Question about barrels

[Buakaw 274]

Appreciating the dev replies, but I kinda have to agree with emu, I also made a similar observation. Had barrels on public and they haven't been touched for more than 3-4 weeks, still standing. Then again maybe the server was buggy - I remember cutting down a tree and 5 days later it was still cut down.

[pilgrim* 3513]

Hope this is not too far off topic - it is about the loot economy and storage. You all know that loot in storage or carried by the player is not counted by the server when it decides how many items to spawn.

 

Spoiler

 

so - an example:
If the server economy is set to 10 grenades, then grenades will spawn until there are "around" 10 in play, and no more will spawn.
When a grenade despawns (so there are only nine in play) somewhere on the map, after a while, another grenade will spawn so there are always around 10 in play.
BUT if I put the 10 grenades in my backpack or in a tent, they are not counted as being in play, so pretty soon another 10 will spawn on the map to keep the set number around constant.

Now there are 20 grenades in play - 10 are spawned on the map, 10 are in my backpack.

So when we say "loot economy" this is not an economy in the true sense of the word (supply and demand). It doesnt matter how many players are in-game, the same number of grenades will be on the map.. it doesnt matter how many are picked up - every player could have 20 grenades in their pockets and 10 grenades would still be spawned in play on the map.

So there is no scarcity.

IF I had a grenade in my backpack and it was counted in the economy - so only 9 grenades would spawn on the map.. then this would be a true economy of supply and demand. But DayZ does not work like this.

IF no more grenades spawned because I had all the grenades in my backpack, then players would have to look for the dude who had the monopoly on grenades. That would be "an economy".

THEN when I logged out with my 10 grenades - my grenades would not be in play, so another 10 grenades would spawn on the map.
IF I planted a tent and imported a bunch of grenades, then no grenades would spawn on the map, because the max number of in-play grenades would be in my tent.  

So what we have ATM is not an economy. It is effectively a spawn rate - because 50/50 players can all have 10 grenades each if they wait long enough. ie - no scarcity. Just a waiting list.

This system encourages stockpiling by 100% - there is a constant spawn number for the item, and the more you stockpile the more the same number go on spawning.

And stockpiling makes the whole rest of the game totally easy, no other game-actions have any point - death is not a problem, starvation is not a threat, gear and guns are not in short supply, ammo is no problem.
As long as you stockpile - and you can stockpile forever.
So there is nothing to do in DayZ except stockpile - and PvP - No other actions make sense.

 

just saying

 

 

Edited March 18, 2016 by pilgrim*

[Whyherro123 2283]

1 hour ago, pilgrim* said:

Hope this is not too far off topic - it is about the loot economy and storage. You all know that loot in storage or carried by the player is not counted by the server when it decides how many items to spawn.

 

Hidden Content

 

 

Disappointing. There goes Day Z

[Buakaw 274]

6 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

Hope this is not too far off topic - it is about the loot economy and storage. You all know that loot in storage or carried by the player is not counted by the server when it decides how many items to spawn.

 

Hidden Content

 

Ehm... you would prefer if someone could just grab all the grenades of the server, stash them away and prevent everyone else from getting grenades?

5 hours ago, Whyherro123 said:

 

Disappointing. There goes Day Z

Maybe it would be healthier for you to move on and let the game go for a while. And this forum.

[Whyherro123 2283]

3 hours ago, Buakaw said:

Ehm... you would prefer if someone could just grab all the grenades of the server, stash them away and prevent everyone else from getting grenades?

Maybe it would be healthier for you to move on and let the game go for a while. And this forum.

No, I would prefer it if there was 10 grenades on a server, and that was it. They get used up, and they respawn. They get stashed somewhere, and you would actually have to go find them. You know, play the goddamn game? Not hop spawns until you get loaded out.

Oh, and good thing I don't have to listen to you. Until I break a forum rule, I can post whatever I like. Don't like my opinions about where the game is going? Block me, or ignore my posts.

[pilgrim* 3513]

On 17/03/2016 at 0:39 AM, Buakaw said:

Ehm... you would prefer if someone could just grab all the grenades of the server, stash them away and prevent everyone else from getting grenades?

Yes because that would mean the grenades were stashed in a tent on the server.
This is the same as players grabbing all the vehicles and hiding them away. We play that way right now.

I guess you KNOW Buakaw - being well informed on the game - that the absolute minimum number of items on a server for it to be "playable" is (Dev statement) 20000.
So how many tents would you need on that server to stash away ALL the loot until no more loot spawned? Do the math dude. With a normal spread of players trying to grab loot, that would be at least 500 tents with 40 items stashed in each one - and Buakaw, you couldn't find any of them ?

[I don't understand why you say <<Maybe it would be healthier for you to move on and let the game go for a while. And this forum.>> Is that 100% off topic, or you're covering for not following the discussion on scarcity for the last 2 years? There's has been a lot about it. Read it, and then make a contribution when you are up to speed]

Rare Items in DayZ

Spoiler

 

Folk talked a lot about scarcity - if there was only one Scarce Gun on the server, and a player was already carrying it.. that would be scarcity.
When the guy logs out, the gun is not in play, so another Scarce Gun spawns - so players could still collect gear, just VERY MUCH not so fast..  OK?
If the Scarce Gun is in a tent,you have to find it.

ATM - If someone grabs the Scarce Gun when it spawns, another one spawns right after that, and in a while everyone has the Scarce Gun.
Hell, every player will eventually have five or ten of them. As many as they can be bothered to collect.
That is not scarcity.

ATM - When you have a stash it doesn't matter at all if you are killed, you respawn and run to gear up at your tents.
Getting killed in DayZ doesn't matter ? wow!  - that is a big change - only your tents matter.
This makes DayZ into a collector/PvP game = you keep getting killed (but who cares) and you keep collecting more stuff.

I don't see any youtube vids about people finding a rare gun or rare kit, i just see a WHOLE BUNCH of vids of people with plenty of kit running around interacting and PvPing.

Hey - this used to be a zombie-and-survival game? Now it's decided to be a collecting and base-building game?
IMO scarcity would be great in DayZ.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by pilgrim*
same text - less space used

[Buakaw 274]

So we can have some griefers run into the server right after it wiped, collect all items of X sort and then hide them or worse, logout with them? Sounds extremely toxic and anti-fun to me. It's probably the worst idea I have ever heard.

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You know, play the goddamn game? Not hop spawns

 

Also I already do (1st person private hive). As opposed to you I guess.

Quote

Until I break a forum rule, I can post whatever I like.

No doubt, that is what freedom of speech implies. The question is just - why the pointless negativity?

Quote

ATM - If someone grabs the Scarce Gun when it spawns, another one spawns right after that, and in a while everyone has the Scarce Gun.
Hell, every player will eventually have five or ten of them. As many as they can be bothered to collect.
That is not scarcity.

There are plenty of scarce things that are hard to find and desireable. Want me to list? Okay, sure. All guns from helicopters. Smersh vests are ultra rare. Boar pelts are somewhat rare. Ghillies are super ultra rare. M65 jackets are rare. Swords. Knight helmets. Nettings in general. Drummags. Silencers. 5.56 ammo. .308 ammo. Tires are rare - at least the ones that you need for your car, seemingly. Scarcity is a complicated topic. I don't want scarcity if it results in monotoneous, dull gameplay, that's for sure. There needs to be a balance. Removing all canned food from the loot table or having X item only spawn a couple of times isn't a solution to anything really.

Quote

ATM - When you have a stash it doesn't matter at all if you are killed, you respawn and run to gear up at your tents.
Getting killed in DayZ doesn't matter ? wow!  - that is a big change - only your tents matter.
This makes DayZ into a collector/PvP game = you keep getting killed (but who cares) and you keep collecting more stuff.

Player choice.. also: what goes around, comes around, right? I have shit stashed and still get an adrenaline rush when I get shot at.

Besides I dare you to get a camp going on a populated private hive.. I bet you are one of them peeps hiding their shit on a low pop public. Well guess what, on private servers your camps usually won't last very long unless glitched or hidden super well and barrel, protector case and ammo box spawns are depleted after like a week within wipe if not way faster. That dynamic goes out of the window on public.

In short, the problem is with you. Noone forces you to play like that. And most of those problems are fixed on a private. Hiding shit on a private for long is hard - and that is with a "severe" lack of vehicles and 50 pop max. Wait till that gets fixed..  then I'll say: good luck to having a stash or camp. :)

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I don't see any youtube vids about people finding a rare gun or rare kit

Maybe because it isn't particularly exiting to watch someone find an item? But there are a couple of videos of that out there.

Quote

, i just see a WHOLE BUNCH of vids of people with plenty of kit running around interacting and PvPing.

Because that is all there is to do right now, essentially. Lack of features is what you signed up for in an EA title tho, isn't it?

Quote

Hey - this used to be a zombie-and-survival game? Now it's decided to be a collecting and base-building game?

First of all, the game is what you make it to be. If you decide to sink a massive amount of time into it and do just that, then yes, that is what it is. See above.

More precisely tho, the game is unfinished and in alpha stage. I think you are overanalyzing honestly, but can't really blame you for it.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Buakaw

[Buakaw 274]

A bit more on topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/4b1yod/psa_beware_your_base_despawning/

So yeah. Maybe there are some unresolved issues in that regard.

[pilgrim* 3513]

1 hour ago, Buakaw said:

So we can have some griefers run into the server right after it wiped, collect all items of X sort and then hide them or worse, logout with them? Sounds extremely toxic and anti-fun to me. It's probably the worst idea I have ever heard.

...etc...

Dear sweet Buakaw - You don't understand what "scarce" means, you didn't read my post very carefully- but that's your right - and you got your ideas mixed up.

The idea of including player-owned-loot in the total loot-in-play calculation is a game balancing action - it's no big deal
It makes for more committed and less predictable gameplay.
Which is what I want.

xx pilgrim

[Buakaw 274]

50 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

Dear sweet Buakaw - You don't understand what "scarce" means, you didn't read my post very carefully- but that's your right - and you got your ideas mixed up.

The idea of including player-owned-loot in the total loot-in-play calculation is a game balancing action - it's no big deal
It makes for more committed and less predictable gameplay.
Which is what I want.

xx pilgrim

I don't have any ideas mixed up and I understand perfectly well what scarce means. Comparing items with vehicles doesn't help your cause. You want to search for X items in player tents, fine, I don't and I'd wager most other people don't, either. We don't need a "search woods" simulator. It is simply not a good idea to limit "essential" loot (I imagine you want guns to be this way...) to whoever gets it first. In the case of vehicles and containers it does, because they are neither essential nor can and should they exist in larger quantities, plus they are persistent, so they eventually get passed on to other players.

Quote

The idea of including player-owned-loot in the total loot-in-play calculation is a game balancing action - it's no big deal

Empty phrase. Give an example of how, say, having only 20 Aks spawn across chernarus and including tents and player inventories (which can be logged out aka safe stashed) would be a good idea. There is people that loot up and then never log back in. There is people that have 2ndary accounts to stash loot. There is people that would grief by glitching tents and barrels away with rare loot. Like - waht do you actually want to make scarce that isn't actually scarce already?

An SVD or FAL can take days to find and that is with the current helicrash respawn timer which respawns helis 8 times as much as intended. How is that not scarce? How would making an SVD any rarer make the gameplay any better whatsoever?

Edited March 19, 2016 by Buakaw

[pilgrim* 3513]

1 hour ago, Buakaw said:

I don't have any ideas mixed up

Buakaw -  a player who is logged out is not in the game.
I kind of hoped you'd work that out for yourself.

Also, for instance - how many AKMs spawn on a server in total?  Do you know the set number?
So how long would it take the "first griefer to log in" to collect all the AKMs ?
.. hmmm ..
(nope - I'm just coughing I aint laughing)

*

The idea of including player-owned-loot in the total loot-in-play calculation is a game balancing action - it's no big deal.

 

[Buakaw 274]

16 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

gibberish

 In case you are done making a fool out of yourself, answer the questions.

What do you actually want to make scarce that isn't actually scarce already? (food doesn't count - it is already on the to do list of the developers.)

How would making, say, an SVD any rarer make the gameplay any better whatsoever?

 

[emuthreat 2837]

@Bukaw

Who, besides you, was actually proposing that SVDs be made to be more rare?  I don't think that items in player-controlled storage such as tents and barrels are counted towards the server's loot economy; and I have never heard anything that would suggest that this is an arrangement that the CLE tweaks are intended to change.  Everything except for persistent storage containers are considered to be not in play, as far as CLE spawn targets are concerned.  The reason that there is an 'in-play' count, and related spawn restriction limit for tents and barrels on each server, is because an infinite number of these will severely impact server performance.

This seems like a non-issue to me.  If I want to hoover up half the tents and barrels on  a server, and stuff them with grenades, boar pelts, and rare firearms, this will not affect the ability of anyone to find those things as they continue to spawn; though tents and barrels will spawn less frequently, proportional to the number deployed on the server.  As you may already know on private servers, if there is a lack of freshly spawning storage containers, you will have to either grid the map for the ones that other players have taken and deployed, or simply do without.  If that becomes inordinately difficult, then it signals that some balancing is in order; which can be done on the fly, by adjusting the CLE requirements for the maximum and target numbers of each item to be spawned.

I don't know of anything from this recent argument, that really warrants any concern or strife.

Edited March 20, 2016 by emuthreat

[pilgrim* 3513]

Yes - stashed and carried loot is not counted in the calculation of total loot on server
as a result, after a month of play on any server, the total number of "rare" items stashed will be large
And always gets larger.
Especially guns - when a tent is found the "rare" guns are stolen, when a player is killed his "rare" gun is taken
So "rare" guns always spawn faster than they despawn.

The result is eventually a big overdose of "rare" loot stashed on the server
the number of "rare" items in play keeps going up. Nothing else can happen.
Very few guns despawn.

I think this is the real reason many people are getting bored with DayZ at the moment.
Maybe they just don't see it.
Most of the regular players have tents loaded with rare gear and common gear, so gear is not important to them.
There is not much point in looting, nothing is rare if you already have 2 or 3 of them, right?

Many players are worn-out with having so much gear and  they are waiting for the big server reset so they can start again.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by pilgrim*
Read before you Rant

[Buakaw 274]

9 hours ago, emuthreat said:

@Bukaw

Who, besides you, was actually proposing that SVDs be made to be more rare?  I don't think that items in player-controlled storage such as tents and barrels are counted towards the server's loot economy; and I have never heard anything that would suggest that this is an arrangement that the CLE tweaks are intended to change.  Everything except for persistent storage containers are considered to be not in play, as far as CLE spawn targets are concerned.  The reason that there is an 'in-play' count, and related spawn restriction limit for tents and barrels on each server, is because an infinite number of these will severely impact server performance.

This seems like a non-issue to me.  If I want to hoover up half the tents and barrels on  a server, and stuff them with grenades, boar pelts, and rare firearms, this will not affect the ability of anyone to find those things as they continue to spawn; though tents and barrels will spawn less frequently, proportional to the number deployed on the server.  As you may already know on private servers, if there is a lack of freshly spawning storage containers, you will have to either grid the map for the ones that other players have taken and deployed, or simply do without.  If that becomes inordinately difficult, then it signals that some balancing is in order; which can be done on the fly, by adjusting the CLE requirements for the maximum and target numbers of each item to be spawned.

I don't know of anything from this recent argument, that really warrants any concern or strife.

I know all of that. pilgrim doesn't want it to be that way. He wants it to be like this: you search a dozen helicopters, realize X rare firearm stopped spawning, and now have to search a 220km² map for it. Sounds like epic fun, am I right? Does anyone else here like that idea? Wait till helicopter spawns are fixed to 4h cycles again, their respective guns will be quite rare.

In a moderated whitelist private hive where duping actually gets punished, things look much much different than they do on pub...most people can hardly maintain an AUG there.

The reasons pilgrim lists as to why people supposedly get bored... well guess what, the duping coastal warfare pvp that is public hives does get boring eventually, and it continues to do so every patch, the main reason come back for patches is for new content/ guns /desync improvements. The main meta of coastal dupe warfare (which the majority of players seemingly participates in) will not change until the major duping problems get resolved. It's okay tho, that is what EA is all about.

3 hours ago, pilgrim* said:

public hive problems etc etc

Most of the regular players have tents loaded with rare gear and common gear, so gear is not important to them.

There is not much point in looting, nothing is rare if you already have 2 or 3 of them, right?

Guess what: most of the problems you mentioned do not exist on popular private servers, including players bored of having too much loot. Even on public, it is not a problem. Players haord because they can, want to and cuz there isn't much else to do. It is much less of a problem than you make it out to be, so there is no need trying to fix it. Maybe try to think more in long-terms, my dear sweet pilgrim. Because in the long run, these things will get evened out automatically, but it's hard to do when not even half of the planned features are readily in yet.

[sneakydude 480]

This is why hunting down supplies, raiding etc... is important. Barrel hunting, killing off people to steal wares you will have to do sometime over you "petty existence" Otherwise you join a server and all of the barrels etc.. will be owned by 1 hoarder.

[pilgrim* 3513]

On 20/03/2016 at 3:02 PM, Buakaw said:

... Buakaw .....

Of course the parameters of the 'economy' influence gameplay - private/public has nothing to do with this.
[end of my off-topic remark, see ya around sexy]

 

Spoiler

 

sorry I don't understand your argument. I can't find sense in it:
- you say on your private hive stashes are real easy to find: "on private servers your camps won't last very long"
- but you say you don't want a "search woods" simulator
- and you think (mistakenly) that people who log out reduce the loot left on the server
-  then you say "players hoard because they can ... cuz there isn't much else to do."

OK so you state there isn't much else to do except hoard.
But you also say "rare" loot is almost too scarce to find. So how can you hoard it?

- you say that on your private hive "most people can hardly maintain an AUG."
So why is that? Do you throw AUGs in the sea every time one spawns, do they not spawn regularly? Is something wrong with your server? - they have been spawning now at a normal rate, non stop, for a few months. So what happened to them all on your private server? Do you destroy them as fast as you can? Do you know how many AUGs have spawned on your server in the last few months? And you know another AUG won't spawn until one is picked up, so where are all those dozens of picked-up AUGs?

Maybe you mean you can't find ammo for an AUG? I don't see what you are getting at.

OK

Myself, I don't use tents, I live out of a backpack. Your guesses about my play-style are wrong and not relevant.
So to say:
"pilgrim doesnt want it that way"
"I bet you are one of them peeps hiding their shit on a low pop public"
"gibberish"
"making a fool of yourself"
"the problem is with you"

 .. those comments don't address the discussion.
I am not who you think. Feel free to a fantasize about me if you like - it is you right as an adult (we are consenting adults?).

I made one simple observation. I noticed how the total items in play must build up under the current 'economy':
- particularly because key item spawn is independent of the real number of item on the server (because player-owned items are not counted)
- and as key items become more numerous they must be stashed more than used (otherwise there could be no stockpiling)
- noting that key items are selected and saved when captured from player-ownership (so predominately not destroyed)
= A significant build up of numbers of key items accessible to players (meaning "available in play") on any server, public or private.

and I related this obvious gameplay function to the "scarcity" concept. Of course this phenomena is game-changing.

I made a comment about it - off topic - in case anyone was interested.
That's all. End of my minor off-topic observation, I won't reply again restating the obvious. Please Read before you Rant.

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by pilgrim*

[Mf_MrMike1981 1]

Since its a private Hive, spend a few hours one day , and run around looking for barrells in the woods, and low traffic areas...if you find one, then you might find some gear as well :) 

[emuthreat 2837]

Sounds like you two "dear sweet" adversaries should kiss and make-up already.

[IMT 3190]

So I finally found a barrel yesterday, thank god! Got it in a nasty way though. After checking all those sheds, roaming the woods in the east, Tatanko gave the tip to roam around towns, so I did. I searched around the woods near some coastal towns but no luck. When searching I saw a player. And you are never going to guess what this player had in his/her hands when I took a closer look, that's right a freaking barrel! As I restricted my characters to have certain things I only had a bow so I decided to stalk him, I was determined to get this barrel. While he had no idea someone was lurking in the shadows stalking him, he had some luck. Suddenly the server thought it was a good idea to restart, my first thoughts were there goes my barrel.

But luck has it when I logged back in he was standing in the field a few meters away from me. I didn't hesitate one moment, dropped my tent and took my axe out. I ran to him and hit him with the axe in the back of the head. He went down in one blow as if I hit his nerve system. Now the barrel was mine, all those long hours payed off. Of course because I'm not a douchebag I apologized, no idea if he could hear me or if he was even at his computer.

Took the barrel up north as fast as I could where DayZ screwed me again. I put one of my pelts and some garden lime in the barrel and clicked "Tan pelts". Now obviously you don't watch the time each minute while playing but at that time the server restarted again. Now I can't use my barrel anymore. It doesn't have the open lid option anymore. I think God is punishing me for killing an innocent person for his barrel.

Any solution to this problem?

Edited March 21, 2016 by IMT

[emuthreat 2837]

3 hours ago, IMT said:

 

Took the barrel up north as fast as I could where DayZ screwed me again. I put one of my pelts and some garden lime in the barrel and clicked "Tan pelts". Now obviously you don't watch the time each minute while playing but at that time the server restarted again. Now I can't use my barrel anymore. It doesn't have the open lid option anymore. I think God is punishing me for killing an innocent person for his barrel.

Any solution to this problem?

Go find a fox.  Chase it until the path-finding Gods give you a geometry trap.  Force-feed the fox a can of sardines, then gently kill it with an improvised *knoife*, and repent.  If your hunter's spirit is pure, the fox spirit will restore proper use of your barrel once you make organic lime and tan the sacrificed fox's pelt.

Edited March 21, 2016 by emuthreat
That's not a knife!

[IMT 3190]

1 hour ago, emuthreat said:

Go find a fox.  Chase it until the path-finding Gods give you a geometry trap.  Force-feed the fox a can of sardines, then gently kill it with an improvised *knoife*, and repent.  If your hunter's spirit is pure, the fox spirit will restore proper use of your barrel once you make organic lime and tan the sacrificed fox's pelt.

I already sacrificed multiple cows so according to the Buddhism I'm pure. Guess the hunter God does not like me.

[S3V3N 1402]

5 hours ago, IMT said:

. I put one of my pelts and some garden lime in the barrel and clicked "Tan pelts". Now obviously you don't watch the time each minute while playing but at that time the server restarted again. Now I can't use my barrel anymore. It doesn't have the open lid option anymore. I think God is punishing me for killing an innocent person for his barrel.

Any solution to this problem?

I have never experienced this over a restart, but shouldn't the time be "persistent", i.e. the pelts be tanned after restart? It might take a while, as it always does, but did you get your tanned leather in the end, or was the process stuck? Idk - when it doesn't work, maybe hit or shoot it ^^ it's the only remedy I know in Dayz. I have my degree in Russian Engineering! 

Edited March 21, 2016 by S3V3N

[IMT 3190]

1 minute ago, S3V3N said:

I have never experienced this over a restart, but shouldn't the time be "persistent", i.e. the pelts be tanned after restart? It might take a while, as it always does, but did you get your tanned leather in the end, or was the process stuck? Idk - if it doesn't work, maybe hit or shoot it ^^ it's the only remedy I know in Dayz. I have my degree in Russian Engineering! 

Perhaps I was a bit too hasty but the problem is that I took the garden lime and pelts out. I also took the barrel in the hands, don't know if that does something. I will try and wait longer later today. Hopefully it will get fixed automatically.

[tenmbits 2]

On 3/17/2016 at 8:24 PM, Hicks_206 (DayZ) said:

Each barrel color spawns and maintains a level of around 30 per color, on .59 - with a lifetime of 8 days without being interacted with.

The 8 days is refreshed any time you move an item inside it.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/3wx9br/psasome_persistence_tests/

I did some persistence tests, and didn't get said results. Was my test wrong?