The struggle of ghillie snipers

[schwaBAM 200]

I wholeheartedly accept the alpha argument. My point was that there are a lot of things that are implemented that have little to no use. And the existing functionality just sucks in many areas. But that is just how DayZ is at the moment.

Sorry that this makes you sick. I hope you feel better soon.

He was saying that there is a good use for the compass.  You can put it in your hotkey toolbar and never have to stop to take it out.  It's rather nifty I must say.  

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Nearly everything has a use in this game. Just because you may not use it, doesn't mean it does not have a use. I can probably find a use for anything you list. (Aside from car-part tools like wrenches etc) And yes, we're not even in beta yet so in the rare case of a completely pointless item, it will be fixed

 

Hi.

The compass is broken and despite being a 'tool to be used' it cannot be used the way it is actually meant to be used.

The current implementation of the compass (as just an example) is akin to using a hammer to cut down a tree.  Yes it's a tool but no it's not meant to do that / that way.

 

As pointed out, the ARMA compass popup is aligned to your characters direction and is not offset by some random and unknown angle, is functional immediately and doesn't have all the useless bells and whistles of that in DayZ.

 

I believe you missed the crux of the point though, in that a rubuttal was made to the remark of ghilli suits being completely useless and to appease the KoS scum crowd, while there are numerous 'functional' items in game that do not serve their purpose well or at all (making them non-functional).  The very fact that a person needs to work for a ghilli, work harder to stay alive with it, and continue working harder than without it, to maintain it; it's rarity and scarcity; and the emotion that it invokes in other players would legitimise the Ghilli's purpose, functional or otherwise.

 

If people went nuts over a purple party hat that took a week of scrounging to make, i'd shoot every sob i saw with one, just so that i could be king of the shitheap.

[scriptfactory 620]

The very fact that a person needs to work for a ghilli, work harder to stay alive with it, and continue working harder than without it, to maintain it; it's rarity and scarcity; and the emotion that it invokes in other players would legitimise the Ghilli's purpose, functional or otherwise.

 

Thank you for explaining in your eloquent way what I was trying to say. Everything was spot on. :)

[pilgrim* 3514]

eh different strokes different folks i usually wear the hunting stuff and try to go with earth tones. I've had countless folks just run by me and not even notice i was there, I think a lot of it is based on movement ..//...

 

" If you don't move they cant see you "

 

Famous real-war quote - I think it was originated by photographer Robert Capa who finally died when he stepped on a mine in Indochina (I guess that counts as ...'he moved'). Amazing guy, - from the spanish civil war to vietnam, he was there -  you should check up on his record and photos, and girlfriends. He worked in war zones for 25 years, so I guess he knew.

 

Back In DayZ:

 

- at a distance you can see anyone moving about the SAME whatever they are wearing - you see a small size sprite and its a dark color, almost a black shape, exactly like distant zombies or distant animals, doesn't matter what the clothes are because you can't see any clothing colors. You see movement.

- Coming closer up (at mid distance) you can see details of clothing but it is still movement that counts most - it's a sprite moving across your screen, THAT'S what draws the eye.

- You can see clothing details (real colors) ONLY at mid-to-close distances.. and if the gear blends in a little, or you aren't concentrating, you don't notice. Generally - If the player is not moving you probably wont notice, unless he's standing upright out in the open (like on a road). If he's moving, you WILL notice as soon as you're looking that way.

- So, any drab clothes are OK. I've used a damaged yellow raincoat.. because it's damaged it blends in pretty well with bushes, it does not look bright. Any clothing close to ruined looks drab enough to help hide you , even red or yellow (damaged yellow is better than damaged red).

 

- Your face (white) might probably give you away first, if players are close and are LOOKING. So a bit of "sniper netting" or a stick of facepaint in the game would be great.

 

Because of the mechanics of the game-visuals, a ghillie suit can be useful if the other player is 0-15m away, but outside that distance there's no big difference, and at mid to far distance there's no difference at all. Probably you are best with any drab clothes and a dark skin color for your tune. This combination will give you the most advantage you can get in a range of situations (as long as you don't move).

 

seems that 80% of play takes place in towns anyway, as far as I can see... but we have no urban camo suits in the game. Not that it would make a real in-game difference to visibility any more or less than the ghillie (same as I explained above). But an urban 'ghillie suit' should cheer up the players who like that stuff.

 

xx

Edited October 2, 2015 by pilgrim

[Syphonz 64]

If the devs crank up the rendering distance for grass, BOOM.

 

You have workable ghille.

 

 

As for the discussion if its worthwhile or not....there is alot of shit in the game thats not worthwhile. If you WANT REALISM, ITS A APOCALYPSE. There is going to be useless shit scattered everywhere in a situation like that. If you dont like it/want it, move your ass along.

[pilgrim* 3514]

If the devs crank up the rendering distance for grass, BOOM.

 

You have workable ghille.

..//..

 

My understanding is that grass rendered at different distances is based on different TEXTURES... it's not one texture ("grass") that is rendered for different distances.

(someone tell me if Im wrong)

this is a problem for all the textures - like the famous question "why do forest trees look like sticks from a distance?"

 

But still, the idea behind what you're suggesting makes good sense...

 

It might be easier for the programers just to make ghillies invisible to other players outside a given radius, instead of altering the texture-sets used in the whole game (that could be pretty hairy, software engineers wake up at night covered in sweat and screaming already, ya know.. that's why so many of them aren't married)

 

xx

[Jex 1104]

There is so much useless stuff in the game right now. Like the compass that opens and closes... why do we need this? I want a compass keybind like in Arma (e.g. 'K'), not a shitty compass that is wrong most of the time and has a fancy lid. Or the OTS 3PP camera that didn't fix wall-peeking and not many people like. Why is it still in the game?

 

Ghillie suits should probably have a purpose but they DO provide a goal in a game with way too little functional (as opposed to cosmetic) content.

 

You don't need to ever hold the compass because it works when ur looking at it in ur quick slots ;)

[Yuval 221]

The reason behind the grass is due to performance issues. Rendering thousands of vegetational objects will kill most PCs

[pilgrim* 3514]

The reason behind the grass is due to performance issues. Rendering thousands of vegetational objects will kill most PCs

 

Right

And if you ran your client game on a Cray it would not be great,even then.

If you paste the same "close-up" texture on everything for miles and then render it to one POV it will not look good  - An obvious example =>  IRL hills in the background do not look the same to the human eye as hills in the mid distance - they are a darker color for starters. Same texture at different distances wont work, even if you could (and you can't, using today's top PCs )

 

but for better gameplay there can be workarounds, maybe?

 

For instance - Decide that players wearing X gear are not rendered at all until they are inside a set distance (try out what is a good distance for that) eg in the middle distance texture range

- you could also do the same for tents

There might be a realistic aspect to this in gameplay, so it doesn't seem crazy - IRL you "suddenly" notice a camo tent when you are quite close, or when you scope to search. IRL you don't see a ghillie until he suddenly 'pops into sight' coming towards you, when he's close enough. In the game this can be imitated because he's not rendered outside a set radius.

 

Its an idea - it still doesn't solve a bunch of problems, but its a workaround that can be implemented.And make ghillies and tents more useful, AND seem kind of more realistic.

Jexter mentions a similar thing earlier in this thread, about hunting advantage.

 

The distance/texture problem has always been present in DayZ since the mod - it is not caused by any engine it's just the way things are done in all games. DayZ SA involves a lot of distance and mid-distance actions, so it's an important problem in this game.

Give special treatment to designated stuff - like ghillies or tents.. seems the only way out.

 

xx pilgrim

 

(off topic: - put in a stick of camo greasepaint for us bums who live in bushes

  or make payday masks sprayable so we can paint them green? )

Edited October 3, 2015 by pilgrim

[Bororm 1156]

I don't like the idea of making anything flat out invisible.  If you look carefully enough, you should be able to notice these things.

 

There could stand to be more bushes, foliage, small trees, other objects in rural/wilderness areas.  The north east portion of the map that was redone actually isn't bad in that regard, but there's no reason to fight up there.  In places like the woods around myshkino tents (arguably the most active wooded pvp area) there's hardly anything so people just stick out.  That's true of most of the map, it's usually a handful of pines, maybe a couple bushes, and a whole lot of nothing.

[danfinger (DayZ) 14]

 

If i were to tongue your mouth, i get the distinct feeling i'd get a sharp tang of salt.

Dont make me tongue your mouth now...

HEY! I'm trying to eat lunch here. Yeash.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

You don't need to ever hold the compass because it works when ur looking at it in ur quick slots ;)

yeah that is a handy trick to get a more accurate bearing, but it's still tedious to turn, tab, rclick, inspect ; turn tab rclick inspect...

The compass can be quite a powerful tool, more so when combined with other tools such as dividers, maps, etc...

 

This cannot be done at present and i do find it frustrating despite rarely needing to use a compass

 

edit: on teh subject of draw distances, etc..

what about IDtech supertextures? :P

 

There could be better quality ground textures to draw at range and ignore the grass so as to provide a better standard of basic blend to ground.

Edited October 2, 2015 by q.S Sachiel

[stinkenheim 249]

yeah that is a handy trick to get a more accurate bearing, but it's still tedious to turn, tab, rclick, inspect ; turn tab rclick inspect...

The compass can be quite a powerful tool, more so when combined with other tools such as dividers, maps, etc...

 

This cannot be done at present and i do find it frustrating despite rarely needing to use a compass

 

edit: on teh subject of draw distances, etc..

what about IDtech supertextures? :P

 

There could be better quality ground textures to draw at range and ignore the grass so as to provide a better standard of basic blend to ground.

 

Actually he means that the compass will show up in your hotbar and will show the direction that way. No need to open the menu and inspect the compass.

[KenoSkir88 181]

 

yeah that is a handy trick to get a more accurate bearing, but it's still tedious to turn, tab, rclick, inspect ; turn tab rclick inspect...

 

Hehe, i'll bet it's tedious when you don't know how to use a compass in dayz :) I tend to set it as the number 8 or 9 slot in the hotbar so it's always visible bottom right of the screen. Hit the ` (tilde) key to the left of the number 1 key to view the hotbar without changing weapons.

[pilgrim* 3514]

I don't like the idea of making anything flat out invisible.  If you look carefully enough, you should be able to notice these things.

..//..

 

I think I agree with you - I was looking for a workaround - the problem is at middle distances and beyond

- a sniper (close up) is lying under low overhanging fir branches with tall grass in front of him

- from a distance he's lying on a lawn between a couple of sticks. He might even be out on the lawn in front of the forest completely - in the open on a flat surface with zero cover and a standard background that shows him up REAL good.

 

This is not only the textures used at the moment - at mid to far any grassy ground has a texture you could call "lawn" but ALSO the problem is that any a play object - such as a gun or a player or a can of beans - is DRAWN in the game in a different way to the static textures. Its a sprite.

So they will always be visible, Like in a kiddy color book where you take a background color and stick on a cutout - a thing with an outline and detail-shadows that look black at a distance.

In play the "play objects" do NOT "blend in" at all.. at a distance this is very very obvious.. (eg, you can scope loot lying around crash sites from a mile away, much easier than going close to look for it)

 

Remember the healing plant you needed in the mod? - to find it you had to go AWAY from it - if you looked from middle distance you could see it standing all alone on the "lawn", if yo went close it was mixed in the grass and very hard to see, So from a distance you could check a whole field in 5 seconds... that's because the plant is a "play object" so it is NOT a "background' texture, it is created separately and it SHOWS. Same in SA now for any loot or any player. This is why tents are so EASY to spot if you stay on the NEXT hill and scope for them, you see them standing on a on a lawn with ZERO foliage. Don't bother going closer, they're harder to see.

 

Unfortunately it 100% doesn't matter what you are wearing... so "look carefully" is not really the case - to "blend" your tune has to be invisible or transparent at a distance, but you aren't so it is EASIER to see you from a distance than from close, any clothes makes no difference to that. And changing to 'new textures' dosn't make a difference either - IMO "supertexture" is even worse (q.S.Sachiel), its a compression alg. to help the PC rebuild "really neat" textures.. meaning close-up textures. I think you would show up even more on that background. - if "even more" were possible.. except you show up at max visibility already.

 

What you wear AND ground, tree, grass, bush rendering ONLY make a difference at close range. That's all.

 

Talking about "new rendering" is real interesting but I'd have to see it to be convinced.. I give that ZERO faith.

ATM ... nah - dudes, the snipers will always stand out like they were wearing school safety dazzle colors, and the little birds will always see the tents like they were set in the middle of an empty superstore car park.

 

Prove me wrong. Give me good thoughts on this.

 

xx

Edited October 3, 2015 by pilgrim

[q.S Sachiel 470]

touche on hotbar compas placement showing bearing... beans for you two (and others overlooked).

Does this mean that it updates your bearing in real time then?

 

As an alternative to making ghilli's invisible (not render) at distance, you could re-render them as something else like a rough tree outline.  This would of course require a new animation (unless you want a 'floating' sprite hovering across terrain at distance) and would probably cause some loss of immersion/act as a spotting cue for people moving in and out of the draw distance (making the render 'pop' from dodgy bush to actual ghilli render)...

 

There's probably a few things in there you could add, but i'd argue that forest ghilli should be ineffective at grass/urban/barrent etc, and options could be made to tailor your ghilli to that terrain by gathering items or applying different paints for example.

 

But this is all more work, arguably unnecessary given that ghillies tend to hide in clusters of trees anyway, and they survived well in the mod with similar issues.

Silhouette and blend are still the two most important features of concealment at the moment.

Edited October 3, 2015 by q.S Sachiel

[pilgrim* 3514]

^

yes q.Sachiel - been thinking over your post, about visibility.

leaving urban camo aside for now - even though I hear you and its a real interesting topic (... except to say that black, green, and mid-grey face paint sticks would be a good thing.. IMO very easy to do because you don't need to change any face skins - just 2 bars under each eye and 1 across the forehead, of the chosen color,  can be applied as gear in the game exactly like putting on sunglasses) 

*

 

So, the distance problem In SA.

The ghillie is only one special (extreme) case of what players look like at a distance. The look of any loot object or player seen at middle to far distance, is just wrong and unrealistic.
the whole texture/rendering thing is wrong (sure, there's nothing to be done about that, but it is Not Good)
A sniper can get under cover where he can just see out of the wood between hanging branches and foliage, and just see through tall grass, enough to take aim. he can NOT move back further into cover, if he moves back he wont be able to see anything
But if I look at him from 50+ meters away, he's completely out in front of the cover.

IRL this would be exactly the reverse, right?

Suppose we took our set of active in-game objects, and - just as as we do for map textures - we gave them a different skin (a different texture) for each of the 3 different ranges, close, mid, distant...
Each of these 3 skins would be based on the close-up texture, but the mid distance would be much less dark (because = less detail, no shadows and folds in clothes, less definition, less distinctive pattern, more generic, in fact a kind of camoflage, details outlines and shade differences gone), and the far distance skin would be fairly featureless.. say by using the original game-object skin with now 90-95% blending towards  "standard DayZ distant green" ...(replace whatever skin the game object has close up, by the same shape skin, but virtually mono-color and just about featureless)

This would mean someone wearing a yellow raincoat would show up much better at a distance than someone wearing drab clothes..  that's what happens in real life.

and everybody would be more difficult to see in the distance, whatever they wore, so long as they don't move too much to give themselves away

In the game ATM I see someone running at a distance - first I see is something "black" moving the way only a player can move - so I know it's a player.

When he gets closer I can see what the dude is wearing.

Worse - If I scope somewhere in the distance, I can see a ghillie just as well as I can see a guy in red with a colored payday mask, or a bare face, or a nude white guy in shorts... sure - I might not notice a ghillie behind a treetrunk - but just as easily I might not notice a guy in white underwear in that same place.

The problem for the ghillie sniper is HE has a whole bunch of grass and leaves in his face.. if he can even see me to shoot, his bullet might easily bounce off a damn twig or a leaf in a tree-boundary or ground object-boundary . but while he has that (big) problem, I don't have any problem at ALL   - I can SEE him, no problem.
Most probably I can shoot him dead too.

He's the ghillie sniper, so he's in trouble.. not me..

that's seriously unrealistic

 

xx [ I've been checking urban camo, right back to my ol' grandad's photos from his Home Guard urban warfare guide.. => red brick and grey colors, with Z dazzle(breakup) patterns, a vertical divided half-black face,and a bit of some see-through netting to cover eyes - wow - it's a 1940s urban ghillie) I'll put up links when I have a few interesting ones, more modern ]

Edited October 3, 2015 by pilgrim

[atempleton 123]

Camouflage has its place in survival, for hunting and for harder detection in hostile environments. However, Ghillie Suits are the worst thing for survival. You will quickly overheat and dehydrate yourself and they are big and clumsy. Honestly, digital camouflage (like the USMC clothing) is the most effective camouflage out there, whilst not killing yourself wearing it.

[KenoSkir88 181]

Camouflage has its place in survival, for hunting and for harder detection in hostile environments. However, Ghillie Suits are the worst thing for survival. You will quickly overheat and dehydrate yourself and they are big and clumsy. Honestly, digital camouflage (like the USMC clothing) is the most effective camouflage out there, whilst not killing yourself wearing it.

 

I've worn a couple of different ghillie suits over the past few years, and to be completely honest i think the heat factor is being exaggerated a little in DayZ and also on these forums. I was warm but at no time hot even when jogging medium distances, in summer and winter in the Uk climate. The camouflage was excellent and several times i had people walk within a couple of meters of me without the slightest clue i was there. In a DayZ style survival situation it would be perfectly possible to construct a ghillie suit to fit the needs of the climate. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that i could feasibly wear a light ghillie suit all day every day for an extended time if the need was there and the alternate risk was great enough. It stands to reason that infected possess the same senses as a healthy human, and therefor a ghillie suit is a VERY effective way to avoid detection in an area of matching vegetation. To put it simply, if i were in DayZ in real life i would seriously consider making a ghillie suit. I think the in-game ghillie suit looks so thick and solid that it seems to some that it would be impossible to exert the slightest effort wearing one, this is not the case since ghillie suits must match the climate as well as just the local flora. You are not going to kill yourself wearing it unless you make or use it very badly.

 

EDIT : Typo

Edited October 9, 2015 by KenoSkir88

[pilgrim* 3514]

Hi.

The compass is broken and despite being a 'tool to be used' it cannot be used the way it is actually meant to be used.

The current implementation of the compass (as just an example) is akin to using a hammer to cut down a tree.  Yes it's a tool but no it's not meant to do that / that way.

 

As pointed out, the ARMA compass popup is aligned to your characters direction and is not offset by some random and unknown angle, is functional immediately and doesn't have all the useless bells and whistles of that in DayZ.

 

..//.. there are numerous 'functional' items in game that do not serve their purpose well or at all (making them non-functional).  The very fact that a person needs to work for a ghilli, work harder to stay alive with it, and continue working harder than without it, to maintain it; it's rarity and scarcity; and the emotion that it invokes in other players would legitimise the Ghilli's purpose, functional or otherwise.

..//.

 

Not disagreeing at all q. S. Sachiel but .. first off (before "how a compass is supposed to be used")  I want to say the most important thing

 

Everyone has to remember that DayZ is an Anti-Game

Anti-Game was - and is -  the whole point since the start of the Mod... Anti-Game = you cant win, you cant gain levels, you cant learn skills, no quest, there's no plot and no destination - it was Made to be like that

You do what you like. In fact you have got to do what you like because there aint any direction or aim given you. = ZILTCH = . That's what this game is for and that's why it was made.

ANTI-GAME

 

Now, remember its an anti game and think "what is the loot for?"

Does anyone remember the razors and the toilet-paper loot lying around in the Mod ?... they didn't serve for anything at all.You could not cut with the razor or use it for anything at all - you couldn't burn the toilet roll or wipe your ass = 100% useless.

(heh, one joke I heard was, you wrap the toilet paper round your head to be a bandit)

 

Those loots were mixed in with a lot of random loot that might be useful for all kinds of stuff - and now is SA there is a much wider variety of loot.. ALL kinds of stuff, and plenty of the various loot can be used in different ways too. 

All this is in-game to HELP you do what you like - really tons of stuff (more than 1.5 million things you can interact with per server?)  - in fact ALL that exists in DayZ SA is a map and ton of stuff. There aint nothing else, no 'patient zero', no storyline, no objective, NO MEANING. Zero "REASON" to play. All the whole gameplay you have to totally make up for yourself.

 

EVERY BIT of that loot, map, stuff,  is completely useless to one player, and life-or-death useful to another player - it totally depends how you play.

 

If some guy wants an Ashwood Stick and a Bible so he can go around being Moses - you CANT say he's playing wrong. He's playing DayZ SA just the same-same as you are.

You will meet him one day.

 

OK - yes - if he could also hit people with the Bible as well as his Stick, or throw the Book at them, maybe that would be more interesting because it would be even one MORE thing that you can do in the game. So it's normal ATM that every time something is added/changed in the development, probably most of the players don't find any great use for it.. but maybe they will tomorrow...and other players already decide its a great addition..  maybe the netting you need to build your ghillie now, by tomorrow you can use it as camo netting to hide your tent ...

 

As for the compass - and any equipment in general - In ARMA 3 you should expect the compass to work because it's a military issue compass. Me here at home I have 3 compasses lying around that are all 3 pretty crap.. If I needed to use one in the mountains I'd feel much more secure if I checked the compass with the sun first, or checked it using mechanical watch (with hands)  I would never rely on it straight off (in fact I wouldn't believe with my life any-way, for any reason, it's normally just another check is all).  Plenty of shop store compasses are like that.. IRL you learn never to use one standing anywhere close to a car (first off) and then you find out how often they jam, how they point at the pistol in your pocket, or the nails in a wooden table (under your map) or an old door-hinge, or the pickaxe on your back etc, or often they can only give you a best of 10-15° around North even on a good day if you shake them around and average out 3 or 4 sightings .. so if the dayZ compass is a pretty crap compass - so what ?.. you found a cheap, crap compass, just like you can find a cheap plastic bottle.. do you really need a brand new 600 dollar military grade shielded compass with a digital readout ? 

.. you were washed up on a beach, you didnt drop in HALO with everything functioning, top quality, new and triple checked.

 

Here's an example ( I'm not criticizing you, you could be RIGHT for the reasons I'm trying to explain)  - Instead of complaining about the compass, why not be real pleased and happy that you never have to sight-in that random thrown-away automatic rifle you just found? HOW can you trust any gun to shoot straight when you just found it? = you CANT..

 

On the other hand, if you think an improved compass design in the game will make for a better game - for the players - (not just "easier" I mean "more fun, more immersion" )or you think guns should shoot way off center until you fix them, to make a better game for the players ("more fun, more immersion") - then that's very cool, propose that stuff. Hey - you can sugest 1 loot = "10 cent giveaway keyring compass", or 1 loot = 'boy scout cheap compass', and 1 loot = 'high grade military compass', or even 1 loot =  'wristwatch with mapless GPS direction finder', or 1 loot = 'a battery powered homing signal that always points to Green Mountain' ... whatever could make the game more fun for players who might probably play VERY differently to you.

 

For me ATM - I don't mind about guns that ALWAYS shoot straight wherever you find them, and telescopic sights that are always perfectly zeroed (sure, it's an unrealistic totally crazy idea, you just clip on a scope you found, takes 3 seconds, and wow, you can hit a fly 400 yards away?, .. nnnahh.... but I personally don't mind that ATM), but I DO think compasses that are difficult to use and maybe don't work to well, are pretty cool in fact.... 

 

So if you look from this angle you see there is nothing in the game that "does not serve it's purpose" -  it might be a pain in the neck, but some players will find it really useful exactly when others will throw it away or get pissed off, There's nothing ATM "not functional" except in the process of development (like the zombies for instance). Just remember this is an ANTI-GAME, and THAT IS the point of the game. The game is not to be the "most battle-ready" private. - but sure you can do that too if you want, there's space for everyone. Be warned though,if you fail "woodcraft and survival" you're not excused because your compass "didn"t work properly".

 

I'm beginning to think the "mil freaks" (I used to call them)  who wanted sighting-in of weapons as part of the game - maybe they were right - probably you SHOULD have to fire 10-20 shots from a long range weapon before you could even start hitting close to target. Easy to implement in-game: you fire twenty rounds and get message "your scope is ranged in". It's simplistic, but might add a bit to the gameplay? 

What you say about rarity and scarcity; and the emotion that it invokes in other players - is important in the game - specially for players who play differently to you. You are 100% right on that , q.S. - across the board not just for ghillies - it could also include a zeroed scope, for instance. Any way of living in DayZ evokes emotion in other players who live differently. And rarity depends how much you want it, right? I don't want an M4 so I really don't care how rare they are, so long as no one's shooting one at me. Then I get emotional.

 

And I DO think ghillie wearers should have some definite mid-range advantage from wearing that stuff... but how to do that, is open to discussion..

 

But the compass... do not blindly trust it dude, find out how to use it, what it's not good for, how it can sent you wrong,  And check it out first,  Line it on the sun at a known hour, or on the pole star. You don't know where it's been. It's a DayZ compass, not state of the art, it might have been lying on a metal garage rack, or on top of an engine block, or in a draw with a box of nails for the last 5 years...and the last owner probably paid 4 dollars for it anyway.

 

xx

Edited October 9, 2015 by pilgrim

[q.S Sachiel 470]

wall of text detected

respond in kind!

sir! tubes 3 though 8 are ready

FIRE!

yeah ok, i get where you're coming from.

If i found some beaten up gun lying around and put a few rounds through it, even if it's not sighted in i'm going to know the behaviour of the weapon somehow and can adjust that.

If i have a dodgy compass but hold it at strange angles, encouraging parallax, it doesn't matter if it's off by 10* i'm still using it wrong and won't be getting the best result i can from an important tool.

 

I haven't really used many scopes with gradations other than the PSO-1 and that was some time ago, but I've read here and there that the gradations and rangefinding built into the scope do not work as they should.  This is bad, but given enough practice i'm sure I could predict the behavior of the round at some offset or use the poorly/non-functioning gradations still as a prediction of ballistic behavior.  This may seem like i'm arguing against my own point (well couldn't you predict the offset of the compass?) well yeah i guess i could predict it, and at 5-10* error at 16km distance that's a big error but yeah i'm sure i could get away with it, but why do i need to hold it wrong?

 

Have you used a brunton compass before?  It's counter intuitive in that W is to the right and E is to the left.  If you look at it one way it gives you a bearing, if you rotate the compass 180* turning your body will result in the needle showing you how many degrees you have turned away from North...

I don't put my faith blindly in technology, but when i have a basic understanding of the theory behind it's operation, i intend to use that theory and the tool in the best possible way.

My comment with the compass was despite it being a powerful tool, the player is forced to use it in a handicapped fashion, and it cannot be combined with other information systems so as to realise the true potential of the item. 

 

I completely agree on the anti-game mentality, but ultimately (as in life) the player is bound by a specific set of rules.  I can't use the compass at an angle to the sun to signal people across the map with reflection, nor drag corrugated iron sheets, tin cans and broken bottles to construct an alarm system to deploy about my hideout...  The player is restricted by the rules and code of the game, and i'm saying that in certain aspects it's illogically restrictive.

yes yes alpha alpha, i'm just expanding and clarifying my position :)

 

Anti game or not, functional items should function, and the player should be able to operate them properly within the scope of the game.  If the compass is just to be a knick knack to carry around in your pocket for RP purposes, great, but don't give me the illusion that it's a functional item.  I don't even need the compass at this point, and more often that not i can tell you which way is north (even easier in real life, as is telling the time when outdoors).

 

I'm a studying geologist, and there's been several instances when i've taken an azimuth off rock outcrops and found that almost every time the bastard is pointing at me.  Luckily i'm intelligent enough to realise that yeah, this useful piece of equipment is useless if not used correctly, and it's attracted to the rock hammer fastened to my belt, but that doesn't mean i'm going to not use the compass.  When i burn the toast, i don't blame the toaster, but if the toaster only has one setting (burn toast) then why use it?

 

Arguably, the game isn't quite nuanced enough to allow for these specific tasks, but if you can't at least have the opportunity (eg with a pristine compass) to have functional items functioning properly, then the anti-game will be limited in it's ability to allow freedom to the players in the way that it boasts.

 

ultimately yeah, you can inspect it in game, or as others have said, put it in your toolbar, but i aint about that.  I do enjoy interacting with the world in DayZ

Edited October 9, 2015 by q.S Sachiel

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

respond in kind!

..//..

..//..yeah ok, i get where you're coming from.

..//..whydo i need to hold it wrong?

..//.. The player is restricted by the rules and code of the game, and i'm saying that in certain aspects it's illogically restrictive.

..//..yes yes alpha alpha, i'm just expanding and clarifying my position :)

..//..Anti game or not, functional items should function,

..//..don't give me the illusion that it's a functional item. 

 

the bastard is pointing at me.

 

 

q.S said: <<

..//..I completely agree on the anti-game mentality, but ultimately (as in life) the player is bound by a specific set of rules.

.. //.. My comment with the compass was despite it being a powerful tool, the player is forced to use it in a handicapped fashion,

..//..  it cannot be combined with other information systems so as to realise the true potential of the item. [sic - Pilgrim]

..//.. If the compass is just to be a knick knack to carry around in your pocket for RP purposes, great, but don't give me the illusion that it's a functional item.

..//.. the bastard is pointing at me.    [ok, this I understand- Pilgrim]

>>

 

I never had any probs with the in-game compass.. but... whatever...

 

A MORAL TALE

I used to play a levels game with armor defense points and different weapon hit points, and magic and potions and implants to charge yourself up to affect all those things

Was a fun game at first

Then more and more people started complaining : "I have level 17 and armor X and a 2.7 leg-brace and a +9% Rapidity implant and Weapon W and a x3 Strength spell once every 40 seconds, and one hit with W takes 5 seconds, and I get a 19% double strike chance each blow and this gives an average of 14.37 points per hit per second, and I was fighting a level 19 monster with armor xxx plus 8.4xTeeth and Occasional Bad Breath (3%x1.12) taking 11.3% off my x once every 6 seconds. So I should have had a 122% total certainty of winning in 56 seconds but I lost. "

The game got real boring. The designers took up ALL the COMPLAINTS and went through the game and re-set everything exactly, so the players who had a Scientific Calculator at home could worked out exactly what they needed. They went in the game and got it. They looked for the monsters with the exactly defined parameters, killed them, and went up a level.

The point is you can do that at home just with the calculator, you don't need the game any more.

After that point - Say you're level a 9 xxx with "aaa" - you WILL kill the level 11 "ppp" creature with "yyy" but you will NOT kill the level 12 creature. If you kill a level 8 creature you get very few points (100% easy) if you kill a level 6 you get zero points.

Before this was all set perfectly in place, the game was Interesting - It used to be that, on your way home alone through the Bad Forest (ooooooo! - you poor frightened level 11 in a level 16 area) suddenly a damned level 15 beast would jump on ya!. If you fought it like murder and screamed (in front of your keyboard, screamed IRL) you had an extremely exciting time, you'd go down fighting after a bloody and long fight, or you MIGHT just kill that Toothy Batspawn from hell... then you'd feel good!

But after the thousand of maths-based complaints from pissed off "levelers" - there was no longer ANY point fighting that beast - you loose. So you stand there and it kills you. And if you want to be a "good player" (why wouldn't you?) you will not be in that forest - you should only go to areas that are exactly 2 levels above your own where you fight creatures with your calculated 100% win statistics, ... and you do that day after day till you reach level 40... and then

.. and then .. er.. so what?

 

The Moral of the Tale

DayZ is an ANTI-GAME.. please do not mistakenly assume there is an "anti game mentality"... any player ATM can have have whatever mentality they like, BUT the DayZ Standalone IS an Anti-Game. When it stops being that Anti-Game, then players will have to conform to the "Standardized Dayz SA Game" and only the players with a "conforming mentality" will be left in the game.

... when and IF the players and the devs together manage to flatten it out totally into a standard game:

"yeah dude I'm an 18% Scope-Sniping soft-skill level +7 soft-skill zombie killer with +9 soft-skill Medical Knowledge and I'm starting to get soft-skill Combat Experience, with soft-skill Foreign Language Translation & Verbal Communication , and a soft-skill Honors Degree in Cleaning Diesel Injectors, so I can fit them faster, the truck uses less fuel, and zombies are 3% less likely to attack me if I (soft-skill) speak to them soothingly in their own language."

 

The Moral of the Moral

The moral of the moral is => the smoother the game becomes, meaning the less MESSY AND CRAZY it becomes, THEN more and more, you will find only one kind of player (a smaller and smaller spread of player styles) all doing the same kind of thing. Because everyone will know that ONE way of playing is factually, demonstrably, the best, the most efficient, the only sane way to play  - the same as everyone knows that t2+3 is numerically greater than 1+3.14159

(2+3)>(1+3.142)        Let's hope DayZ continues to employ Fuzzy Logic and not ancient pre-calculus math.

Therefore the ideal form of the game is 'Alpha' with continuing elements of Chaos.

As the predictability moves towards a higher percentage, the game is proportionately less interesting.

 

For an explanation of "compasses" and what is happening to "compasses and players" ATM in the game, read through the linked thread here - a wonderful example of "players in a game" (we do need BOTH, right, for either to exist).  Check it out - you see why it is critical that these problems continue in DayZ?

https://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/228517-the-compass-to-map-ratio/#entry2302302

 

xx

[KenoSkir88 181]

Compass works pretty good for me :/

[pilgrim* 3514]

- what I was saying about middle-distance ghillie suits in DayZ - how well they show up ?

spot the sniper

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2561773/Spot-snipers-artists-amazing-collection-photos-hidden-gunmen-blending-various-landscapes.html

the photos are from a Simon Menner project
 

[Bororm 1156]

I have a buddy who just started DayZ, brand new.  He's been using the compass.

 

It's not really useful for veteran players compared to the one in the mod (which ended up more for calling out specific enemy locations), but for strictly navigational purposes it serves the purpose.

I'm not sure how things go in the actual military, but I do kinda doubt people are constantly pulling out their compass to say the enemy is at X degrees specifically irl.