Inventory overhaul

[BeefBacon 1185]

 

ORIGINAL POST

The inventory system in DayZ is famously not great. It's a symptom of the grid-based system, a pen or a piece of paper is the same size as a can of beans. It's silly. I'm writing this with the (probably wrong) assumption that this is how it's always going to be - if somebody knows otherwise then feel free to chime in.

We know weight will be a factor, but the issue of limited slots persists - so here is my suggestion:

Do away with limited slots all together, and instead have weight and size values for items. 

All items that have inventory space (clothes, bags, etc) should have infinite inventory slots, but they should be assigned weight and size limits where weight is, obviously, the maximum weight of the combined items and size is the actual physical size of those items, regardless of weight. Storage items should have two bars that you fill up - when either bar is full you cannot place any more items in that storage. Physical capacity should be the main restriction, with weight having more of a soft cap (with a high hard cap that you'd be unlikely to reach unless you're some sort of pack mule). If you have a bag with a weight capacity of, say, 20kg then you should be able to carry 20kg without any problems. As you go over 20kg you start seeing major speed reductions and other debuffs until you hit the hard cap of, say, 40kg - by which point you'll suffering massive debuffs anyway. Physical space, as I said, should be much more straightforward. You can stuff as many items into storage as you can until there is physically no more space available. You could stuff half a dozen puffer jackets into a bag and still have a low carry weight, but reach your physical capacity - or you could put (for the sake of the demonstration) an apple-sized 40kg weight into your bag, meet the maximum weight but still have a ton of physical space remaining.

Some storage items should have a lot of physical storage but low weight capacity, and vice versa, and some should be fairly balanced. A small, sturdy bag might be better for carrying lots of, say, heavy ammo while a large flimsy bag might be better for storing a lot of clothes (for whatever reason.) Military storage should, obviously, have the best size-weight ratio. An improvised bag might be the same physical size as a taloon backpack, but its weight capacity should be significantly lower.

The durability of a storage item should affect its weight capacity, but not its size capacity.

This removes the silly Tetris minigame, it removes the need for limited item stacks (you can just stack items until you hit either the weight or size capacity instead of only being allowed to stack 6 rags or 40 rounds or whatever) and it means that very small items can actually take up less space without having to increase the resolution of the grid system.

I hope the idea is clear. I'll admit, I just sort of blurted it out - it's late and I didn't want to forget it. Keen to see what, if any, discussion comes as a result. I might neaten the wording up later on. Might even add pictures.

The current inventory system is extremely flawed because it is just a basic grid system. While I'm sure this system will evolve in some way (with the introduction of weight to items for example) I'd still like to put forward my own idea.

In short, do away with limited storage slots and instead assign size and weight values to items.

Storage items (clothes, backpacks, whatever) should have weight and size capacity limits where weight is, obviously, the weight the storage item can carry and size capacity refers to the volume of items it can carry. A quilted jacket, for example, should have a low weight but also be quite physically large. A car battery is relatively small, but extremely heavy. A pen is very small and very light. While storage capacity has a hard cap (you can only stuff so many items into a bag) weight has a soft cap, meaning you can exceed the weight limit (to an extent) but will suffer penalties as a result.

The animation below better highlights this. The jacket is large but light, so it fills up a lot of capacity but not much weight. The pen is extremely small and light, so it only really affects your storage capacity when you have a stack of 100 pens. The battery is quite small, but extremely heavy - so much so that it fills the taloon pack's weight capacity. Once a second one is introduced, the weight capacity is exceeded, as represented from the weight bar changing from white to red. The second animation shows the courier bag which has a slightly smaller size capacity but a much lower weight capacity. As such it can carry a quilted jacket, but it cannot carry a car battery even though the jacket is physically larger.

Backpacks should have pros and cons. Some should be physically small but capable of carrying considerable weight. Others should be quite large, but have a small weight capacity. Others, military packs in particular, should have a good balance between size and weight capacity.

Item condition should also affect weight capacity.

This system would remove the Tetris minigame, would more accurately represent the physical size of items without increasing the resolution of the grid system, would remove the need for limited item stacks and would diversify gear choices, with players needing to strike a balance between weight and size capacity.

Edited October 30, 2016 by BeefBacon

[Radibor78 26]

Sounds good to me. Volume and weight being the limiting factors. Also the status of the backpack could then easily effect the amount of items that can be stored. If e.g. a pristine backpack can hold up to 40 kg the same backpack in damaged condition might have a reduced limit of 20 kg or something. Same goes for clothing.

[scriptfactory 620]

They should just copy the Arma 3 inventory system and improve the interface. Also, durability shouldn't affect weight capacity. Once minimum durability is reached stuff should just start falling out of your bag.

[Arthur Dubrovka 376]

I HOPE its not the final version of inv system. I thought its a rough version and design, volume and weight will be implemented or? I think it has to wait till new char controller and new endurance system will be integrated.

Edit: I think, what you are describing, is the inventory system of Life is feudal. The only factors, which restricting the inventory, are size and weight. I like your idea! By the way and offtopic, because of basebuildig, there are some really good mechanics in this game.

Edited October 13, 2016 by imunone

[Radibor78 26]

21 minutes ago, scriptfactory said:

Also, durability shouldn't affect weight capacity. Once minimum durability is reached stuff should just start falling out of your bag.

But durability is in fact what limits the weight capacity. Once you bag is worn or damaged the material gets thinner, suture starts to fail and the heavier the weight inside the bag the more likely material and suture is gonna fail and items fall off or the whole bag falls apart.

[Arthur Dubrovka 376]

10 minutes ago, Radibor78 said:

But durability is in fact what limits the weight capacity. Once you bag is worn or damaged the material gets thinner, suture starts to fail and the heavier the weight inside the bag the more likely material and suture is gonna fail and items fall off or the whole bag falls apart.

THIS...I thought so often about it. The different stages of pristine to ruined have to impact the gameplay much more! And if your backpack is badly damaged youl will randomly loose stuff out of your backpack. At first small items like single rounds, canopener, supressors etc...

Edited October 13, 2016 by imunone

[BeefBacon 1185]

10 hours ago, scriptfactory said:

Once minimum durability is reached stuff should just start falling out of your bag.

I can just see that getting annoying, but I did consider it. I figured lower weight capacity is a good way to simulate that without actually losing items - you'll suffer some serious debuffs (what exactly those debuffs might be I'm not sure) so you'll want to get rid of items anyway. I could probably get along with losing items from a ruined backpack, however - it is ruined after all.

[Radibor78 26]

12 hours ago, BeefBacon said:

I can just see that getting annoying, but I did consider it. I figured lower weight capacity is a good way to simulate that without actually losing items - you'll suffer some serious debuffs (what exactly those debuffs might be I'm not sure) so you'll want to get rid of items anyway. I could probably get along with losing items from a ruined backpack, however - it is ruined after all.

That's what reality is... anoying. ;) But kidding aside, losing items might piss off many players so only the lowered weight capacity might be a way to avoid that, although if losing items only occurs with acutally ruined or maybe damaged backpacks and not at all with worn and better whereas weight capacity is reduced with every step it might not be that much of a deal. Especially if combined with e.g. the waterproof bags etc. when you can put your small items like ammo, can opener etc. in one of those, a medical pack, cooking pot etc. so it cannot fall off anymore as the small items are not directly in the backpack and the waterproof bag as a bigger item will not fall off.

[BeefBacon 1185]

On 14/10/2016 at 8:47 AM, Radibor78 said:

That's what reality is... anoying. ;) But kidding aside, losing items might piss off many players so only the lowered weight capacity might be a way to avoid that, although if losing items only occurs with acutally ruined or maybe damaged backpacks and not at all with worn and better whereas weight capacity is reduced with every step it might not be that much of a deal. Especially if combined with e.g. the waterproof bags etc. when you can put your small items like ammo, can opener etc. in one of those, a medical pack, cooking pot etc. so it cannot fall off anymore as the small items are not directly in the backpack and the waterproof bag as a bigger item will not fall off.

Ruined would be okay, I think. There'd need to be some sort of audio-visual feedback to tell you something had fallen out, though. And yeah, if items would actually fall out then smaller items should have a higher chance than larger items.

[Mr_Joe 38]

Personally I agree somewhat. I prefer the basic grid system,  I've always loved it, I just think it needs to be more responsive.  However I think the items themselves should still have weight, and the more weight you have the slower you travel/or stamina decreases faster (if and when they add stamina). -- At first I fully disagreed to your idea but then I re-read it and looked at your example, and I like it.  Having a grid system+a capacity system seems like the way to go, as well as allowing item stacks.

[MrAerospace 87]

I was posting about this ages ago, but this is definitely a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. Right now, I just feel like I'm playing tetris, and well, this seems to pop into my head each and every time.

 

[Troll_Hunter 54]

Carry excessive weight = increasing wear of your backpack, and affecting top speed and sprint stamina.

I think car wheels should only be able to be carried with a rope outside on a military backpack, or in hands, or with a rope attached worn like a backpack.

Truck wheels, I don't know, but they are much too big and heavy to be carried, maybe they should not be destructible / replaceable ?

I think that when the backpack status goes from worn to ruined the backpack should drop as a whole, with a sound of a strap tearing an dropping. The player would also notice the instant running speed increase.

Love your animation!

[kevo1414 62]

@BeefBacon Genius idea. Great animation and it's look easy and simple. I like it. I posted your idea on Reddit. I hope it's ok for you.

Edited November 16, 2016 by kevo1414

[BeefBacon 1185]

12 hours ago, kevo1414 said:

@BeefBacon Genius idea. Great animation and it's look easy and simple. I like it. I posted your idea on Reddit. I hope it's ok for you.

Yup, no problem. I don't really use Reddit myself, but I do browse from time to time. Certainly I'll take their suggestions into account, I've already thought of a couple of addendums I could add.

[MrAerospace 87]

In an ideal 3D system, there would only be one realistic limiting factor: Volume
Let's say you have a 20L bag. Does it matter whether you fill it with 20L of gold or 20L of feathers? They both take up the same amount of space, no matter their weight, so using weight as an item limitation is a poor design.

However, you'd likely destroy the bag trying to pick it up with 20L of gold in it. So, instead of the bag type and condition as a weight limit, I would propose that weight carried in excess of a certain value would increases the wear rate of the bag. To satisfy the original idea, that certain value and consequential rate of wear could vary between bags.

Which leads to the need for consequences at the point of failure: I don't like the idea of losing items out of the bag, because that's going to cause a lot of resentment from players. I would instead propose that the moment a bag wears out, one of the shoulder straps breaks, and the bag can no longer be carried in the backpack slot.

[exwoll 255]

4 hours ago, MrAerospace said:

In an ideal 3D system, there would only be one realistic limiting factor: Volume
Let's say you have a 20L bag. Does it matter whether you fill it with 20L of gold or 20L of feathers? They both take up the same amount of space, no matter their weight, so using weight as an item limitation is a poor design.

However, you'd likely destroy the bag trying to pick it up with 20L of gold in it. So, instead of the bag type and condition as a weight limit, I would propose that weight carried in excess of a certain value would increases the wear rate of the bag. To satisfy the original idea, that certain value and consequential rate of wear could vary between bags.

Which leads to the need for consequences at the point of failure: I don't like the idea of losing items out of the bag, because that's going to cause a lot of resentment from players. I would instead propose that the moment a bag wears out, one of the shoulder straps breaks, and the bag can no longer be carried in the backpack slot.

Weight isn't only a bag limitation, if fact I believe it should be more about the one that's carrying it. A person can't carry 20L vol. of gold, anything more than  a couple of kg should start affecting the speed, tiredness and even health factor.

[scriptfactory 620]

1 hour ago, exwoll said:

Weight isn't only a bag limitation, if fact I believe it should be more about the one that's carrying it. A person can't carry 20L vol. of gold, anything more than  a couple of kg should start affecting the speed, tiredness and even health factor.

Agreed. After reading Mr. Aerospace's suggestion I think weight should apply to players (e.g. speed, stamina, caloric burn rate, etc.) and volume should determine how much a bag can hold. For me this is logical and understandable.

[BeefBacon 1185]

15 hours ago, MrAerospace said:

In an ideal 3D system, there would only be one realistic limiting factor: Volume
Let's say you have a 20L bag. Does it matter whether you fill it with 20L of gold or 20L of feathers? They both take up the same amount of space, no matter their weight, so using weight as an item limitation is a poor design.

However, you'd likely destroy the bag trying to pick it up with 20L of gold in it. So, instead of the bag type and condition as a weight limit, I would propose that weight carried in excess of a certain value would increases the wear rate of the bag. To satisfy the original idea, that certain value and consequential rate of wear could vary between bags.

Which leads to the need for consequences at the point of failure: I don't like the idea of losing items out of the bag, because that's going to cause a lot of resentment from players. I would instead propose that the moment a bag wears out, one of the shoulder straps breaks, and the bag can no longer be carried in the backpack slot.

Yeah I'm not a fan of losing items, but it's worth discussing still. 

The hard weight limit isn't something that isn't supposed to ever be actually reached. By the time you're half way there you'll be suffering severe penalties (speed, tiredness, even health as exwoll said) so actually hitting the hard cap wouldn't really be feasible. It was also a UI consideration, since weight is represented by a bar it made sense for that bar to have an end point. I guess I don't really need to think about the UI, but it's a bit of fun and it helps to more clearly explain the idea. But yes, I think that's a good idea. The original idea of an additional weight capacity stemmed from the fact that the taloon pack and the improvised backpack can carry the same number of items, but it didn't make sense that they could carry the same weight given that one is manufactured from modern materials and made for comfort and the other is made out of an old sack and some sticks. So yeah, with your idea the improvised backpack would just wear out more quickly, and have a lower threshold for what constitutes 'overweight.'

Obviously this is a system that should apply to all clothing, to varying degrees. Given that clothing has a much lower volume capacity (and will therefore usually carry less weight) than backpacks, I don't expect that clothing would see the same wear and tear due to item weight that backpacks (and perhaps vests) would. Instead I expect that they (trousers and shoes especially) would be more affected by the environment. I'd like to see item maintenance be a major part of the survival aspect of DayZ.

As a side note, albeit a relevant one, it should become very clear when a backpack is about to break off and when it has broken off. Audio cues, symbols/text appearing on the UI, whatever. It also needs to be clear how quickly an item is degrading.

I think I might amend the original idea to include this new system. I won't do it right now, though. I might also do a new animation, make it a bit bigger and slightly redesign the UI to get rid of the hard cap.

11 hours ago, exwoll said:

Weight isn't only a bag limitation, if fact I believe it should be more about the one that's carrying it. A person can't carry 20L vol. of gold, anything more than  a couple of kg should start affecting the speed, tiredness and even health factor.

Player condition (health, soft skills) should also play a part. I'm not sure what, specifically. Perhaps lower speed/stamina penalties for being overweight.

 

Keep the ideas coming. Maybe a dev can chime in? As I think I said in my original post I imagine that there are already plans to change the inventory system in some way, but any kind of developer response on the subject would be great.

[Radibor78 26]

On 29.11.2016 at 10:42 AM, MrAerospace said:

Does it matter whether you fill it with 20L of gold or 20L of feathers?

Hmm, yes. 20 L of gold would be 386 kg. I think that would not just be a challenge for any backback material but also for a person to carry... 20 L feathers, not so much...

[0.64 Freerider 261]

I really like this,  by now rather old suggestion that is still very relevant. However I would like to see how you propose this was to be visualized, as that is an important factor, also for new players to understand what this is.