sun block, because "vamos a la playa."

 

No it's not detrimental, it's not a big issue, people love third person and the congregate on third person servers, while first person servers are barren deserts. Not because we're all cheating bastards, but because ArmA is a more visual pleasing experience in third person.

 

I don't really care that third person can be exploited, because it can be exploited evenly by everyone on the server, which means this is not an unfair advantage, only that you can place yourself in a more advantageous position. PvP in ArmA is incredibly dynamic and fast paced, any sniper, who wants to recite the lord's prayer, before they take their one shot, one kill, will get themselves flanked, spanked and killed. If you're stationary, you better be surrounded by cover. If you're without cover and concealment, you better be moving and if you're moving, you better be unpredictable. 

 

Any attempt to enforce an intrusive intelli-cam will kill the very visual experience DayZ and ArmA is. If you think third person camera is a mess, when you enter a narrow room, wait till the camera AI decides that you're now on the verge of being a total corner exploiting deuce bag and begins to switch you betweeh first and third person. It's going to be a mess and first person players hope it's going to be a mess because they think that if third person view becomes unplayable, we'll all rush their first person servers and suddenly love and adore ladder animations.

 

I don't believe people get shot mostly because of corner peaking, I believe people get shot, because they present a stationary target at any chance they get. I'm the most friendliest of friendlies, yet I go into a murderous rage, whenever I meet another friendly in Cherno's supermarket, kneeling at the center isle, with his back exposed to the front entrance, going "I'm friendly," when I casually enter the supermarket and train my muzzle at the back of his head, while he proceed to try to fit an extra bandage into his inventory the following 45 seconds.

 

Why is it I can enter Cherno on an active server and get in and out, with out being corner capped by some exploiter, myself? I blame it on a minimum of tactical movement. Switching between crouched and standing running, depending on the surface, to attract as few zombies as possible, while maintaining a pace and a path that never exposes me to one direction for more than a few seconds max.

 

Third peron view can grant you an advantage in some situations, but if you're not constantly evaluating situations, distance and environment, you're often easily beaten by positioning and knowledge. Third person constantly works for and against you and hiding on the roof of the ATC tower, while it may grant you a great view of the airfield, you're also stuck in a stationary and predictable position.

 

 

Because they make you feel safe and warm and fuzzy inside.

 

3rd person doesn't add to the fear it lessens it significantly. Unless you are fearful of someone using an exploit.

 

Throwing the bullshit flag on the field here, thirdperson gets rid of the unknown, getting rid of fear.
 
If you're going to argue for third person, be consistent, don't say things that don't make sense. If you find it hard to say things that make sense, maybe you need to rethink your position.

First person isn't the only component to fear, otherwise COD would be labeled as horror instead of a shooter. Death and loss of progression does however and death is always imminent on third person servers. Not because of corner campers, but because third person servers are filled with players and players are to be feared in DayZ and feared in third person as well as feared in first person.

 

Personally I think DayZ's biggest problem is that death is so easily negotiated and ammunition so avaiable, because no matter where you are, you're always only a suicide away from a 3 minute run to Cherno/Elektro/Balota.

[Ken Bean 175]

Turned?

 

Meanwhile I found a solution so awesome that it just should satisfy everyone.

Instead of breaking the 3rd person, we let it as it is now.

But

The one who is in 3rd person (Dude A) gives away his position as soon as another player comes close enough (a distance which can be discussed) in the moment, the dude in 3rd person (Dude A) gets a line of sight.

 

Dude B will be warned and gets an Idea of where he is.

 

 

...

Whoa, awesome! But how he reveals his position?

 

Dud A makes a sound, can be everything from farting loud an noisey to talking rubbish to him self.

 

...

Example:

A psycho bandit cannibal (pbc) is hiding in the bush using 3rd person view.

A survivor comes near and will be seen by the pbc.

Now the pbc starts talking:

- There you are!

- Come a little closer!

- I'll eat your liver!

 

 

---

People sometimes get issues and start talking to himself without noticing it itself.

 

 

Btw, we also need a cannibal skin.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[terrvik 2409]

Okay, I'm officially done with this thread for today. I'll be back when there is some real discussions to be had.

[Zarniwoop 1193]

Been playing lots of ACE with ACRE of late, and I have to say even the 1st person of Arma2 with low FOV etc. you get used to it, after about a day of gameplay. (I at first was not againgst 3rd person)

The immersion goes through the roof, even more so when knowing that all the other players have the same perspective as you. 1st person makes things more intense, in that you don't know if there is a squad in the building you are about to enter.

 

Now when I join DayZ servers I feel that I am somehow cheating by using third but force myself to use it due to the massive dissadvantage I would be at. 

 

The FOV slider I see in the SA makes me really happy, and hope to see many 1st person only servers appear. 

 

Mabe if the people dishing 1st person play a bit of ACE with no 3rd person, they may get used to it too, as did I.

 

Regards

 

PS I know I am late to this thread.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Zarniwoop

[tommes 331]

Sorry it was a silly response to a silly statement by tommes , I should not have risen to the bait , My apologies .

cheers

It was neither silly or bait. It is absolutely no effort developing wise to turn off TPV. Time could be solely spend on making everything else better.

It is no problem to play in a 1st person only perspective if engine peformance and controls are smooth. There's thousands of 1st person games proving that.

[Wayze 549]

 @ 

 

 

I realize my tone may be a little aggressive, but I while I enjoy third person view, I'm not a cheater and exploiter and I'm tired of the accusation, not from you, but third person view now has this connotation. 

 

I know Rocket dismisses the removal of third person views, but it's still the underlying premises in the very original post. Those that have no interest in third person have successfully re-defined third person view as an outright cheat, instead of a popular choice.

 

Forcing people into first person every time they go prone, would be like forcing everyone into iron sights evey time they pull the trigger. Who am I to dictate that all people should be forced to shoot through sights, simply because sights, if used correctly can be more accurate. Iron sights and scopes is not an accuracy cheat, just like the virtual crosshair Shack Tac uses isn't an aimbot cheat. Shack Tac disables third person view, but enables crosshairs, because many of them use TrackerIRs and crosshairs works as an invaluable aid with TIR. This is legit for me, I don't like crosshairs myself, but ArmA isn't a narrow platform, where I get to dictate, how other people run their servers.

 

 

 

 

 

The first poll: 99 vs 37 prefer first person.

Second poll: 406 vs 30 prefer first person.

 

Dslyseci's video has 3000 likes and 44 dislikes.

 

 

 

The question is not what is an exploit and what is legit gameplay, the question is what is wrong with first person, since so many people, who either prefer first person, pretend to favor first person to appease a popular youtuber or to appear "elite," all these people lend their full support to first person and show their disdain for third person, because it's a cheat, an exploit, a n00b trait, yet all these people, freely congregate on third person servers, because they can't fill up a 30-50 person server.

 

Where are all the first person players at?

 

What's so wrong about first person view, that even vast majority of first person players, would rather submit themselves to so-called cheating, than to play on servers, that completely eliminate this "cheating" by enforcing a higher difficulty level?

 

I believe there is a disconnect between wanting to appear hardcore elite and then the desire to have a decent experience, while putting in the many many hours, required to play the harsh grind, survival is suppose to be in DayZ. ArmA and DayZ offers a beautiful scenery and great looking player models, yet when your play ArmA/DayZ in first person, you're constantly looking at awkward ladder climbing animations, awkward weapons animations, getting crushed, fall off high places or exposing your extremities, because first person does a really poor job of simulating physical awareness.

 

 

 

If you're exposed to a rock or a roof top, chances are you're exposed to several rocks and roof tops and when you're exposed, you're exposed and you will not detect every potential peaking head behind every potential cover. If you're moving slowly down an open street, carefully scanning every roof and window, looking for snipers, you're moving at a snails pace, at a speed where a mathematically challenged person as me have time enough to calculate the corret mildots on my fingers, slowly lead you, predict your path and send you back to the coast.

 

Common sense dictates that if you expose yourself in the wide open, in populated areas, you better bring a beach towel and sun block, because "vamos a la playa."

 

No it's not detrimental, it's not a big issue, people love third person and the congregate on third person servers, while first person servers are barren deserts. Not because we're all cheating bastards, but because ArmA is a more visual pleasing experience in third person.

 

I don't really care that third person can be exploited, because it can be exploited evenly by everyone on the server, which means this is not an unfair advantage, only that you can place yourself in a more advantageous position. PvP in ArmA is incredibly dynamic and fast paced, any sniper, who wants to recite the lord's prayer, before they take their one shot, one kill, will get themselves flanked, spanked and killed. If you're stationary, you better be surrounded by cover. If you're without cover and concealment, you better be moving and if you're moving, you better be unpredictable. 

 

Any attempt to enforce an intrusive intelli-cam will kill the very visual experience DayZ and ArmA is. If you think third person camera is a mess, when you enter a narrow room, wait till the camera AI decides that you're now on the verge of being a total corner exploiting deuce bag and begins to switch you betweeh first and third person. It's going to be a mess and first person players hope it's going to be a mess because they think that if third person view becomes unplayable, we'll all rush their first person servers and suddenly love and adore ladder animations.

 

I don't believe people get shot mostly because of corner peaking, I believe people get shot, because they present a stationary target at any chance they get. I'm the most friendliest of friendlies, yet I go into a murderous rage, whenever I meet another friendly in Cherno's supermarket, kneeling at the center isle, with his back exposed to the front entrance, going "I'm friendly," when I casually enter the supermarket and train my muzzle at the back of his head, while he proceed to try to fit an extra bandage into his inventory the following 45 seconds.

 

Why is it I can enter Cherno on an active server and get in and out, with out being corner capped by some exploiter, myself? I blame it on a minimum of tactical movement. Switching between crouched and standing running, depending on the surface, to attract as few zombies as possible, while maintaining a pace and a path that never exposes me to one direction for more than a few seconds max.

 

Third peron view can grant you an advantage in some situations, but if you're not constantly evaluating situations, distance and environment, you're often easily beaten by positioning and knowledge. Third person constantly works for and against you and hiding on the roof of the ATC tower, while it may grant you a great view of the airfield, you're also stuck in a stationary and predictable position.

 

 

 

First person isn't the only component to fear, otherwise COD would be labeled as horror instead of a shooter. Death and loss of progression does however and death is always imminent on third person servers. Not because of corner campers, but because third person servers are filled with players and players are to be feared in DayZ and feared in third person as well as feared in first person.

 

Personally I think DayZ's biggest problem is that death is so easily negotiated and ammunition so avaiable, because no matter where you are, you're always only a suicide away from a 3 minute run to Cherno/Elektro/Balota.

I really don't know why you wrote this much, everything you just wrote does not apply for the standalone. I repeat myself here, but the standalones core elements are totally different from those of the mod. It will be a completly different game.

However, I really want the standalone to atleast give us the chance to play first person. If there will be servers with first person with many people on them I would really like to play them. However, the first few days I will 100% play on a third person server, just to see the animations and give feedback for the developer. But later on I want to play on FPV server, which will probably not avaible because the admins can decide what the want.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Wayze

[tommes 331]

Mabe if the people dishing 1st person play a bit of ACE with no 3rd person, they may get used to it too, as did I.

That is why I think forcing players into 1st person might at least lead some players onto the path of light. Sometimes people need some extrinsical motivation. In plain English: They need to be kicked in the ass to move it. Once they're in motion they might feel good about themselves.

[tommes 331]

However, the first few days I will 100% play on a third person server, just to see the animations and give feedback for the developer.

Look at your teammates for animations. That's what we did back then before the great war. ^^

[RedNome 443]

I really don't know why you wrote this much, everything you just wrote does not apply for the standalone. I repeat myself here, but the standalones core elements are totally different from those of the mod. It will be a completly different game.

However, I really want the standalone to atleast give us the chance to play first person. If there will be servers with first person with many people on them I would really like to play them. However, the first few days I will 100% play on a third person server, just to see the animations and give feedback for the developer. But later on I want to play on FPV server, which will probably not avaible because the admins can decide what the want.

 

Not at all, you will be free to set up your own first person server, so there is no problem for you here at all, just this time you'll be giving back to the community for a change instead of taking.

[Wayze 549]

Look at your teammates for animations. That's what we did back then before the great war. ^^

There will be no teammates :D

 

 

 

Not at all, you will be free to set up your own first person server, so there is no problem for you here at all, just this time you'll be giving back to the community for a change instead of taking.

Nope.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Wayze