Is it Possible for 3PP to NOT be Overpowered?

[Konfucious K 183]

I always maintained that the only true way to fix this issue is to separate 1st person and 3rd person entirely. Just have dedicated servers offering one type of camera. As the way it currently stands 1pp side has no advantages of 3pp while 3pp has all the advantages of both. But honestly, I doubt I'll play many 3pp servers once this game is polished. I always seek the most immersive and competitive experience available to me and there are too many immersion breakers in having drone cam.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Konfucious K

[Rags! 1966]

I agree with @Konfucious K . 

Once this game is polished...better player controller that's way less clunky and silly, optimization for FPS...I will gladly leave 3PP far, far behind me. Now, just to convince all my friends...

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

1PP is dead for a reason...its not attractive. I played 1PP for 6 months straight and 3PP is much more desirable. Work-arounds for the so-called exploits make me a better player.

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

1 hour ago, Weyland Yutani (DayZ) said:

1PP is dead for a reason...its not attractive. I played 1PP for 6 months straight and 3PP is much more desirable. Work-arounds for the so-called exploits make me a better player.

Ew.

I feel dirty just reading that.

Man, and I thought we were on the same page.... oh well.

[ebrim 998]

Ah, the age-old question. Really the best solution seems to be to somehow mitigate the tactical and awareness advantage that 3pp gives. There's a very real way in which 3pp, as it is, undermines many of the potential strengths of the game and yet removing it also has costs. Some sort of better 3pp really feels like the best path.

[pilgrim* 3513]

22 hours ago, emuthreat said:

.//..  This might actually be a very easy to implement improvement if the camera already has this capability.  ..//..

Camera dynamic adjustment takes place all the time in all games. In DayZ it takes place right now in 3p camera all the time. You have to understand this simple fact.

PROOF - In 3p view - run up and down a couple of flights of stairs and landings - you will not see the camera clip outside the building wall - why? -  because it adjusts to the building - AND it does not stay at an exact elevation OR constant distance behind the player, and it does NOT move and change direction at constant speed..  - it reacts to your position and the position of objects (all the time). This is already in the game. there is no new "map overlay" that needs placing, no addition or changes of any kind to object properties. There IS camera movement (including changing distance from the player) AND camera timing.. both together make the FEELING of the game, if you notice it or not.

There is simply some more extra thought needed -  and some minor-but-important positional improvement, a slightly more complex dynamic, to be added to what is already there... I explained the 3 camera parameters that alter as the player moves, now, in the game (i mean the relationship of the camera to the player CHANGES right now, in game.. check it out - Notice how it works.)  -  I explained that there are deliberate delays in the movements and changes in acceleration depending on the camera location (not only on the player's own speed and movement) so that the camera does not jerk or jump. These are already in place. Happens all the time and players hardly notice.

Problem for this Topic is, if they don't really notice it they really can't talk about it..  

You have to think in terms of the camera as an object with parameters - it has it's own life in the game -  its relationship to the player changes dynamically - it alters its relationship with the player now (today) in the game, and can go on doing exactly that with slight definite improvements. End result = much less peeking, zero "claustrophobia", much better game - for the 99% of players (at least) who ALWAYS play 3pp..

I'm realizing that this is - unfortunately - too strongly a technical discussion for many people to be interested at all - or to follow the fairly easy logic of HOW camera manipulations can change the game INVISIBLY, NOTICEABLY for the player, so he is hardly consciously aware that gamepay has improved - (until he finally notices its more fun)..
I tried to explain my simple starter ideas, simply.. but there are not many takers ready to think about how the gamaplay WORKS, I think..
It is the mechanics of how a game works (first) that give you the feeling of playing, not the other way around.  I assumed this topic would be easy to understand, also I underestimated how little 3pp players care.

 

I would like one or two people to pick up on this idea of camera movement related to the player - exactly what already takes place in the game (so zero big change) - and one or two people to realize that with some pooled ideas - and not too much thought - this 3pp could be improved to make a considerably better game experience for EVERYONE ..  Then I'll be cheerful again.   At the moment - .(after 2 or 3  pages of explanation I read comment like the last above, and ) .. what the hell... 

P

Edited April 21, 2016 by pilgrim*
xxx

[pilgrim* 3513]

4 hours ago, ebrim said:

. Some sort of better 3pp really feels like the best path.

I agree: So what do you suggest ebrim ?

[ebrim 998]

22 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

I agree: So what do you suggest ebrim ?

Honestly, I haven't the faintest idea. Luckily for me I'm not a dev.

[emuthreat 2837]

I thought I already mentioned the easy proof that adaptive camera movements were in the game.  Driving through bushes is the best example I've found, where the camera draws-in much closer to the player.  And we all know how useless 3pp is when tree-sitting.  The camera just needs to perch up on one shoulder or the other when the player is very close to cover.

[Rags! 1966]

2 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

I agree: So what do you suggest ebrim ?

[pilgrim* 3513]

2 hours ago, emuthreat said:

I thought I already mentioened the easy proof that adaptive camera movements were in the game.  Driving through bushes is th best example I've found, where the camera draws-in much closer to the player.  And we all know how useless 3pp is when tree-sitting.  The camera just needs to perch up on one shoulder or the other when the player is very close to cover.

Yes - "the camera just needs" - is a reference to part of only one of my three initial suggestions. It won't work alone, as I explained in that text, and a moment's thought will make this obvious. Your conception (as you state it) won't work at all as useful gameplay -  in my view (with respect). There are several parameters that must interact - for instance the direction you are facing when you are "close" to cover is very important. If you are leaning directly against a wall and looking down the length of the wall - the camera must NOT "close in to perch up on your shoulder"; It should not do that ( AND must not) as this would destroy the gameplay and I BELEIVE it will not prevent corner peeking. this is why my first proposals hav to be read carefully.

(or ..what the hell, I'm not forcing anyone to read anything..)   I thought the OP was interesting.

I won't go through the explanation again right now.  Anyone capable of - for instance - modding or (let's leave aside players familiar with game design) anyone who can draw 3d designs freehand on paper, and many other folk, will not find these ideas difficult at all.

Staircases:
The multiple axis and the constraints involved in the dynamic movement of a 3p camera following a player through the tight turns of a confined indoor staircase and doorways-  illustrates a range of existing camera capabilities. I mentioned this to make the situation clear to you.  Being blocked by a tree (as I noted way back, is the same simplistic camera action as you observe when driving through bushes). It is not a good example of how the camera works.. really, try the staircase and Notice HOW the camera viewpoint changes, as well as it's distance, angle, tracking speed, etc..  Players very often do not notice this key dynamic of the gameplay at all, in such a complex situation. So watcing what the 3p camera does in that situation is a good lead in to it's operation.

*

The point of this topic (in my view) is - really - to propose solutions that do not turn the massively popular 3pp Dayz  into a 1pp imitation, and to deal with the most obvious recurring beefs of 3pp players, with the intention of make 3pp play better. I proposed initial solutions to all the points raised except the 3p camera firing from the hip on screen target-indication mentioned by BeefBacon.  

BUT Most importantly - for ME -  I'm looking to find errors in my OWN logic, to see if my proposed system is operable - and I was hoping someone would be interested enough to point out things I've not considered,  that would/could mess up my suggestions.   These are simple first suggestions.. I was hoping for criticism.

xxPILGRIM

Edited April 21, 2016 by pilgrim*

[odin_lowe 3686]

Hmm. To make it "better" they just have to copy what they did in ArmA 3 video. Simple as that. (Amateur made. Wouldn't be very complicated for "real", paid programmers.)

But any "pvp" multiplayer game shouldn't have 3PP, at least if they want to be taken seriously. Competitive shooters out there are all in 1PP. (CS:GO, BF, etc.) And 3PP in pvp games should stay casual and colorful like they are.

Of course, the main problem with DayZ is that it was a mod for a Single Player game that had some multiplayer capabilities. Eventually, we might see the game turn into a FPS only, if it ever reaches respectable level.

Until then, the solution for a "better" 3PP should simply be the "fix" that was done in ArmA3.

No matter what you like more, 1PP or 3PP, the fact that in a PVP situation 3PP gets exploited should be obvious, to the DEVs at least, and seeing how the market for FPS video games that are multiplayer and PVP oriented is shouldn't even be "questioned" as it is right now.

DayZ really is a unique game.

[odin_lowe 3686]

1 hour ago, Rags! said:

Is your suggestion "Go play Resident Evil 4" ? Or make it like this game? 

We shouldn't compare single player games with competitive multiplayer pvp games really...

If you're simply suggesting to go play RE4, then it's a great suggestion, as it's a very good game.  ;)

[-Gews- 7443]

"Is it possible for 3PP not to be overpowered?" Yes... but the solutions would not be acceptable to most players. The options are restricted camera angles, raycasting plus occlusion, and swapping camera mode in certain situations. So... question is, who wants it "fixed"? Most people don't see a problem with the peeking. The server populations make this clear. They are used to the current camera and like it the way it is. Those who do care about peeking have the ultimate solution on 1PP servers. I recall at least as many complaints as there were neutral or positive comments about the minor 0.57 camera change, there's no way they will occlude models out of LOS or create a highly restricted over-the-shoulder camera. For many, by the time 3PP was "fixed" it might well feel , play or look "worse" to them than 1PP. So who is this supposed to please?

 

[pilgrim* 3513]

44 minutes ago, odin_lowe said:

Hmm. To make it "better" they just have to copy what they did in ArmA 3 video. Simple as that. (Amateur made. Wouldn't be very complicated for "real", paid programmers.)

But any "pvp" multiplayer game shouldn't have 3PP, at least if they want to be taken seriously. Competitive shooters out there are all in 1PP. (CS:GO, BF, etc.) And 3PP in pvp games should stay casual and colorful like they are.

Of course, the main problem with DayZ is that it was a mod for a Sin

gle Player game that had some multiplayer capabilities. Eventually, we might see the game turn into a FPS only, if it ever reaches respectable level.

Until then, the solution for a "better" 3PP should simply be the "fix" that was done in ArmA3.

No matter what you like more, 1PP or 3PP, the fact that in a PVP situation 3PP gets exploited should be obvious, to the DEVs at least, and seeing how the market for FPS video games that are multiplayer and PVP oriented is shouldn't even be "questioned" as it is right now.

DayZ really is a unique game.

YES - I guess the  bottom line "Basic Problem" here is that DayZ is a famous 3pp game with millions (?) of players.  DayZ 1pp is a lot less well- known minority game.
SO Taking 3pp out of DayZ would be like taking the <Fun> out of GTA and expecting most players to stay with it. IMO they wont !

For better or worse DayZ is a 3pp game as far as 99+% of the players are concerned. Always will be. I am not saying this is a good or bad thing at all, it is simply a statistic . That is how it happened, read the numbers.
In fact (paradox) most of the people who argue about making 3pp more realistic are the minority who enjoy 1pp. I have a strong impression most all 3pp players don't give a D*** if they can peek round corners, over cover, or off roofs or not. [edit: GEWS touched on the same point above, while I was writing this]

SO given that DayZ 3pp is THE GAME everyone plays every night (except a few hundred players?)  I think it would be worthwhile for the Devs to look into these FEW gameplay problems, and move the 3pp popular DayZ game a little more towards "realism" without freaking out all those masses of popular players - Camera viewpoints is one accessible way to do this that seems relatively cheap and efficient. And it is definitely "easy " to experiment with. This is why I plug this suggestion (it's my angle).. And YES DayZ is a great game.

Can you add a reference to the Arma 3 Video so other people on the topic can check it out; please. ??

thanx xxP

Edited April 21, 2016 by pilgrim*

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

On 4/20/2016 at 5:09 AM, pilgrim* said:

-snip-

I've got a Third Poss (goes with the second)  .. "variable 3p camera distance" depending on your facing distance from an object (hit box).  -snip-

This is what I had hoped for most.

It seems like the sensible option and has been proven to work well in other titles.

[emuthreat 2837]

@pilgrim* I think we are pretty-much in agreement on how it could be fixed.  You just like making the explanation unnecessarily fancy.  :P

Camera should move dynamically with player, and behave in a certain way when player is close to cover, which would help to take some of the imbalance out of PVP situations.  It should make combat more fair, work well, and not defeat the purpose by becoming so close that you may as well have just hit enter instead.  Yup. 

Did I miss anything?

Also, look on first page for the ARMA 3 video.  It's near the top, and shows enemies phasing in and out of existence.

[Rags! 1966]

2 hours ago, odin_lowe said:

Is your suggestion "Go play Resident Evil 4" ? Or make it like this game? 

We shouldn't compare single player games with competitive multiplayer pvp games really...

You can, here. Just because a game is single player doesn't mean that ideas or concepts in it would not work in multiplayer games. Let's say that in DayZ the 3PP view was this style of over the shoulder...

1) You can see your character in third person.
2) Your ability to see things that your hitbox cannot see is minimal.

 

[odin_lowe 3686]

4 hours ago, Rags! said:

You can, here. Just because a game is single player doesn't mean that ideas or concepts in it would not work in multiplayer games. Let's say that in DayZ the 3PP view was this style of over the shoulder...

1) You can see your character in third person.
2) Your ability to see things that your hitbox cannot see is minimal.

 

Now I understand, thanks. I agree. That's what I meant by "Or make it like this game?" : Use the same camera style as in Resident Evil 4. Sorry for bad english, it's not my native language.

I don't mind comparing single player to multiplayer games or their features, what I meant to say basically is I think games that are set in multiplayer, in a "realistic environment", that have players competing against other players to survive, armed with various weapons, shouldn't be in 3PP. They should stay in first person perspective, unless it's a fun for all, arcade style, fast pace shooter with bright colors. It's simply how I perceive an unforgivable, ruthless, amazing game like DayZ should be. I accept things I can't change, and we always have the possibility to play in 1PP, so it's no big deal really. 

Hmm, I think these threads have been around so much that finding interesting things to contribute to the discussion without creating flaming wars is tricky. 

Those who start these threads are pretty new to the forums, while most of the members that comment and share their thoughts are older members. I really like the various views from active community members.

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

5 hours ago, Rags! said:

You can, here. Just because a game is single player doesn't mean that ideas or concepts in it would not work in multiplayer games. Let's say that in DayZ the 3PP view was this style of over the shoulder...

1) You can see your character in third person.
2) Your ability to see things that your hitbox cannot see is minimal.

 

Wasn't there a demo of a very similar to RE4 camera angle when they were fiddling with it?

People didn't like it because the character model obscured things too much.

As much as I love Biohazard/Resident Evil I do believe this angle mostly only helps with looking over walls and doesn't solve corner peeking.

I wouldn't mind if DayZ had a similar mechanic for firing postures too.

Real marksman plant their feet when they fire.

Edited April 22, 2016 by ☣BioHaze☣

[Bludy 324]

i play only on 1pp servers, exception made by RP ones. i simply don't like how you can camp buildings with 3pp..it's a game of peacking i really dislike, to see something you definetly should put on the table your head.

the only way to improve 3pp is to lock the camera closer to the player and have it staying as close as possible to the los.

so proning on a roof will keep it extremely low,

on a corner it will go extremely close to the player's head,

if you free cam on your 6, it will stick to an angle similar to 1pp, not allowing you to see as efficiently as now,

will be blocked by walls if you are inside a building. now the drone goes out to make you see out of windows or downstairs..

said that, nobody will like the changes, because ppl play on 3pp to peak above walls and around corners, they are happy with campers and endless ridicolous stalemates, CQB turned in a drone battle and bush/tree hugging. devs will be hardly able to change that and piss the majority of the playerbase. which is completely fine, and if people like that more, it should stay ingame. it went so popular because it vents the nervous pressure you take on dayz in general and even more in 1pp, unexistent covers become a useful tool, turning a corner becomes a bigger advantage, because you can aim at your tail, while being able to watch your flank, being trapped in a building becomes holding an indestructible fortress. turns a lot of 50/50 situations in a cheesy kill, something people like.

until there will be 1pp whitelisted servers i won't even care..i just like it in a different way..

 

p.s.

hip firing is not that different..it happens even in 1pp, but without the advantage of more vision of the surrounding.

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by Bludy
p.s. about hip firing

[Rags! 1966]

2 hours ago, ☣BioHaze☣ said:

Wasn't there a demo of a very similar to RE4 camera angle when they were fiddling with it?

People didn't like it because the character model obscured things too much.

As much as I love Biohazard/Resident Evil I do believe this angle mostly only helps with looking over walls and doesn't solve corner peeking.

You only see, like...an inch over Leon's head. It wouldn't allow you to see over really anything. It certainly worked well enough in that game for us to shoot at things and still navigate environments well enough. In any event, I think people should feel damn lucky there's even a 3rd person camera in this game at all. Complaining about the position of the camera is like saying a free bag of gold is too heavy. 

 

3 hours ago, ☣BioHaze☣ said:

I wouldn't mind if DayZ had a similar mechanic for firing postures too.

Real marksman plant their feet when they fire.

As for planting feet, it's actually pretty easy to keep your irons up while moving side to side or forwards. It wouldn't shake and sway like it does in this game at all. I legitimately do not understand the reasoning behind making shooting while moving so incredibly unrealistic. Even moving at normal walking speed while keeping your sights on a target isn't difficult at all. Crouching, though, and doing that is more difficult, but I think it would be great for gameplay if you could do things like advance at a walking speed towards a corner or a door. I guess we'll see what the new player controller has in store. 

All it does is make combat...weird. It encourages hip firing instead of aiming while just...moving. If you have a rifle at home, try it out yourself. I think you might be legitimately surprised at how steady you can aim. Not standing still marksman levels, of course. But still entirely practical and effective. There definitely needs to be a bigger allowance on movement with a gun in your hand. 

[pilgrim* 3513]

 

This thread is not about 1pp DayZ :

1 hour ago, Bludy said:

i play only on 1pp servers ..//..
the only way to improve 3pp is to lock the camera closer to the player and have it staying as close as possible to the los.

You list all the situations you want to block the camera at the character's head, to make the 3pp game the same the 1pp game  - that is really not a smart proposal.

The 3pp DayZ game can be made better by using the camera MORE,  (not less)
I mean it will become more of a game that you would like if you played it.

1 hour ago, Bludy said:

 ..//.  piss the majority of the playerbase. which is completely fine, ..//..
until there will be 1pp whitelisted servers i won't even care..i just like it in a different way..
 

Hey - The 3pp DayZ players are the only reason DayZ SA still exists.
Without 3pp DayZ there would not be a forum, and no servers - probably not even any (empty) 1pp whitelisted servers (the 1pps are just about empty since the start)
You should check this out on the 1pp DayZ Thread, and talk to the other 1pp players over there.

*

Your point of view is that the million people who chose 3pp Dayz have joined the game because it is easy, and those big masses of players don't want it changed, so the Devs cant change anything. If the Devs try they will piss off all the 3pp players. I think that's what you are saying about 3pp?

I don't agree at all Bludy - I'm sure it is REALLY worth the Devs time to look at the 3pp DayZ game because totally everyone plays it (except a tiny handful). The devs can make the gameplay much better (not only animations and items and weapons) - also the stuff we are talking about on this Thread here -  And it will be a lot of  FUN to test those gameplay ideas on Experimental. The big focus is right on 3pp DayZ , because the players come to BI and Steam for 3pp DayZ, and the game development is based on it.. 3pp DayZ is what decides the future of DayZ SA.

If we are going to play 3pp let's make it really worth playing.  DayZ is a good game.
So let's get to it!

xxp

Edited April 22, 2016 by pilgrim*

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

3 hours ago, Rags! said:

You only see, like...an inch over Leon's head. It wouldn't allow you to see over really anything. It certainly worked well enough in that game for us to shoot at things and still navigate environments well enough. In any event, I think people should feel damn lucky there's even a 3rd person camera in this game at all. Complaining about the position of the camera is like saying a free bag of gold is too heavy. 

 

-snip-

Reading comprehension, you failed it.

I said that camera fixes looking OVER walls not AROUND them.

I think you switchified things.

[Bludy 324]

3 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

 

This thread is not about 1pp DayZ :

You list all the situations you want to block the camera at the character's head, to make the 3pp game the same the 1pp game  - that is really not a smart proposal.

The 3pp DayZ game can be made better by using the camera MORE,  (not less)
I mean it will become more of a game that you would like if you played it.

Hey - The 3pp DayZ players are the only reason DayZ SA still exists.
Without 3pp DayZ there would not be a forum, and no servers - probably not even any (empty) 1pp whitelisted servers (the 1pps are just about empty since the start)
You should check this out on the 1pp DayZ Thread, and talk to the other 1pp players over there.

*

Your point of view is that the million people who chose 3pp Dayz have joined the game because it is easy, and those big masses of players don't want it changed, so the Devs cant change anything. If the Devs try they will piss off all the 3pp players. I think that's what you are saying about 3pp?

I don't agree at all Bludy - I'm sure it is REALLY worth the Devs time to look at the 3pp DayZ game because totally everyone plays it (except a tiny handful). The devs can make the gameplay much better (not only animations and items and weapons) - also the stuff we are talking about on this Thread here -  And it will be a lot of  FUN to test those gameplay ideas on Experimental. The big focus is right on 3pp DayZ , because the players come to BI and Steam for 3pp DayZ, and the game development is based on it.. 3pp DayZ is what decides the future of DayZ SA.

If we are going to play 3pp let's make it really worth playing.  DayZ is a good game.
So let's get to it!

xxp

i think my phrase construction failed. i've not been clear. i'm sorry, but english is not my primary language.

what i meant is that, despite its issues, which i exposed maybe too harshly since i don't like it, 3pp NEEDS to stay ingame. that's what i meant it was fine..not pissing off 90% of the players. so yes, i think changing it too much or removing it would upset some players.

about your comment making 3pp=1pp with those adjustments, i don't know what to say..i'd be for fair fights and de-powering camping some buildings and peaking, it doesn't seem fair to me having that kind of advantages it gives now.

i don't think people are playing 3pp because it's easier in general, it's easier only on your nerves, because those drone maneuvers are at disposal of everyone.. what i say is that if you play there, you have to ''exploit'' the camera or die. for new players it's part of the learning curve, learn tools, weapons, status, ballistic, crafting, and camera.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Bludy