What is stopping the devs from upping the difficulty?

[sneakydude 480]

 

 

1 hour ago, bfisher said:

Do you just eat once or do you keep eating until "stuffed"?  One of the problems is you can stuff your face with half a dozen cans of beans and fruit and basically use your stomach as additional storage.  Once I get stuffed, I usually die of boredom before I need food again.  

Eating food and water runs are boring. PVP time again.

[Capo393 0]

On 17/07/2016 at 11:04 PM, Mookie (original) said:

 

Availability is the problem. Not need.

This is what I'm getting at. There is simply more food than 100 people need, let alone 60

5 hours ago, sneakydude said:

 

Eating food and water runs are boring. PVP time again.

Indeed, but if everyone had to look for food it would open up greater pvp and interaction possibilities.

Currently people just bushwack as there's no reason to go into a town if you're in full milgear and have 20 cans in your pack, why slow down your run for gear you don't need right?

[eno 1049]

Taking out all (most) canned food and making apples "out of season" would make things really interesting. Can only grow certain veggies... Hunt... Definitely not for everyone but it would definitely expand from the pvp universe or at least make it a little more diverse. 

Edited July 19, 2016 by eno

[Tigermonk 140]

On 15-7-2016 at 9:13 AM, Lexman61 said:

 I presume the developers of DayZ must find the difficult balance between a realistic engaging game and a real-life-apocalypse-simulator.

Too much of the first type and the result could end up being a run-and-gun FPS. Too much of the second would lead to a frustrating and excessively slow game pace (just think if they added toilet needs, personal hygiene, sleep requirements and other "realistic" features in order to make the game as real-life as possible).

Let's not exceed with too much "realism".

 

 

 

'Too much of the first type and the result could end up being a run-and-gun FPS.' <- guess what dayz today is? run-get gun-FPS-running simulator.. 

why? let me explain... with an example..

example:
you're standing in the MIDDLE of cherno.. with a mp-133 shotgun or RAK73.. you fire off 3 shots.. what happens? you wake up what? 10 zeds? MAAAYBE 15 in cherno 
NOW... try doing this.. when over 100 of those things roam the streets, twitchy as heck EVERY excess sound you produce.. 'triggers' them
so the first guy thats fully geared, that goes: HEY YOU!! STOP right there.. drop your shit..

*cuffs you* (you wiggle out as he searches through your pack) 
you run away, he shoots you.. 
guess what? you're dead.. but SO is he presumably.. why? because 200 zeds  just heard a dinner bell ring and flock towards the guy that's standing on one of the little aprtment squares in cherno.. 
3..2..1...he's dead.. 

^ congratulations.. dayz is no longer a 'run-gun-FPS simulator because the first knucklehead that pops off a round larger than a .22 in cherno or any other major city, get his head ripped off..
this also slows down the game pace gradually (running towards a mil base at 14 mph sprinting for 20 or more min.. is NO longer an option (HEY SHIT you've just created a bit of realism) 
It's not that HARD people.. it really isn't just a few braincells together and ditch the alcohol content to drown a cow.. you'll be fine :D 

[Tigermonk 140]

On 15-7-2016 at 6:21 PM, ebrim said:

I definitely agree that safe water is rather too abundant. Pathogen risk should be increased for both water pumps and ¨natural¨ sources. The only water that should be absolutely safe is water you have either boiled or chemically purified.

Food, well, there's just way way too much of it. I'm also thinking it may be nice to have a soft skill for foraging that means your chances of finding an apple or berries begins very very low or perhaps just increase the amount of time per attempt for low-skilled harvesters.

Zombies, I think we're getting there.

Predators are kinda freaking me out with the amount of time I spend solo in the woods... So that's probably a step in the right direction. :D

I definitely agree that safe water is rather too abundant. Pathogen risk should be increased for both water pumps and ¨natural¨ sources. The only water that should be absolutely safe is water you have either boiled or chemically purified.

^ this would mean that people either die from dehydration or hunger within minutes.. alright..
then please tell the devs that water purification tablets should be more common (oh wait their rare because its medical)

no really dude.. that's weird because why would a pump have risk of infection when you're healty.. most people don't know this but the chance of getting cholera from a pond when you're healthy is almost 0.. when you're not healthy? its about a 20-50% chance..
so that's all fine.. 
because most people, once they get cholera.. they die because they can't refill their hydration bar quick enough.. (thats about 90% of all players in the game)
our server doc. once saved someone from cholera... about 2.5 people worth of blood, 4 bags of saline and 4 full canteens.. (plus an additional 2-3 hours of real time)
mind you this was ONE person... 1... he survived.. we up until this day.. even the doc says he was a 'lucky bastard' 

so no man.. making waterpumps infection risks? that'll ruin the game for a LOT of players..
what they COULD do? fix that waterpump/apple tree bug (thats been in for what 3-4 patches?) 
so that sititng by a waterpump in the MIDDLE of a town will take you 5 min to refill if you don't have canteens/PET/watersatchels of any kind.

because what else are people going to drink? soda? a can of soda should be SO rare.. that if you FIND a pristine one, you're about to become religious.
so that's not an option to 'refill' your hydration now is it?

Edited July 19, 2016 by Tigermonk

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

9 hours ago, eno said:

Taking out all (most) canned food and making apples "out of season" would make things really interesting. Can only grow certain veggies... Hunt... Definitely not for everyone but it would definitely expand from the pvp universe or at least make it a little more diverse. 

 

I hope we're ever closer to the time when the devs will stop pander to the pvp folk. The brutal fact is, dayz is supposed to be a survival game, it is not one at the moment, and survival issues are precisely the ones called "boring" by some people here. Let's face it, a game, even sandbox like ours, cannot provide equal amounts of fun to those who want to be always strapped for resources and those who just want to have a shoot-out in Cherno. At the end of the day, we'll have to bid some not-so-sad farewell.

 

As much as I understand all the arguments for abundant food as it is right now, I still share the same concern with the OP - I get it that survival things need tweaking, what I don't get is why getting food is precisely as easy as running. Just make it so if you don't take care of your lunch, you won't get to the bright-green energized. What's the problem with that? But it's just me, I get it that the devs want to have it the way it is, so ok.

Personally, I love the scarcity of loot in 0.60. I got back to playing dayz only to practice my bow skills. I decided I wanted to master archery when I noticed (finally!) how scarce ammo is and how cleaned up sometimes the NWAF is. I still find ammo and AK guns, but I'm happy how hard it is to find any useful stuff and that most houses are actually empty. This is precisely a step in the direction I'm waiting for.

[sneakydude 480]

 

11 hours ago, eno said:

Taking out all (most) canned food and making apples "out of season" would make things really interesting. Can only grow certain veggies... Hunt... Definitely not for everyone but it would definitely expand from the pvp universe or at least make it a little more diverse. 

Did they ever fix the tainted meat? was a couple patches ago everything you killed made you sick.

[sneakydude 480]

2 hours ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

 

I hope we're ever closer to the time when the devs will stop pander to the pvp folk. The brutal fact is, dayz is supposed to be a survival game, it is not one at the moment, and survival issues are precisely the ones called "boring" by some people here. Let's face it, a game, even sandbox like ours, cannot provide equal amounts of fun to those who want to be always strapped for resources and those who just want to have a shoot-out in Cherno. At the end of the day, we'll have to bid some not-so-sad farewell.

 

As much as I understand all the arguments for abundant food as it is right now, I still share the same concern with the OP - I get it that survival things need tweaking, what I don't get is why getting food is precisely as easy as running. Just make it so if you don't take care of your lunch, you won't get to the bright-green energized. What's the problem with that? But it's just me, I get it that the devs want to have it the way it is, so ok.

Personally, I love the scarcity of loot in 0.60. I got back to playing dayz only to practice my bow skills. I decided I wanted to master archery when I noticed (finally!) how scarce ammo is and how cleaned up sometimes the NWAF is. I still find ammo and AK guns, but I'm happy how hard it is to find any useful stuff and that most houses are actually empty. This is precisely a step in the direction I'm waiting for.

What part of survival don't you feel dayz is?

Infected, gangs, thugs, and outhouses.... If you mean picking up a bow and arrow is survival, or becoming a trapper is the only method of survival well... Ill let someone else chime in.

[eno 1049]

59 minutes ago, sneakydude said:

 

Did they ever fix the tainted meat? was a couple patches ago everything you killed made you sick.

No it's all good now. I think cooked fish still says "raw" but it's easy to tell when it's cooked.

[sneakydude 480]

30 minutes ago, eno said:

No it's all good now. I think cooked fish still says "raw" but it's easy to tell when it's cooked.

Great, now that is worth while to go hunting again.

Thanks Eno

[ebrim 998]

7 hours ago, Tigermonk said:

I definitely agree that safe water is rather too abundant. Pathogen risk should be increased for both water pumps and ¨natural¨ sources. The only water that should be absolutely safe is water you have either boiled or chemically purified.

^ this would mean that people either die from dehydration or hunger within minutes.. alright..
then please tell the devs that water purification tablets should be more common (oh wait their rare because its medical)

no really dude.. that's weird because why would a pump have risk of infection when you're healty.. most people don't know this but the chance of getting cholera from a pond when you're healthy is almost 0.. when you're not healthy? its about a 20-50% chance..
so that's all fine.. 
because most people, once they get cholera.. they die because they can't refill their hydration bar quick enough.. (thats about 90% of all players in the game)
our server doc. once saved someone from cholera... about 2.5 people worth of blood, 4 bags of saline and 4 full canteens.. (plus an additional 2-3 hours of real time)
mind you this was ONE person... 1... he survived.. we up until this day.. even the doc says he was a 'lucky bastard' 

so no man.. making waterpumps infection risks? that'll ruin the game for a LOT of players..
what they COULD do? fix that waterpump/apple tree bug (thats been in for what 3-4 patches?) 
so that sititng by a waterpump in the MIDDLE of a town will take you 5 min to refill if you don't have canteens/PET/watersatchels of any kind.

because what else are people going to drink? soda? a can of soda should be SO rare.. that if you FIND a pristine one, you're about to become religious.
so that's not an option to 'refill' your hydration now is it?

I think, perhaps, I wasn't quite as clear I could have been:

1) I think all water except that which you purify should carry some non-zero risk but I don't think it has to be much greater than zero either. I also think there should be more risks than just cholera (I can come up with a small list from the top of my head). I'm not sure how you then determine that people will start dropping dead within minutes. Sometimes you have to drink not totally safe water to avoid dying. If people ignore water while they are dying from dehydration then they've earned that Darwin award.

2) Harvest/pump spam absolutely needs to be fixed.

3) Also people need to get past this idea that running around fully hydrated and energized is normal. It shouldn't be.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

6 hours ago, sneakydude said:

What part of survival don't you feel dayz is?

Infected, gangs, thugs, and outhouses.... If you mean picking up a bow and arrow is survival, or becoming a trapper is the only method of survival well... Ill let someone else chime in.

If you feel that dayz is survival and you greet the zeds with anything else than 'great, maybe this place hasn't been looted yet', then let me welcome you to dayz! I hear people are looking for you on the coast.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

1 hour ago, ebrim said:

I think, perhaps, I wasn't quite as clear I could have been:

1) I think all water except that which you purify should carry some non-zero risk but I don't think it has to be much greater than zero either. I also think there should be more risks than just cholera (I can come up with a small list from the top of my head). I'm not sure how you then determine that people will start dropping dead within minutes. Sometimes you have to drink not totally safe water to avoid dying. If people ignore water while they are dying from dehydration then they've earned that Darwin award.

2) Harvest/pump spam absolutely needs to be fixed.

3) Also people need to get past this idea that running around fully hydrated and energized is normal. It shouldn't be.

Word to 3). And the more we wait with it, the louder tantrums our Rambos will throw.

Also, at first I was 'meh' about all water sources holding non-zero chance of infection, but if it raised the need for antibiotics, I wouldn't say no. But first we need some big overhaul to the medical system, what we have right now is nothing but a placeholder.

What you're saying is right about one thing, the water purification tablets are not really needed in 99% situations.

And your idea could be as well implemented through shaving off some wells.

[Whyherro123 2283]

4 minutes ago, Kirov (DayZ) said:

Word to 3). And the more we wait with it, the louder tantrums our Rambos will throw.

Also, at first I was 'meh' about all water sources holding non-zero chance of infection, but if it raised the need for antibiotics, I wouldn't say no. But first we need some big overhaul to the medical system, what we have right now is nothing but a placeholder.

What you're saying is right about one thing, the water purification tablets are not really needed in 99% situations.

And your idea could be as well implemented through shaving off some wells.

I have always thought that the devs should remove around 90-95% of the wells in the game.

So long as safe, potable water is readily available, Day Z will never be a survival game. There is a well in almost every settlement, and even in the settlements that don't have wells, you are never more than 5 minutes (a truly trivial distance) from a well.

Drinking from "natural" water sources (ponds, streams, etc) should give you some sort of disease, hands down. Not "oh, maybe if you are low on health......." wimpy-washy shit. 

Apples and berries should be either harder to find, or give you diarrhea after eating a lot of them. Both contain a lot of water, but eating a large amount of them will cause you to get sick in the wilds with startling (and amusing, when it doesn't happen to you) frequency. In my survival class, I had a kid eat about 2 double-handfuls of fresh blueberries, and the resulting flood was described as "ass-piss".

[eno 1049]

5 hours ago, sneakydude said:

Great, now that is worth while to go hunting again.

Thanks Eno

Good luck out there. Unfortunately / fortunately (depending on your disposition) animals aren't exactly in great abundance but that adds a little fun to the whole thing. I don't think there's anything out there other than deer / cows. Chickens / rabbits etc as well but you don't really "hunt" those. 

[sneakydude 480]

51 minutes ago, eno said:

Good luck out there. Unfortunately / fortunately (depending on your disposition) animals aren't exactly in great abundance but that adds a little fun to the whole thing. I don't think there's anything out there other than deer / cows. Chickens / rabbits etc as well but you don't really "hunt" those. 

Yeah, i haven't seen a deer or cow in a while.

Maybe in the next few patches we get the hunting again. Maybe this time it actually works with the fireplaces, etc.

[BeefBacon 1185]

1 hour ago, Whyherro123 said:

I have always thought that the devs should remove around 90-95% of the wells in the game.

So long as safe, potable water is readily available, Day Z will never be a survival game. There is a well in almost every settlement, and even in the settlements that don't have wells, you are never more than 5 minutes (a truly trivial distance) from a well.

Drinking from "natural" water sources (ponds, streams, etc) should give you some sort of disease, hands down. Not "oh, maybe if you are low on health......." wimpy-washy shit. 

Apples and berries should be either harder to find, or give you diarrhea after eating a lot of them. Both contain a lot of water, but eating a large amount of them will cause you to get sick in the wilds with startling (and amusing, when it doesn't happen to you) frequency. In my survival class, I had a kid eat about 2 double-handfuls of fresh blueberries, and the resulting flood was described as "ass-piss".

I agree. They should either remove the majority of the wells, or make it so that wells spawn randomly. That is to say, you can't just go to a village because you know for certain there is a well there - it's random like police cars and heli crash sites. The spawns would have to be permanent, though, since it'd be weird going to a village that had a well 10 minutes ago which has now despawned.

Wells should be super valuable, and should serve as hotspots for player interactions. Put a well in some random village in the middle of nowhere which is the only reliable source of fresh water for miles around. Boom. Instant new NWAF. Previously unvisited locations would become valuable spots for a reason other than military loot.

As it stands you can find fresh water everywhere. Hydration may as well not be a thing. Boiling water to purify it should be a major component of the game. Water purification tablets should just be a portable water boiler, if you like, so you can just pop one of those in instead of having to set up a fire and get a pot and all that.

As a side note, it could be cool to allow us to build wells when basebuilding is a thing. Depending on the location of the well (I'm not sure how water tables work but I assume you'll have to dig pretty deep if you want to build a well on a hill) it could have a different yield/capacity. I saw a while back a video on how to build a well. You need a few meters of tube that you hammer into the ground (there was a way they got the dirt out, I don't recall how), a pipe to reach to the water and a pump. On the other hand maybe it'd be better if you had to take basic resources (such as water) into account when setting up your camp.

 

In regards to zombies and food, yeah. There'll be many more zombies, and I expect the stamina system will prevent you from just outrunning them forever. Hiding in buildings won't be an option because they'll be able to knock down doors. As such, finding pre-packaged food, and supplies in general, will become a lot more difficult. I expect we'll see an expansion of the hunting and foraging mechanics to compensate.

[ebrim 998]

4 hours ago, sneakydude said:

Yeah, i haven't seen a deer or cow in a while.

Maybe in the next few patches we get the hunting again. Maybe this time it actually works with the fireplaces, etc.

The last time I saw deer was on experimental about a week ago. There were about five of them all together running head-first infinitely into a fence in the wilds. I couldn't bring myself to kill them; it just felt wrong.

[Tigermonk 140]

15 hours ago, ebrim said:

I think, perhaps, I wasn't quite as clear I could have been:

1) I think all water except that which you purify should carry some non-zero risk but I don't think it has to be much greater than zero either. I also think there should be more risks than just cholera (I can come up with a small list from the top of my head). I'm not sure how you then determine that people will start dropping dead within minutes. Sometimes you have to drink not totally safe water to avoid dying. If people ignore water while they are dying from dehydration then they've earned that Darwin award.

2) Harvest/pump spam absolutely needs to be fixed.

3) Also people need to get past this idea that running around fully hydrated and energized is normal. It shouldn't be.

3) Also people need to get past this idea that running around fully hydrated and energized is normal. It shouldn't be.

^ is purely a dayz screw up again.. 

if you know a little bit about the human body and HOW much you need to be 'hydrated' throughout the day' (2/3 of a gallon or about 2/2.5L)
then factor in the 'realism' of dayz (yes this was sarcastic)
you're sprinting around (25-30 kmh) or about (15-18 mph) people's hearts would literally explode from pressure
not to mention the on average 75-125 pounds of kit (backpack/vest) at least!
oh and did I mention its about 90 F outside right now in dayz when the sun is out?

so you're burning through water (thus hydration) like mad.. 3L of water GONE within what? 15-20 min (overheating *which happens ALOT in the last patch) blows through 12 points of water/second

so yes.. people NEED insane amounts of water.. the stamina system will fix that endless running/sprinting SO it should also mend the blowing through water problem a bit..
but if that is not fixed.. dayz will always need at least 3Liters of water every 2 clicks (KM)

you're welcome

Edited July 20, 2016 by Tigermonk

[Tigermonk 140]

13 hours ago, Whyherro123 said:

I have always thought that the devs should remove around 90-95% of the wells in the game.

So long as safe, potable water is readily available, Day Z will never be a survival game. There is a well in almost every settlement, and even in the settlements that don't have wells, you are never more than 5 minutes (a truly trivial distance) from a well.

Drinking from "natural" water sources (ponds, streams, etc) should give you some sort of disease, hands down. Not "oh, maybe if you are low on health......." wimpy-washy shit. 

Apples and berries should be either harder to find, or give you diarrhea after eating a lot of them. Both contain a lot of water, but eating a large amount of them will cause you to get sick in the wilds with startling (and amusing, when it doesn't happen to you) frequency. In my survival class, I had a kid eat about 2 double-handfuls of fresh blueberries, and the resulting flood was described as "ass-piss".

'2 double-handfuls' <- MURICA MUCH?

most people from a civilized country call that 4 hands of berries.. you're NOT talking about burgers mate.. you really aren't..

greetings from civilization 

[ebrim 998]

We're mixing up our set conditions a bit. I'm laying out what will make the game more difficult in the long-term and not necessarily suggesting what should be changed in the next build. Untreated water should never be assumed to be safe but should be judged on the least bad alternative (I'm dehydrated and water-borne illness will kill me slower than no water so I'm going to slurp this pond-scum). Treating water isn't terribly difficult right now, my most common method in experimental involves a pot and a house stove or portable and you get about 3L if memory serves.

 Stamina system is necessary to bring some semblance of survival back to the game. Removing people's ability to travel very quickly, very cheaply, will do a lot to in effect make all goods more scarce without tweaking CLE at all (which will be done anyway).

[sneakydude 480]

Well first things first remove the spam features of the trees and the water wells.

Apples are too plenty now, water is plenty now. I had to test it out to see what people where talking about.

[Parazight 1599]

8 hours ago, Tigermonk said:

'2 double-handfuls' <- MURICA MUCH?

most people from a civilized country call that 4 hands of berries.. you're NOT talking about burgers mate.. you really aren't..

greetings from civilization 

Wait, did you just call all of the United States uncivilized because a guy used different terminology than what you're used to?

[eno 1049]

34 minutes ago, Parazight said:

Wait, did you just call all of the United States uncivilized because a guy used different terminology than what you're used to?

Yeah not sure what that contributed to anything. Though I'm now curious what nation bred that level of ignorance...

[sneakydude 480]

Yeah that made no sense. I have never heard it as 4 hands of berries before. Milk cows much? That's what it sounds like to me.

A couple handfuls of berries, or a couple of bunches.

Then again i do not go around picking berries all day either, Slang, terms whatever the case it doesn't matter everyone got the point.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=handful+of+berries&biw=1920&bih=940&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinisKB1ILOAhUCxoMKHR_YAfYQsAQIGw

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by sneakydude