Bandit/Survivor Morphing to be removed

[liukang168 4]

I can already see myself sneak up on a group, silently remove one of the team take his cloths ... and you know the rest of the story :)

[callahan9119 7]

200 and some square kilometers with max 50 people. This is nothing like a CoD game. If you keep dying to other players' date=' stop being impatient/lazy/stupid.

[/quote']

This.

Full PVP and permadeath is what makes this game so different from the other thousand games out there.

If you keep ranting just because you got killed maybe THIS isn't the game for you.

Dying is part of the game. You don't want to kill someone? Good. But that's YOUR choice.

Most of the time doing the right thing (eg. not killing someone) is very unlikely the more logical thing to do, especially in this situation when "Kill or be killed" is something you have to deal every hour of gameplay. You shouldn't kill someone because that's a moral rule YOU have imposed on yourself. We shouldn't "be good" just because "otherwise I get punished". That's a very hypocritical approach on "being good".

We came into this game because it was unfair, unbalanced and most importantly different. This is a tornado of fresh air in gaming. For ages we had to deal with EXTREMELY EASY games and gameplay. Now we have DayZ. Let us play.

What a load of nonsense. Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to kill people, straw man arguments abound. It's not a "self imposed moral rule", it's part of our evolution. The only people who punish you are the other survivors. You want to be able to be a psychopath? That's fine, be a psychopath, but you should expect consequences. You want to shoot a guy over the excuse of beans because you're to lazy to go a couple minutes over there to get some, that's your choice.

You want to be a total douchebag? Wear the douchebag colors then.

Why do people kill bandits? Because they are dangerous people and the community rightly judges them to be apart from them. You want to behave in a way that alienates you and makes you an outcast, but you don't want to have to deal with the survivors judgments about your behavior.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to do those things, but you should not be immune to any consequences....which you are when the bandit skin is gone. When you say "we" you mean you, you don't speak for me.

People want to act like assholes and not have to worry about dealing with the consequences.

The bandit mechanic should have been improved, not removed.

[Tassadarh 2]

200 and some square kilometers with max 50 people. This is nothing like a CoD game. If you keep dying to other players' date=' stop being impatient/lazy/stupid.

[/quote']

This.

Full PVP and permadeath is what makes this game so different from the other thousand games out there.

If you keep ranting just because you got killed maybe THIS isn't the game for you.

Dying is part of the game. You don't want to kill someone? Good. But that's YOUR choice.

Most of the time doing the right thing (eg. not killing someone) is very unlikely the more logical thing to do, especially in this situation when "Kill or be killed" is something you have to deal every hour of gameplay. You shouldn't kill someone because that's a moral rule YOU have imposed on yourself. We shouldn't "be good" just because "otherwise I get punished". That's a very hypocritical approach on "being good".

We came into this game because it was unfair, unbalanced and most importantly different. This is a tornado of fresh air in gaming. For ages we had to deal with EXTREMELY EASY games and gameplay. Now we have DayZ. Let us play.

What a load of nonsense. Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to kill people, straw man arguments abound. It's not a "self imposed moral rule", it's part of our evolution. The only people who punish you are the other survivors. You want to be able to be a psychopath? That's fine, be a psychopath, but you should expect consequences. You want to shoot a guy over the excuse of beans because you're to lazy to go a couple minutes over there to get some, that's your choice.

You want to be a total douchebag? Wear the douchebag colors then.

Why do people kill bandits? Because they are dangerous people and the community rightly judges them to be apart from them. You want to behave in a way that alienates you and makes you an outcast, but you don't want to have to deal with the survivors judgments about your behavior.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to do those things, but you should not be immune to any consequences....which you are when the bandit skin is gone. When you say "we" you mean you, you don't speak for me.

People want to act like assholes and not have to worry about dealing with the consequences.

The bandit mechanic should have been improved, not removed.

There shouldn't have been ANY bandit mechanic at all! Does people in RL have a label on their heads? No and that's what makes RL hard and challenging.

Why does everyone wants the GAME to all the job?

Right now is very easy to report bandits (just say their names in the global chat and they are screwed, no one will trust them anymore). And that's PLAYERS job, not gameplay.

What are we gonna do in the future when the global chat is gone? We'll start telling legends and stories to those we met, telling them to do not trust this or that player.

And that's a players driven mechanism. All we have to do is start to be creative and solve problems by our own and not asking for a "God message from the sky/easy gameplay mechanics" for every problem.

And afterall, I don't really think the "bandits" sees DayZ some sort of "big world deathmatch". We're still 50 players per servers, it's not THAT easy to find someone and deathmatch lovers want everything to be FAST. DayZ is everything but fast.

[callahan9119 7]

Removing the skins makes it "easier" for the asshats or professional psychopaths. There is not enough communication capabilities to properly replicate human interaction. Bandits were a gameplay element that enabled us to recognize someone as dangerous, not a frozen face that looks exactly like me who can stand there mute while you ask them "friendly?"

[robosheriff 13]

There shouldn't have been ANY bandit mechanic at all! Does people in RL have a label on their heads? No and that's what makes RL hard and challenging.

Why does everyone wants the GAME to all the job?

altho i agree with most of that text' date=' im sorry to be the first guy to say to you this is not real life and this being a GAME its really hard to please all its players.

Personally i think that the skin was a good idea because people tend to be shitty while given the opportunity i mean i've done it. And i always try to play the game in the less shittiest way possible but sometimes it happens. At least people had green light to shoot you for being an asshole lol.

Just relax and enjoy the experience.

Why does everyone wants the GAME to all the job?

What?

[Tassadarh 2]

And don't you love it?

You're on a constant lookout, not being able to trust 100% anyone.

Sure there'll be psychopaths who kill whoever they came across (I think their are a part of the post-apocalyptic environment afterall), but also there won't be anymore "good zone". We are all gonna dwell in a grayish zone where you might have to "break some eggs to make an omelette".

And... come one... communication capabilities? Like there's any way to tell if someone is a bandit or not even if you put all our senses in the game...

Even in RL they will answer "I'm friendly!" with a full smile before stabbing you in the back.

Players on a server are somewhat the same everytime. There will be known bandits in the server and the people (except newcomers) are gonna start to avoid them/kill them.

I met a guy few days ago, saying "hey come over here". I asked in the global chat who he was and people said it was a bandit. In the end I got killed, but the next time I'm gonna be more careful and listen more to the other players!

Remove the bandit skins at once, then we'll start to rely more on the community of the server.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

Full PVP and permadeath is what makes this game so different from the other thousand games out there.

Not true. There's no permadeath.. permadeath is real life' date=' here we have infinite respawn, and with all the necessary to kill other players without much troubles (because of the realistic bullet damage). This is the MAIN problem of the game: since you can play over and over again, you do "stupidity".. or to be exact you do things that you would never do in real life. Is it bad? Maybe not, it's a game after all.. but there's certain players that may likes to play an immersive game. These players are now "forced" to play mostly alone, or with real life friends, because most of the other players are doing this death match. With the bandit skin we had a chance to recognize those players, and so when you encontered another player with a survivor skin and with NO basic gear (you may recognize the backpack.. the rifle..) you know that the guy is mostly like a "serious" player, that didn't spent the whole time doing nothing than shooting everyone, everymoment, everywhere... for no reasons. Without the bandit skin now it will be a single player game.. you just live at the north city with the oter 10% of players, while the other 90% is trolling in cherno doing rambos, respawing on the beach thousand times.. forever. Great way to ruin a such great game.

There shouldn't have been ANY bandit mechanic at all! Does people in RL have a label on their heads? No and that's what makes RL hard and challenging.

As explained above, ppl not act like in RL, because they are not risking their life. They can respawn infinite times. What i have to loose if you kill me? After 5 minutes i will be there again with my makaraov.. and again.. and again.. and again... for a matter of probability you'll die first or late. Do you call this real life? No, i call this childish playing.

And afterall, I don't really think the "bandits" sees DayZ some sort of "big world deathmatch". We're still 50 players per servers, it's not THAT easy to find someone and deathmatch lovers want everything to be FAST. DayZ is everything but fast.

Not that easy? From how long you don't play? There's ppl spamming in chat to arrange the "duels" in cherno... and most of the players in any damn servers are sitting there sniping.. without even trying to loot the victims, just because they know that in any FPS you need to shot the "enemy". I know i can leave cherno, and in fact i do, but at this point.. as i mentioned already.. i'll play a single player game.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Lol @ Callahan. I'm playing as an 'Elite Asshat', in your books, it would seem. Your tears fuel me so, that I'm going to name my character after you, in your honour. Oh, the beautiful blood I shall shed, all the time, playing as you.

:D

[Tassadarh 2]

Why does everyone wants the GAME to all the job?

What?

I meant that it was pretty lazy from us to expect the game to tell us who we should shoot.

If we keep the bandit skins, it's like having a HUGE help from the game itself telling us almost "everything" of that person just by our first sight. That is quite a passive interaction between players.

Instead I proposed a more "active" way of interaction, forcing the community to stick together as much as possible.

Right now no one can "fake" their identity in the chat room or when is being "inspected". We KNOW the name of the person in front of us.

That is pretty unrealistic but I think that's a good compromise.

Now, if we know the person in front of us is a well known bandit on the server we know what to do. That will only lead to straighten the community and forcing people to cooperate. If you want to be alone, you should be a bandit.

As for the "it's a game" part.

Yes, I know that. Even Battlefield 3 is a game, even The Sims is a game.

But DayZ relies on his realism and lack of balancing, trying to best represent a fictional post-apocalyptic universe where the saying "Everyman for himself and God against all" is on every lips.

ANYWAY I pretty much explained my point of view and it's pretty clear we have very different ideas on how the game should develop.

If I sounded a bit rude I apologize myself but I wanted to be extremely clear on the subject trying to "make my voice count" in the discussion as I think you did =)

[JohnnyDerp 4]

200 and some square kilometers with max 50 people. This is nothing like a CoD game. If you keep dying to other players' date=' stop being impatient/lazy/stupid.

[/quote']

Nicely missed the whole point. There is already no incentive to survive (which was the point of this survival sim) and now that there is no repercussion for killin the game will just become an deathmatch Arma game.

I like your passive agresive tone, but as far as I have read no one is complaining about dying too much. Perhaps you will when we all camp at the beach, since there is no need to 'survive,' and no penalty for doing deathmatch all day.

In all honesty, I didn't read your post. I just responded to the thread title and the general tone. Once again, 200+ square kilometers with 50 dudes. How is this a traditional deathmatch?

[callahan9119 7]

Lol @ Callahan. I'm playing as an 'Elite Asshat'' date=' in your books, it would seem. Your tears fuel me so, that I'm going to name my character after you, in your honour. Oh, the beautiful blood I shall shed, all the time, playing as you.

:D

[/quote']

That's fine dude, I don't mind anybody playing as an epic asshole. Do your fucking thing bro. I just think you should be a "bandit". Like how it has been, although the threshold should be higher so just defending yourself didn't make you one, or some other fix to the mechanic.

I have no problem with there being murderous, horrible human players, they should just be bandits. That's the argument that gets lost in this.

[The Killing Joke 43]

I have no problem with there being murderous' date=' horrible human players, they should just be bandits. That's the argument that gets lost in this.[/quote']

I don't think it's been lost per se. I'd like to think everybody who's sensible sees the fact that arbitrarily being assigned a skin is an unfair mechanic. For example, if you assigned a different skin for people who did excessive amounts of good deeds - a "white knight", for example - that person would become a target as well.

Bad behaviour shouldn't be punished, except when deemed an exploit, such as spawn camping. There are, however, much better solutions to this type of problem.

[callahan9119 7]

I have no problem with there being murderous' date=' horrible human players, they should just be bandits. That's the argument that gets lost in this.[/quote']

I don't think it's been lost per se. I'd like to think everybody who's sensible sees the fact that arbitrarily being assigned a skin is an unfair mechanic. For example, if you assigned a different skin for people who did excessive amounts of good deeds - a "white knight", for example - that person would become a target as well.

Bad behaviour shouldn't be punished, except when deemed an exploit, such as spawn camping. There are, however, much better solutions to this type of problem.

It isn't arbitrary, or it shouldn't be if properly implemented. That's the thing. You should be represented as what you are and how you behave, it is a game and that is functionally important, so gameplay mechanics such as that should be implemented. I have no problem with me "looking" like a "good guy" because that's how I am, how I behave. And I'll leave it up to the other survivors to judge me and react accordingly to that.

That's the thing in a nutshell. I don't mind that I'm a helpful or benevolent or kind being represented by my skin, because I go to the trouble to be altruistic, or in the worst case benevolently neutral. No problem, skin me as that.

If you are evil, a criminal or just a psychopath, you should be represented as such.

Things must be conveyed within the limitations of gameplay that we would decide through real human interaction. Those real thins cannot be represented realistically or functionally, so you need a gameplay mechanic to facilitate that.

You have to consider gameplay, and not tenuous arguments about "realism", which are baseless in my opinion, given the limitations of the mod and it's foundation engine.

[Fenixx 0]

I don't necessaries think the bandit skin should have been removed entirely, but the Idea should be improved apon a bit.

Its relitivly easy for people who spend along time in the world to know who has a reputation as a bandit but not for the more casual player.

I think a modification of the humanity system could work. As you murder and loot more people, your humanity gets worse and worse, and the color of your name and tag change depending on how good/evil you are. Eventually leading to the bandit skin and tag in red.

If you only murder 1 or 2 people a day, then youd be always green / orange, but a persistent bandit would be always orange or red.

It kind of simulates "word of mouth" of people talking about a player whos playing dirty.

[callahan9119 7]

I don't necessaries think the bandit skin should have been removed entirely' date=' but the Idea should be improved apon a bit.

Its relitivly easy for people who spend along time in the world to know who has a reputation as a bandit but not for the more casual player.

I think a modification of the humanity system could work. As you murder and loot more people, your humanity gets worse and worse, and the color of your name and tag change depending on how good/evil you are. Eventually leading to the bandit skin and tag in red.

If you only murder 1 or 2 people a day, then youd be always green / orange, but a persistent bandit would be always orange or red.

It kind of simulates "word of mouth" of people talking about a player whos playing dirty.

[/quote']

That's just about what I think. It should not have been abandoned entirely.

[BL1P 252]

I have no problem with there being murderous' date=' horrible human players, they should just be bandits. That's the argument that gets lost in this.[/quote']

I don't think it's been lost per se. I'd like to think everybody who's sensible sees the fact that arbitrarily being assigned a skin is an unfair mechanic. For example, if you assigned a different skin for people who did excessive amounts of good deeds - a "white knight", for example - that person would become a target as well.

Bad behaviour shouldn't be punished, except when deemed an exploit, such as spawn camping. There are, however, much better solutions to this type of problem.

It isn't arbitrary, or it shouldn't be if properly implemented. That's the thing. You should be represented as what you are and how you behave, it is a game and that is functionally important, so gameplay mechanics such as that should be implemented. I have no problem with me "looking" like a "good guy" because that's how I am, how I behave. And I'll leave it up to the other survivors to judge me and react accordingly to that.

That's the thing in a nutshell. I don't mind that I'm a helpful or benevolent or kind being represented by my skin, because I go to the trouble to be altruistic, or in the worst case benevolently neutral. No problem, skin me as that.

If you are evil, a criminal or just a psychopath, you should be represented as such.

Things must be conveyed within the limitations of gameplay that we would decide through real human interaction. Those real thins cannot be represented realistically or functionally, so you need a gameplay mechanic to facilitate that.

You have to consider gameplay, and not tenuous arguments about "realism", which are baseless in my opinion, given the limitations of the mod and it's foundation engine.

Excellent point and very well put.

I totally agree.

Good should be portrayed as Good.

and Evil portrayed as Evil, via a skin.

As its the only game mechanic option available to us, that I can think of.

[callahan9119 7]

I have no problem with there being murderous' date=' horrible human players, they should just be bandits. That's the argument that gets lost in this.[/quote']

I don't think it's been lost per se. I'd like to think everybody who's sensible sees the fact that arbitrarily being assigned a skin is an unfair mechanic. For example, if you assigned a different skin for people who did excessive amounts of good deeds - a "white knight", for example - that person would become a target as well.

Bad behaviour shouldn't be punished, except when deemed an exploit, such as spawn camping. There are, however, much better solutions to this type of problem.

It isn't arbitrary, or it shouldn't be if properly implemented. That's the thing. You should be represented as what you are and how you behave, it is a game and that is functionally important, so gameplay mechanics such as that should be implemented. I have no problem with me "looking" like a "good guy" because that's how I am, how I behave. And I'll leave it up to the other survivors to judge me and react accordingly to that.

That's the thing in a nutshell. I don't mind that I'm a helpful or benevolent or kind being represented by my skin, because I go to the trouble to be altruistic, or in the worst case benevolently neutral. No problem, skin me as that.

If you are evil, a criminal or just a psychopath, you should be represented as such.

Things must be conveyed within the limitations of gameplay that we would decide through real human interaction. Those real thins cannot be represented realistically or functionally, so you need a gameplay mechanic to facilitate that.

You have to consider gameplay, and not tenuous arguments about "realism", which are baseless in my opinion, given the limitations of the mod and it's foundation engine.

Excellent point and very well put.

I totally agree.

Good should be portrayed as Good.

and Evil portrayed as Evil, via a skin.

As its the only game mechanic option available to us, that I can think of.

It's the only thing that prevents the player base from devolving into psychopathic behavior for it's own sake. Fundamentally this is a game, and people know it's a game, so they act like they are playing a game. Arguments about realism fail to meet this fact in the formation of their logic.

[joikd 25]

In a survival situation how would you have any idea what kind of person you are dealing with? Everyone's appearance would look like shit. You wouldn't know a damn thing. DayZ already portrays this lack of knowledge for the most part (once skins are not assigned). It's extremely dangerous coming into contact with a stranger simply because of the unknown. My god, it's like people want to make everything black and white, so they can deal. Struggle with grey instead.

[dystopeon 46]

yup, I just gank everyone on sight now, unless I've had some time to observe them unseen. interesting to see how this all plays out, however constantly scanning for everyone is becoming a chore :(

[callahan9119 7]

In a survival situation how would you have any idea what kind of person you are dealing with? Everyone's appearance would look like shit. You wouldn't know a damn thing. DayZ already portrays this lack of knowledge for the most part (once skins are not assigned). It's extremely dangerous coming into contact with a stranger simply because of the unknown. My god' date=' it's like people want to make everything black and white, so they can deal. Struggle with grey instead.

[/quote']

Umm no, you can interact with people in real life like you CANNOT in this game, you are supposing that we are all barely able to functionally communicate with others( which is one of our most basic human qualities) with the exactly the same face, who can only interact through faulty and functionally flawed communication mechanisms that are available in the game. This isn't real fucking life, it is a game, with all the limitations that come with it.

It's just more flawed "reality" arguements that neglect to factor in this is a game, not real life. You cannot communicate or interact as we would in real life. Gameplay requires some other mechanic to facilitate this.

The bandit skins were good, but flawed in that they punished defending yourself, they should have been improved, not removed.

[miqueloz 33]

Realistic communication would not make it any easier to identify who is a bandit and who is not.

[ATao 15]

This question is not about REALISM at all. It's about SPECIFIC TYPE OF GAMEPLAY.

One of the main DayZ's selling points is it's survival&exploration gameplay. Your enemy is not "bad guy" or "good guy" or whatever. You enemy is UNKNOWN. You don't know if you will find food if you go forward. You don't know whom you will encounter in the next village. You don't know sh*t untill you explore it and learn it the hard way. That's it!

If you are looking from this point of view it's all pretty simple. No specific skin should tell you if this guy is hostile or not. You should EXPLORE and LEARN it yourself without some kinky game mechanics doin it for you.

P.S.: can't wait for more skins to appear :blush: .

[crawnight 3]

This question is not about REALISM at all. It's about SPECIFIC TYPE OF GAMEPLAY.

One of the main DayZ's selling points is it's survival&exploration gameplay. Your enemy is not "bad guy" or "good guy" or whatever. You enemy is UNKNOWN. You don't know if you will find food if you go forward. You don't know whom you will encounter in the next village. You don't know sh*t untill you explore it and learn it the hard way. That's it!

If you are looking from this point of view it's all pretty simple. No specific skin should tell you if this guy is hostile or not. You should EXPLORE and LEARN it yourself without some kinky game mechanics doin it for you.

P.S.: can't wait for more skins to appear :blush: .

you got it, i think the same way. :cool:

[Zoop 343]

So people are complaining that the removal of bandit skins are going to make you unsure of whether someone is an enemy or not? So, what? If someone has a survivor skin you're not wary of him?

Let me put it this way. In my week and a half of playtime, I've been killed by a bandit once. I've been killed by fellow survivors probably around ten times.

I've been helped by people with bandit skins twice. Once when I was swarmed by zeds on the hill behind the northern hospital in cherno, a bandit came and helped me. Another time, I was at the Balota airfield, with low blood after fighting some zeds, and I climbed into the tower. I fainted on the steps, and a bandit who was hiding in the tower (and had probably watched the whole commotion), took a blood pack out of my backpack and applied it to me. Granted, he told me to leave and that if he saw me there again he would kill me, but he let me go nontheless.

[zalman 1]

no bandit skin, fine, but some kind of balancing factor is needed,