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-Gews-

DayZ ballistics have been ruined!

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New experimental update, new ballistics tweaks. Review! Won't bother typing it all again so:

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So, the ballistics are now closer than before, a couple are good to go, but many are still worse than they were in 0.62. A couple of the values are a little odd, as well. For example, the 7.62x54R is now set to 790 m/s. Why this odd 790 m/s, when Wikipedia (not always accurate but most people's first go-to) clearly says the PKM is "officially" 825 m/s, SVD is 830, and Mosin is 865?

Acting on a hunch, today I checked the website of Czech ammunition manufacturer Sellier & Bellot; I believe they have based their new ballistics on the figures given on S&B's website. Two problems with this:

Problem 1: low-quality data
Unfortunately (like many manufacturers) S&B figures are not particularly accurate themselves. You can tell by comparing to other reliable sources and finding large discrepancies for the same type of bullet. For example, they claim their .45 ACP has a ballistic coefficient of 0.093. Way too low. Every other manufacturer gives significantly higher. Nothing special about S&B bullets, simply a bad number. It's going to be more like 0.19. Another example of bad data: they claim their .223 55 grain FMJ has a ballistic coefficient of 0.300. Too high! Should be more like 0.24 (and their tables give an even higher result than 0.300! The ballistic coefficient figures S&B give sometimes do not match to the velocities given in their tables, either). This bad data is partly a result of insufficient testing at short range. Can't make truly accurate ballistics off it.

Problem 2: inappropriate loadings
It's weird for military SVDs and PKMs to be using 174 grain Sellier & Bellot civilian ammo. The largest source for 7.62x54R ammo is military, and military surplus. It just makes way more sense to model the properties of the standard military/surplus rounds than that of a certain S&B target ammo which uses a much heavier lead-core bullet. Coincidentally (don't place much importance on eye candy) this is what is shown on the 7.62x54R box—military steel core light ball—and not coincidentally, this is how it used to be—ballistics from 0.34 to 0.62 were accurate for standard steel core light ball. Another example would be the 5.56 ballistics set (or intended to be set—it's not correct) for 55-grain ammo. As mentioned above most all nations use 62-grain ammo since the 1980s as this is the NATO standard.

Edited by -Gews-
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I think the whole physics thing is broken... Items hanging in the air... Lada is exploding if you put a pack of seeds on the roof and get in... no throwable items anymore... I think with out working physics it would be difficulty to make balistic stuff but I don´t know... another think that I recognized is that I couldn´t shoot people that stand behind some leefes or bushes. Looked like my bullets hit the leefes and did not fly through. This is really shitty. I love the game I´ve played more than 1200h but some bugs and glitches are really anoying and the worse thing is that most of this bugs are there since many years.

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Well, if you're capable of pulling the numbers out of the game files, I'm sure you're capable of modding the correct real life numbers into a fictional game

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On 2/7/2019 at 2:43 AM, Evohl said:

I think the whole physics thing is broken... Items hanging in the air... Lada is exploding if you put a pack of seeds on the roof and get in... no throwable items anymore... I think with out working physics it would be difficulty to make balistic stuff but I don´t know... another think that I recognized is that I couldn´t shoot people that stand behind some leefes or bushes. Looked like my bullets hit the leefes and did not fly through. This is really shitty. I love the game I´ve played more than 1200h but some bugs and glitches are really anoying and the worse thing is that most of this bugs are there since many years.

It doesn't rely on those physics. Separate system from physics items.

9 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Well, if you're capable of pulling the numbers out of the game files, I'm sure you're capable of modding the correct real life numbers into a fictional game

I agree. Who is this OP to complain about stuff or give constructive criticism? If he doesn't like their numbers he should not say anything and make a mod for it, or alternatively, acquire funds and attempt to set up his own game studio.

Edited by -Gews-
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17 minutes ago, -Gews- said:

 

I agree. Who is this OP to complain about stuff or give constructive criticism? If he doesn't like their numbers he should not say anything and make a mod for it, or alternatively, acquire funds and attempt to set up his own game studio.

Call it what you want but ever since the SA came into fruition on these forums you've been clambering on about how it needs to be military realistic.  You want a military game, go play arma

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2 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Call it what you want but ever since the SA came into fruition on these forums you've been clambering on about how it needs to be military realistic.  You want a military game, go play arma

What is your issue with him wanting more authentic ballistic numbers; why is this rustling your jimmies?

I appreciate what Gews is doing. striving for more realism is a good thing. 
 

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20 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Well, if you're capable of pulling the numbers out of the game files, I'm sure you're capable of modding the correct real life numbers into a fictional game

Reading data is not the same as writing data. (Some parts of the hard-coded engineparts should be unchangeable for all but the developers .... otherwise there will soon be a Trumpet with the power of impact like an atomic bomb ... in a recoil of a fly at touchdown and Survivors with 10Giga Lifepoints and 10 ' 000 liters of blood .... you know what I mean).

What Gews is trying to do is to show the real character of a weapon so that the difference is not just in rendering the pixels. Only the true character makes the choice and the difference .... if these nuances are missing then each weapon is only an optical skin .... and that makes no difference to the product. Without these "subtleties" to consider it needs no other weapons right? DayZ is DayZ and should not be a Quake Arena. (I do not need any weapons actively in DayZ, but that's my point of view, and I want to understand others who WANT.)

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On 2/9/2019 at 7:12 AM, Guy Smiley said:

Well, if you're capable of pulling the numbers out of the game files, I'm sure you're capable of modding the correct real life numbers into a fictional game

22 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Call it what you want but ever since the SA came into fruition on these forums you've been clambering on about how it needs to be military realistic.  You want a military game, go play arma

Clearly it doesn't bother you whether it's realistic, semi-realistic or unrealistic, so I don't see why you'd be bothered either way. It seems the devs currently wish these numbers to be realistic, having gone to the effort to base them on ballistic tables from a Czech ammunition manufacturer. Unfortunately they didn't spot the instances where the manufacturer has provided incorrect numbers, so I'm pointing them out. I will probably make a separate thread re: 1.0150408 tweaks and changes.

I consider such dismissive responses as trolling. It's not even providing an argument against such changes. Adds nothing to the discussion.

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3 hours ago, -Gews- said:

Clearly it doesn't bother you whether it's realistic, semi-realistic or unrealistic, so I don't see why you'd be bothered either way. It seems the devs currently wish these numbers to be realistic, having gone to the effort to base them on ballistic tables from a Czech ammunition manufacturer. Unfortunately they didn't spot the instances where the manufacturer has provided incorrect numbers, so I'm pointing them out. I will probably make a separate thread re: 1.0150408 tweaks and changes.

I consider such dismissive responses as trolling. It's not even providing an argument against such changes. Adds nothing to the discussion.

Well clearly if the devs really gave a shit, they would have put the proper values into play in the first place and wouldn't need someone  to point it out for them.

 

To be truthful, you come off as whiny as condescending with your OP.

Edited by Guy Smiley

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1 hour ago, Guy Smiley said:

To be truthful, you come off as whiny as condescending with your OP.

Might wanna just stick to kicking that bubblegum.  Chewing ass doesn't look good on your frame...

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4 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

To be truthful, you come off as whiny as condescending with your OP.

The OP is whiny and condescending, but was reacting to some quite nonsensical changes.

4 hours ago, Guy Smiley said:

Well clearly if the devs really gave a shit, they would have put the proper values into play in the first place and wouldn't need someone  to point it out for them.

They may care, or may not. In any case, they don't have the time to spend, nor do they care to the extent, that some obsessives do. I'll always point out where it can be improved. Not sure why this annoys you, pretty common stuff in ARMA forums or other similar games.

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Keep it up Gews, your posts will also be read by the team. The fact that they do not answer is not a new thing, it is only important that they know that someone has investigated it and found errors / deviations. (maybe the values are also distorted by a new engine calculation and are so flawed ... everything is possible, if you do not know everything.)

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34 minutes ago, Thurman Merman said:

Why should ballistics be any different than the rest of the game features?

It's one of the things that made/makes DayZ unique - look at the DayZ inheritance = REALISTIC BALLISTICS..
The bullet trajectory is plotted in-game as if it comes out of the barrel of the gun - from the cartridge in the breech. This was a proud boast of ArmA 2 and of the DayZ Mod and was passed on to DayZ SA. - it is ONE thing that made DayZ (and in fact BI's development attitude) different from ALL other games involving FPS.
It was so  vaunted, that on this Forum several folk argued to include sniper computers as an in-game item. i.e; the militarily pocket hardware that takes into account the rotation of the earth when it is calculating your target aimpoint, as well as all the weapon, cartridge & wind and air-density & moisture parameters (ya know?) total ballistics  - There were & are players who took realistic weapon & ammo performance very seriously.
DayZ is set up so that realism is completely achievable for weapons performance. That function is deliberately built in to the engine. 
So why not use it to it's max, accurately imitating real world weapons and cartridges? = as  -Gews-  points out.  

Like, it ain't "point and click"   

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1 hour ago, pilgrim* said:

Like, it ain't "point and click"   

I was being pissy and sarcastic.  Ballistics, like much of current DayZ, has been ruined.

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DayZ's attempts at making true-to-life ballistics behavior is exemplary of this genre they have pioneered; along with the myriad other features that tend towards an authentic/realistic feeling simulation, rather than the dozen other games that do things with a much more surface-level feel.

The ballistics add value to the game in the form of a skill to be learned and the requirement that players pay attention to where they are, what they are shooting at, and the distance to and rate of lateral travel of their target in relation to the simulated time to target of the round being fired.
This is a good thing.  It adds depth to the game and makes it feel all the better when you have mastered this aspect of the game.

Furthermore, it creates the possibility of a very valuable endgame item.  They have added a night vision scope, which is nice (or not so nice, depending on which side of the lens you are standing).

So why not make the ballistics true to life to the best of their ability, or Gews' suggestions...  And then add a class of integrated ballistic calculator scopes.  Hell, go nuts and make a rangefinding reflex sight with either a range indicator for self-correction, or the ability to calibrate to your muzzle velocity for a floating correction bar.

Both of these things would easily double the value of any sniper rifle, increase the versatility of ARs, and make SMGs more viable for ranges at which most people would normally avoid using them.  The way this game handles ballistics creates the opportunity for really cool and useful things like this.  Why waste that opportunity?

Edited by emuthreat
grammar was bugging me
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do we have the latest ballistics, speed values off the config files?

Its not clear to me which are the correct values in the files

Edited by aux7

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