The Human Body Engine

[Jex 1104]

This has been discussed before but time to bring it up again with a few maybe new ideas.

 

Human beings cannot 720 in a millisecond. The human body can only move so fast and is not immune for momentum. I don't know a single game that even bothers to approximate this and the reason for that is that it would probably feel completely alien to everyone who have been brought up on unrealistic "twitch shooters"

 

Running should be re-engineered to fit closer to how the human body works in the real world and really by now, game developers should be working on the Human Body Engine v1.0 (or whatever they want to call it). What this engine would do is the following type of things.

 

- It would put everyone on exactly the same playing field much like FPS's do today. It might be worth adding in variables but that would be for niche products. Everyone needs to be on a level playing field as far as your AV moves in it's environment.

 

- Whilst moving around the world, the body would act realistically and interact realistically. You run into a tree at full sprint (Something we've all done in DayZ) you're going to hurt yourself if you have no head protection. Your head will move independently from your body (like we have currently). You will turn like a human being and not like some mutated ninja which means if you're sprinting one direction you cannot immediately turn and sprint the other way. Turning, as in rotating yourself will depend on the state of your body. If you're standing still it would be fast. If you're sprinting your ability to turn would be hampered. All times and motions would be tested first by observing how real people move.

 

- The world would be a different place. Already in games we are seeing our AV's leap over and under things. This needs to be the new standard in games. No longer is that 6 foot fence going to block us. We're going to be able to climb over it and we're not going to be stuck with 3 ridiculous stances either but have a multi stance system like we see in Arma 3 (and needs to be put into DayZ and quite frankly, every other FPS). Ravensheld did it really well where it was completely fluid (not staged like in Arma) and a fluid stance system is the way forward.

 

- Items will have weight. You carry heavier things you slow down. A pistol lets your aim it quicker than an M60. The difference once again should be taken from real world tests and there won't be much in it. It will still be down to the players reflexes and skill in aiming to shoot the other guy. Things in your inventory will be accessible depending on where they are. Things in your backpack are unreachable from the main part of it, side pockets maybe but you are not pulling out a can of beans from the bottom of your pack whilst it's still on your back. If you want it, the pack must come off or get a friend to get it for you.

 

Medical - This one is a little trickier as we are playing a game and we don't want to be dying or sat in a corner with broken arms and legs. This part of the system could be massively complex allowing it to be tailored to the needs of the game. In DayZ, we see a rudimentary system already in place. Injuries should make players move slower in all ways but it would be dependent on the injury and where it was. A FPS might not need a system for diseases, but it should certainly have a skeleton and bones. To keep players in the game, it shouldn't go completely into real life (though that should be an option) but I'll reference Raven Shield again - when you got wounded in that, you could only limp around the map and your aim was worse as well (I think).

 

This is not a complete list of things and we're not going to see anything like this anytime soon but in a game like DayZ this would work extremely well and to anyone who is bored of twitch shooters and wants some real depth to their games, having a system like this that is scale-able could add so much more to gameplay allowing things like useful and challenging combat medic roles (In Arma ACE they had a really good system that made playing medic fun (well, when all your friends were getting shot LOL). We would all love the benefit of being able to climb up or over almost anything and making movement more realistic (so no bunny-hopping BS or zigzagging) will make people think about the decisions they're about to make when moving.

 

This isn't to say that those type of elements are wrong in a game but having something deeper makes for a better experience and this isn't going to replace twitch shooters but should offer something along side it for when players want to have a bit more in their gameplay.

[philippj 103]

You are taking points of various different game mechanics and throw them into, without knowing that each of them need to interact with each other but are not part of each other.

 

There is nothing like a direct human body engine, that would smth that need players to actually fullyfie the needs of the human body and go on from there, how the energy from your food is procedd, pooping, peeing (getting a heart attack ) all kinds of this stuff. That has nothing to do with what you described, you wanted a "realistic" movement system AND an enhanced inventory system with interacts with the movement/animation speed of the movement system and medical care is a part that goes hand in hand with the damage system and and changes the things how animations or certain game mechanics are handled.

 

Most of this is packed together in a player controller which is currently in development.

[LucidHills 94]

This all sounds like pretty good ideas. I do like the running into things at sprint should hurt (or trip?) you idea, but with desync, this could be a nightmare.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

This is just a physics engine you have described.  You don't need it specifically for the player character, as you just need to make the player character an object and then hitch a camera to it.

This takes up a large amount of computing power though, to be able to model, track, predict and respond to so many variables instantaneously at every point... Not that it can't be done, but that it is a significant and ambitious suggestion that will probably be overlooked because, for the most part, i'd say it's un-necessary and the market would judge it similarly.

 

Look at Counter Strike as an example.  I've been upset continuously at the way that the camera behaves in CS.  It's almost as if the camera is actually at the gun barrel, and bullets fly out of centre camera.  This is the reason why people are able to wall peek with awp, Right Hand weapon model, all i can see is their left shoulder/elbow (with my right hand model) and they're able to land shots on me (albeit through a wall).

It's frustrating, but to quote DayZ, "it's a feature".  These are all nuances of the game that distinguish it from one or another.  You obviously have expressed a particular play style but that isn't always what people, markets or developers want.  Look at UT.  People are doing quadruple backflips off walls, or even double jumps from the air...  It's impossible.  It's outlandish.  It's Unreal.

 

Not trying to shoot you down really, just pointing out that while certain elements of a game may frustrate us, they are the framework within which we must identify, train to and work within.  That is what makes you a 'good player': knowing the subtleties of your game of choice.  It would appear that many of these games are not of your choice though, and you want something a bit more pure-sim not sim-lite or 'twitch'.  That's fine.  My biggest concern for pure-sim though is that it becomes needlessly complex, and ultimately if you're after that 'i can do X in real life but not in game' then you'll be frustrated regardless because there's a limit to what we can model.

 

As far as 'level playing field', you can get close, but if you're talking MP here there's always going to be someone with the upper hand.  Be it ping, computer performance, hacks, rate fiddling, (or just exploring and perfecting glitches/upper hand nuances of the game)...

 

Edit: above remarks are mainly to do with physics issues, which i feel you want a 'true realism'. Probably quite difficult.  And ultimately, I still feel that this is circumvented by the 'code' which actually develops the movement.  I'm sure the crazy running on rollerskates motion can be changed in DayZ, I'm just not sure if a full physics overhaul is required.

 

Medical etc... yeah sure.  America's Army2 had a pretty med-lite scheme where you investigated the subject who returned a response.  There were 4 options for treatment being paired to each individual response.  To give the wrong treatment resulted in death of subject.  There could well be something like this in DayZ with med.

 

Overall, i agree with your post, because i'm a hardwhore gamer.  Ravenshield got my jollies off (and i was only aware of fluid lean/doors, not stance :O ).  Was thinking about this the other day how 3pp camera is basically you peeking over a wall only not actually exposing yourself (analogous to CS example).  Maybe they can contextualise some of these events - as CoD did to vault and GoW did to 'suck to cover' so why not peek etc... but again i feel that this can lead to it becoming overly complex from both a code perspective, and from a control scheme issue (if you can't innovate and use cheeky context mechanics, but still every ledge window etc would need to be tagged or something to allow for this).

Edited November 26, 2015 by q.S Sachiel

[KenoSkir88 181]

I agree for the most part. A realistic "turning at speed" calculation would change the scope of the entire game, making use of cover and other real life tactics a necessity.

[Mos1ey 6301]

This has been discussed before but time to bring it up again with a few maybe new ideas.

 

Human beings cannot 720 in a millisecond. The human body can only move so fast and is not immune for momentum. I don't know a single game that even bothers to approximate this and the reason for that is that it would probably feel completely alien to everyone who have been brought up on unrealistic "twitch shooters"

 

We used to have negative accel for this. Everyone hated it.

 

Running should be re-engineered to fit closer to how the human body works in the real world and really by now, game developers should be working on the Human Body Engine v1.0 (or whatever they want to call it). What this engine would do is the following type of things.

 

- It would put everyone on exactly the same playing field much like FPS's do today. It might be worth adding in variables but that would be for niche products. Everyone needs to be on a level playing field as far as your AV moves in it's environment.

 

- Whilst moving around the world, the body would act realistically and interact realistically. You run into a tree at full sprint (Something we've all done in DayZ) you're going to hurt yourself if you have no head protection. Your head will move independently from your body (like we have currently). You will turn like a human being and not like some mutated ninja which means if you're sprinting one direction you cannot immediately turn and sprint the other way. Turning, as in rotating yourself will depend on the state of your body. If you're standing still it would be fast. If you're sprinting your ability to turn would be hampered. All times and motions would be tested first by observing how real people move.

 

You have much better spacial awareness in real life than you do in a game. Punishing the player for bumping into an object doesn't really make sense.

 

- The world would be a different place. Already in games we are seeing our AV's leap over and under things. This needs to be the new standard in games. No longer is that 6 foot fence going to block us. We're going to be able to climb over it and we're not going to be stuck with 3 ridiculous stances either but have a multi stance system like we see in Arma 3 (and needs to be put into DayZ and quite frankly, every other FPS). Ravensheld did it really well where it was completely fluid (not staged like in Arma) and a fluid stance system is the way forward.

 

I'm not really sure how climbing etc. would work, given that it would have to depend on what you are currently carrying and your hands would have to be empty. I suppose it's possible, but would be quite a bit of work and I'm not sure how intuitive it would be in-game.

 

I believe the Arma 3 stance system was not ported over because it feels too "militaristic".

 

- Items will have weight. You carry heavier things you slow down. A pistol lets your aim it quicker than an M60. The difference once again should be taken from real world tests and there won't be much in it. It will still be down to the players reflexes and skill in aiming to shoot the other guy. Things in your inventory will be accessible depending on where they are. Things in your backpack are unreachable from the main part of it, side pockets maybe but you are not pulling out a can of beans from the bottom of your pack whilst it's still on your back. If you want it, the pack must come off or get a friend to get it for you.

 

Most players have a set sensitivity that they use across all games. Having it change on the fly would not be good IMO. Plus it wouldn't be difficult to change DPI to negate the difference. Mouse sensitivity should always remain the same IMO.

 

As for inventory suggestion, I agree. I think only being able to access objects in pockets and vest pouches via the hotbar and having to use the inventory screen to access your backpack would be an improvement.

 

Medical - This one is a little trickier as we are playing a game and we don't want to be dying or sat in a corner with broken arms and legs. This part of the system could be massively complex allowing it to be tailored to the needs of the game. In DayZ, we see a rudimentary system already in place. Injuries should make players move slower in all ways but it would be dependent on the injury and where it was. A FPS might not need a system for diseases, but it should certainly have a skeleton and bones. To keep players in the game, it shouldn't go completely into real life (though that should be an option) but I'll reference Raven Shield again - when you got wounded in that, you could only limp around the map and your aim was worse as well (I think).

 

Yeah, a more in depth medical system that actually affects the abilities of your character would be great.

 

This is not a complete list of things and we're not going to see anything like this anytime soon but in a game like DayZ this would work extremely well and to anyone who is bored of twitch shooters and wants some real depth to their games, having a system like this that is scale-able could add so much more to gameplay allowing things like useful and challenging combat medic roles (In Arma ACE they had a really good system that made playing medic fun (well, when all your friends were getting shot LOL). We would all love the benefit of being able to climb up or over almost anything and making movement more realistic (so no bunny-hopping BS or zigzagging) will make people think about the decisions they're about to make when moving.

 

This isn't to say that those type of elements are wrong in a game but having something deeper makes for a better experience and this isn't going to replace twitch shooters but should offer something along side it for when players want to have a bit more in their gameplay.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Mos1ey

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

I like some of these concepts but I would tone them down significantly or not use some altogether.

 

I do hope we see an animation for removing backpack to get to large storage area and more location specific inventory stuff.

 

Stamina and weight will also bring on some of the mechanics you spoke of.

[Just Caused 423]

-snip-

 

I would just rather have better FPS first.

[Bigbadchuck 97]

I would just rather have better FPS first.

This guy gets it ^^^

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I would just rather have better FPS first.

 

You win.

 

I tried playing DayZ for the first time in two months after going on an H1Z1 Battle Royale stint, and I almost died of a spontaneous brain aneurysm.

[sachad 1016]

You win.

 

I tried playing DayZ for the first time in two months after going on an H1Z1 Battle Royale stint, and I almost died of a spontaneous brain aneurysm.

 

I knew I'd never be that lucky ;)

[p4triot 207]

text

 

Chars used to be unable in DayZ to 720 in a ms, or half a second, or a second, or even 3 seconds. Was AWFUL. Real Life its not the same than playing on a screen, so the devs changed it a long time ago. Now you control your view in real time, which makes up sometimes for the lack of peripherical vision and you feel like you control your char, but your weapon lags behind (not enough anyway imho, and yes weight should be added).

 

Same goes for smashing into trees and getting damaged. How many times do you hit yourself against a tree/wall/door/fence IRL and how many times do you ingame, I bet its a lot more ingame. Movement isn't as fluid, precise, natural and subconscient ingame than IRL therebefore its a lot more propense to accidents, therebefore its good to have a lot more endurance ingame to make up for it. Same go for car endurance. I know crashing your car some ways IRL will destroy it but if ingame same skilled driver has 10x more accidents, cars should be 10x more tough.

 

Agree with the stance, climbing, vaulting, etc. And more important, this sould all be done client side. Right now server "decides" and there before you have to wait for an answer before vaulting, resulting in your retard character looking at a fence like an idiot before actually vaulting it, or vaulting the air because server made a mistake due to unsynchronized information. Theres no ping or sync needed on client side.

 

100% Agree with backpack, pockets and medical system.

Edited November 27, 2015 by p4triot

[p4triot 207]

Look at Counter Strike as an example.  I've been upset continuously at the way that the camera behaves in CS.  It's almost as if the camera is actually at the gun barrel, and bullets fly out of centre camera.

 

 

Thats exactly the way it is. In CS bullets come out of your eyes, not your barrel. But anyway CS doesnt pretend to be realistic in anyway. For me its like chess, just a game with a set of rules, the fact that there's a "king" on it doesn't mean it should be "medieval realistic".

 

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Thats exactly the way it is. In CS bullets come out of your eyes, not your barrel. But anyway CS doesnt pretend to be realistic in anyway. For me its like chess, just a game with a set of rules, the fact that there's a "king" on it doesn't mean it should be "medieval realistic".

 

I think you made a comment rather than a response, (pure) but yeah, that's just what I mean. There's an inherrent set of rules (code/structure of game) that we must abide by, as in real life.  You can make it as realistic as possible sure, but you'll probably still not get it 'real' and even then, you need to understand your limitations and advantages (be it glitches or set behaviors like dispersion / bullet spray patterns as examples) and then play to those.

 

The better player is always the one that knows both sides of the coin, what they can and can not do.

 

And again, if you really want to try to boil it down to 'even playing field' well then everyone is even anyway.  It's just latency and computer performance that will set you apart.  Everyone is existing within the set model.  The rest is going to come down to luck etc.  ATM, DayZ is not a good and equal system, yes, because even when you have the drop on someone you may experience some anomaly that they don't and you're at a disadvantage (particularly if you've been given away somehow or they know you're there, and are hostile).

 

So good proposals/suggestions by OP, but pretty moot atm still.

[p4triot 207]

I think you made a comment rather than a response, (pure) but yeah, that's just what I mean. There's an inherrent set of rules (code/structure of game) that we must abide by, as in real life.  You can make it as realistic as possible sure, but you'll probably still not get it 'real' and even then, you need to understand your limitations and advantages (be it glitches or set behaviors like dispersion / bullet spray patterns as examples) and then play to those.

 

The better player is always the one that knows both sides of the coin, what they can and can not do.

 

And again, if you really want to try to boil it down to 'even playing field' well then everyone is even anyway.  It's just latency and computer performance that will set you apart.  Everyone is existing within the set model.  The rest is going to come down to luck etc.  ATM, DayZ is not a good and equal system, yes, because even when you have the drop on someone you may experience some anomaly that they don't and you're at a disadvantage (particularly if you've been given away somehow or they know you're there, and are hostile).

 

So good proposals/suggestions by OP, but pretty moot atm still.

 

Wasnt just a comment. I do know for sure bullets come out of your eyes in CS, im a global elite on csgo and I have been playing the game for 15 years now. Theres some videos explaning it. But what I mean by it is that in CS it means nothing because its a game with a set of rules specifically for Counter Strike that it shouldn't and probably will never change. If the next CS adds new movements like scoping down from every weapon, or laying on the floor, or AK not 1-hs-kill & so on, every veteran player would get mad (I know I would) because they're changing the rules. Thats what I meant.

 

Day Z on the other side its different, because the rules in here arent "rules" but an inherent intention of aproximation to a realistic feeling (at least where it has sense - so no 6 months fractures, obviously-) and therebefore any change made to aproximate to that reality its going to be well received by the community.

Edited November 27, 2015 by p4triot

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I knew I'd never be that lucky ;)

 

LOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Wasnt just a comment. I do know for sure bullets come out of your eyes in CS, im a global elite on csgo and I have been playing the game for 15 years now. Theres some videos explaning it. But what I mean by it is that in CS it means nothing because its a game with a set of rules specifically for Counter Strike that it shouldn't and probably will never change. If the next CS adds new movements like scoping down from every weapon, or laying on the floor, or AK not 1-hs-kill & so on, every veteran player would get mad (I know I would) because they're changing the rules. Thats what I meant.

 

Day Z on the other side its different, because the rules in here arent "rules" but an inherent intention of aproximation to a realistic feeling (at least where it has sense - so no 6 months fractures, obviously-) and therebefore any change made to aproximate to that reality its going to be well received by the community.

yeah, just meant to say we seem to share the same idea and our posts support eachother.

:)

just finished off some CS myself.  got rekt 16;12 :(

[Jex 1104]

Thanks for the responses. Rather than reply to everyone I'll just add a few other things. The idea of the post was to get my thoughts out and not necessarily define the way it should be but rather give an idea of what we could have. As computing power increases, this kind of complexity can be achieved putting a lot more emphasis on how you behave in the real world. If you sprint into an object, yes, you should hurt. People don't need to be wary of objects because there's no penalty but if there was, people would adapt accordingly.

 

I should have also mentioned movement speeds akin to splinter cell - have 5 different speeds so we can define our movement how we want it to be rather than being stuck with 3 types.

 

Like I said, there are a ton of FPS's already that have twitch shooter mechanics and I think it's time to up the game and give something with more depth to it. It would have to be done right though so it felt fluid enough.

 

If the weapon weight was hated, then it wasn't done right, perhaps. It needs to be what you would expect in real life and we can move things pretty fast that are in our hands. What it doesn't need to be is ridiculously slow to the point where everyone is wtf'ing.

 

I added in things like interacting with backpacks because it is our bodies that do this.

 

Like I said, it would need to be done not like real life but a close enough approximation to simulate ourselves in our avatars and hopefully provide more immersion.