First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[SmashT 10907]

The real problem with 3rd person servers isn't that a legit feature is somehow attempted to be described as an exploit. The problem with 3rd person servers is that they fill up faster than 1st person servers and since most players select their servers based on population, rather than difficulty settings, means that all you scores of 1st person players, end up joining servers with settings you disagree with.

 

The problem is also that ArmA/OFP and even DayZ was not designed as being an exclusive first person platform and the decision to cut an existing feature from DayZ and based on server population, the most popular feature, must be considered with extreme caution. I equal removing 3rd person view from DayZ as extreme as removing PvP.

Third person isn't being removed, they are proposing a compromise to eliminate the worst of the offending issues with third person.

Edited August 29, 2013 by SmashT

[SMLE 39]

The problem here is obviously that rocket thinks that most people actually want third person to be in the game because they play on third person servers. But actually I really don't believe that, there are so many other reasons why we all play on third person server, but that does not mean that we like it. But I really think that Dean thinks the majority actually likes it and that is why it is in their. But this logic is just totally stupid.

Like we all can see most of the people play on servers with 50.000 AS50s per m², but does that mean that actually all of those people like to play on these servers or maybe the mod was not survival enough so it turned into a deathmatch.

Anyway, I really think this should not be something for an admin to decide, because obviously they will be the same people who also made the DayZ Mod servers. And I really don't know how Dean wants to pay these servers, because sooner or later the admins have no input because the AS50 donation packs just miss, so they will shut down the servers. Anyway, my point is that admins should not have any right to decide over the gameplay of the game. I want first person servers to be seperated from the third person servers. But if you give the admins the choice in the end there will be just like 2 first person servers.

I was reading a post today buy Mr Hall and he said he is designing a game that he would like to play , and he likes 3rd person view I guess he will design what he wants and this Thread is pointless , but I still think is good to try and get our voices heard , even the 1st Person camp :P

cheers

[-Gews- 7443]

This is why I say have the option to play on the server type you like , no more work for the devs , no testing , its all there now .

cheers

 

Except following that, we end up with hundreds of INSANE PvP | RIFLE SPAWN | EXTRA BARRACKS | 1000+ VEHICLES + LOOT | 24/7 DAY | CH:ON | TAGS:ON servers.

 

Which hopefully the standalone will curtail. And hopefully it will make adjustments to the poor implementation of third-person as well.

[TIC 1050]

Except following that, we end up with hundreds of INSANE PvP | RIFLE SPAWN | EXTRA BARRACKS | 1000+ VEHICLES + LOOT | 24/7 DAY | CH:ON | TAGS:ON servers.

 

Which hopefully the standalone will curtail. And hopefully it will make adjustments to the poor implementation of third-person as well.

 

Yeah, can't really call it DayZ at that point when all those are available to the players. Makes me wish some people would play ARMA 2 if it will only promote player vs player with all the things available at their disposal :P

[SMLE 39]

When did Rocket ever say he wanted players to be happy?

 

I remember quotes saying the complete opposite.

LOL , when I say happy I mean engaged enough to keep playing/paying .

cheers

[dallas 5195]

Third person isn't being removed, they are proposing a compromise to eliminate the worst of the offending issues with third person.

I think it's silly.

 

There are no offending issues for people, who prefer playing on third person servers, because they prefer playing in third person view.

 

It's only offensive to players, who prefer another difficulty setting, but joins a lower difficulty setting, because these servers are easier filled. This is why they attempt to describe a lower difficulty setting as a cheat, exploit, a somehow unfair advantage, which it isn't. It's a difficulty preference or an aesthetic preference available to anyone on the server, except for those who refuses to use it.

 

First person players could care less about third person servers, if they were able to fill their own servers, but they all refuse to congregate on first person server and instead of addressing this issue, they try to force third person player on to their servers. How come you guys can't fill any first person servers, I think that's a relevant question to answer, before we start removing third person, PvP or zombies from DayZ?

[SMLE 39]

Third person isn't being removed, they are proposing a compromise to eliminate the worst of the offending issues with third person.

Again no offending issues for the people who like 3rd person and will be playing on those servers , it is not broken don't fix it .

cheers

[SmashT 10907]

I was reading a post today buy Mr Hall and he said he is designing a game that he would like to play , and he likes 3rd person view I guess he will design what he wants and this Thread is pointless , but I still think is good to try and get our voices heard , even the 1st Person camp :P

cheers

The devs have already taken suggestions from this topic and from Reddit. The devs have already acknowledged there are problems/exploits associated with third person currently (whether you agree or not is irrelevant) and they are proposing a compromise to eliminate those issues.

The topic is only pointless if you continue the circular first vs third person argument, since neither parties are going to agree and the devs aren't planning on removing third person anyway. They are however proposing changes to third person so it would be beneficial to discuss those proposals or suggest alternatives. The ones they are currently looking at include:

• A context sensitive approach forcing players into a closer camera or first person depending on what they are doing. For example first person when prone, close over the shoulder cam when crouched.
• A fixed lower third person camera that can't be moved around to look over walls.

Edited August 29, 2013 by SmashT

[SMLE 39]

Except following that, we end up with hundreds of INSANE PvP | RIFLE SPAWN | EXTRA BARRACKS | 1000+ VEHICLES + LOOT | 24/7 DAY | CH:ON | TAGS:ON servers.

 

Which hopefully the standalone will curtail. And hopefully it will make adjustments to the poor implementation of third-person as well.

Me thinks you exaggerate a bit :) but I agree there are some crazy weird servers out there but they are private servers and they will still be there in standalone I expect , but to each their own Im not going to tell people how to play the game and I expect the same courtesy .

Why change 3rd person view if you don't play that style ?

cheers

[SmashT 10907]

I think it's silly.

 

There are no offending issues for people, who prefer playing on third person servers, because they prefer playing in third person view.

 

It's only offensive to players, who prefer another difficulty setting, but joins a lower difficulty setting, because these servers are easier filled. This is why they attempt to describe a lower difficulty setting as a cheat, exploit, a somehow unfair advantage, which it isn't. It's a difficulty preference or an aesthetic preference available to anyone on the server, except for those who refuses to use it.

 

First person players could care less about third person servers, if they were able to fill their own servers, but they all refuse to congregate on first person server and instead of addressing this issue, they try to force third person player on to their servers. How come you guys can't fill any first person servers, I think that's a relevant question to answer, before we start removing third person, PvP or zombies from DayZ?

Again no offending issues for the people who like 3rd person and will be playing on those servers , it is not broken don't fix it .

cheers

I play entirely on third person servers, I prefer third person view in DayZ. I still want the issues with third person fixed (looking over walls, sitting on a rooftop and seeing everything at no risk). Stop trying to turn this into an issue that only concerns first person players.

Edited August 29, 2013 by SmashT

[dallas 5195]

But isn't the primary problem with third person, that first person players joins third person servers instead of first person servers?

 

I don't have any problem with with people peeking around corners, because I'm always constantly on the move in populated areas and I constantly change direction at every corner and I constantly avoid tall buildings or other advantageous sniper positions to the so inclined. My survivability has nothing to do with third person, but rather how I travel along concealed corridors and generally present a hard and fleeting target.

 

First or third person, if you're a sitting duck, you're a sitting duck.

[SmashT 10907]

No, the problem is you can see around corners, over walls, out of windows, sit on a rooftop, look in a doorway and see everything with no risk of being seen yourself. It's a gameplay balance issue. Why do you want these issues to remain in game when many of them can be fixed and don't require third person to be removed?

[Heiduk 265]

But why must there be compromise on a server set that people are totally happy with and you wont be playing on anyway ?

 

When assessing the happiness of the community you may want to consider that this thread has more than 1,000 posts and 11,000 views. Meanwhile, after a week, Dslyecxi's video has 30,000 views and 1,300 comments; that comment total puts it in the same neighborhood as some of his videos with 100,000+ views that have been up for years. I haven't checked but I'm sure there is a lengthy Reddit thread as well.

 

Considering those numbers I'm pretty sure "totally happy" is not the adjective I would choose. Deeply divided, polarized, perhaps but not totally happy. 

[TheDesigner 1197]

But isn't the primary problem with third person, that first person players joins third person servers instead of first person servers?

I don't have any problem with with people peeking around corners, because I'm always constantly on the move in populated areas and I constantly change direction at every corner and I constantly avoid tall buildings or other advantageous sniper positions to the so inclined. My survivability has nothing to do with third person, but rather how I travel along concealed corridors and generally present a hard and fleeting target.

First or third person, if you're a sitting duck, you're a sitting duck.

What about things like suppression or snipers? Snipers are very effective for pinning whole squads down because, in FPV, they need to expose themselves to either return fire or find said sniper. In TPV, you just hide behind a wall and scan. Same with suppression. You can't pin a guy when he can already be aiming at your torso as he pops out from behind cover.

What about attempting to flank someone who is suppressed? He can just use his magical third eye to see you moving while behind cover and be ready for you,

As I mentioned in another post, gunplay, effective tactics, and suppression will be on par with COD in DayZ until third person is removed or if you play on a FPV only server. Trust me, after switching from FPV only servers to TPV servers, my enjoyment in DayZ plummeted. Also, TPV gives the player a HUUUGE advantage over FPV players. To the point where you can't beat them, you must join them, or you will continue to die.

This community rants about bandit skins being unrealistic and gun damage being unrealistic, but somehow the magical third eye 90% of people play with is fine.

"That's realistic, because it gives ME an advantage, and that's fine!"

Edited August 29, 2013 by TheDesigner

[DemonGroover 8836]

I think the relevant issue is Rocket, the developer, has stated he thinks there are issues with 3rd person in his game and he wishes to fix them.

 

The only issue now is what fixes can be made. 

 

Change, like choice, can be good too.

[SMLE 39]

 

The devs have already taken suggestions from this topic and from Reddit. The devs have already acknowledged there are problems/exploits associated with third person currently (whether you agree or not is irrelevant) and they are proposing a compromise to eliminate those issues.

The topic is only pointless if you continue the circular first vs third person argument, since neither parties are going to agree and the devs aren't planning on removing third person anyway. They are however proposing changes to third person so it would be beneficial to discuss those proposals or suggest alternatives. The ones they are currently looking at include:

• A context sensitive approach forcing players into a closer camera or first person depending on what they are doing. For example first person when prone, close over the shoulder cam when crouched.
• A fixed lower third person camera that can't be moved around to look over walls.

 

You said it yourself "neither party is going to agree" there will be servers for the 2 play styles why not let the 2 groups play as they like , I keep harping on this point because nobody has told me why It cant be so , all I get is "its an exploite" its not an exploite to those that like 3rd person view and they are not here complaining , the vast silent majority of players .

  The complaints are coming from a few 1st person view fanatics that cant get servers or just think their way is the only way .

As you say Mr Hall will make the final call and rightly so but I will continue to voice my opinion until you or someone gives me a valid reason why we cant play as we like given the options are already there and everybody would be happy , no further dev work required .

cheers

[TheDesigner 1197]

You said it yourself "neither party is going to agree" there will be servers for the 2 play styles why not let the 2 groups play as they like , I keep harping on this point because nobody has told me why It cant be so , all I get is "its an exploite" its not an exploite to those that like 3rd person view and they are not here complaining , the vast silent majority of players .

The complaints are coming from a few 1st person view fanatics that cant get servers or just think their way is the only way .

As you say Mr Hall will make the final call and rightly so but I will continue to voice my opinion until you or someone gives me a valid reason why we cant play as we like given the options are already there and everybody would be happy , no further dev work required .

cheers

No party will agree, but TPV players can not say that they choose the more realistic and authentic option. That is all I'm trying to argue.

FPV players and TPV players will never be able to mingle on servers fairly, since FPV players do not get a camera to peek over walls.

Edited August 29, 2013 by TheDesigner

[SMLE 39]

 

I play entirely on third person servers, I prefer third person view in DayZ. I still want the issues with third person fixed (looking over walls, sitting on a rooftop and seeing everything at no risk). Stop trying to turn this into an issue that only concerns first person players.

 

Great you are the first person from the 3rd person view camp that has asked for change , that's 1 , how many people like playing in 3rd person view as it stands now ? about 80 to 90 % of players .

cheers

[SMLE 39]

I think the relevant issue is Rocket, the developer, has stated he thinks there are issues with 3rd person in his game and he wishes to fix them.

 

The only issue now is what fixes can be made. 

 

Change, like choice, can be good too.

Ok that's something I can go with , Link please .

cheers

[SmashT 10907]

You said it yourself "neither party is going to agree" there will be servers for the 2 play styles why not let the 2 groups play as they like , I keep harping on this point because nobody has told me why It cant be so , all I get is "its an exploite" its not an exploite to those that like 3rd person view and they are not here complaining , the vast silent majority of players .

  The complaints are coming from a few 1st person view fanatics that cant get servers or just think their way is the only way .

As you say Mr Hall will make the final call and rightly so but I will continue to voice my opinion until you or someone gives me a valid reason why we cant play as we like given the options are already there and everybody would be happy , no further dev work required .

cheers

 

Yes neither party is going to agree in an argument over first vs third person, again though that isn't the issue if you read that quote in context. If you don't want to discuss the current proposals for third person that is your prerogative but it would be good to hear views from both sides on the current proposals instead of this circular argument over whether you prefer first or third person.

Edited August 29, 2013 by SmashT

[SMLE 39]

No party will agree, but TPV players can not say that they choose the more realistic and authentic option. That is all I'm trying to argue.

FPV players and TPV players will never be able to mingle on servers fairly, since FPV players do not get a camera to peek over walls.

I agree 1st person view is "more realistic" than 3rd person but dayZ is not all about realistic .

cheers

[SMLE 39]

Yes neither party is going to agree in an argument over first vs third person, again though that isn't the issue if you read that quote in context. If you don't want to discuss the current proposals for third person that is your prerogative but it would be good to hear views from both sides on the current proposals instead of this circular argument over whether you prefer first or third person.

This thread is called "first V third person discussion" yes ?

I am talking about the two play styles 1st V 3rd and weather either need "fixing" at all .

Others and yourself have jumped straight past the topic at hand , decided 3rd person needs fixing as opposed to fixing 1st person and are trying to point this Thread in a predetermined direction .

All im saying is we have options , alternatives , to butchering a play style the vast majorite like .

Its like talking about building a house and oh we'll talk about the foundations later .

cheers

[dallas 5195]

Trust me, I too ha

 

I think the relevant issue is Rocket, the developer, has stated he thinks there are issues with 3rd person in his game and he wishes to fix them.

 

The only issue now is what fixes can be made. 

 

Change, like choice, can be good too.

 

With emphasis on "can."

 

This discussion is also reinvigorated by one of BI community's most predominant members, a sworn first person player, rehashing old first person arguments. Which is something I struggle with understanding, how come first person players, care what happens on third person servers?

 

Dslyxsi prefers first person view, that's his prerogative. I do not.

Dslyxsi prefers virtual cross hairs, that's his prerogative. I do not.

 

I have no problem, with people choosing to enforce their difficulty settings on their servers, because BI designed their engine to be highly customizable, from mods, to addons, mission editing and difficulty settings. I'm not going to argue about FOV, but I think it's a very limited view of Real Virtuality to limit it to being a FPS, because it was never exclusively designed as a FPS and it's rough edges shows in first person.

 

Try climbing a ladder in first person or freelook over your shoulder, first person can be a real aesthetical challenge in ArmA 2/DayZ and interacting with Real Virtuality in first person also has it's own problems. Try aiming around a corner or fitting your body behind cover, without leaving your foot exposed, which offers your opponent opportunity to inflict lethal damage.

 

As I see it first person offers a more intense experience, third person offers a more visual experience. I've got no problem with either, I just have a preference for one of them. A player such as Dslyexsi, who has never had any intentions of playing in third person view, why do he care if, I accept that the third person perspective that I so enjoy, can be used against me? We do not congregate on the same servers, we never will.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Dallas

[TheDesigner 1197]

I agree 1st person view is "more realistic" than 3rd person but dayZ is not all about realistic .

cheers

What is DayZ about then?

(Also, I stated no where that DayZ is all about the realism, even though it is. The realism in DayZ is what distinguishes it from just another Left 4 Dead wanna-be)

[dallas 5195]

DayZ's primary selling feature is the authentic experience of survival and the emotions, such as: Fear, greed, paranoia, desperation, which you can experience in both first and third person.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Dallas