Vision nerfed yet again?!

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Yeah blurring things is just a no go for me. My eyes already does that. DOF etc effects are the first things I turn off from every game.

Be that as it may, the zoom function didn't make sense at all. Never did. AA is, whether you like it or not, how you achieve depth of field on a screen. Not by magically giving the player a free scope when they right click.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Be that as it may, the zoom function didn't make sense at all. Never did. AA is, whether you like it or not, how you achieve depth of field on a screen. Not by magically giving the player a free scope when they right click.

You're looking at completely the wrong way. It's not about achieving depth of field at all. Forget about "focusing" on an object for a second, it's not exactly what the zoom in feature is about. Playing a FPS game on a computer monitor is like like looking through a hole in a cardboard box IRL. You can't have the same resolution, size and FOV on a computer screen. If the default in game view was setup so the size of a man at 100 meters matches that of RL vision, you would end up with an extremely low FOV and wouldn't be able to see much around you. A person at 300 meters being "just as tiny is as in Battlefield" doesn't really mean anything and doesn't solve this issue.  It's not about focusing on an object, but rather the ability to see, get it? There is no magic scope, zoomed in view is what our character sees.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Rista

[Grimey Rick 3417]

You're looking at completely the wrong way. It's not about achieving depth of field at all. Forget about "focusing" on an object for a second, it's not exactly what the zoom in feature is about. Playing a FPS game on a computer monitor is like like looking through a hole in a cardboard box IRL. You can't have the same resolution, size and FOV on a computer screen. If the default in game view was setup so the size of a man at 100 meters matches that of RL vision, you would end up with an extremely low FOV and wouldn't be able to see much around you. A person at 300 meters being "just as tiny is as in Battlefield" doesn't really mean anything and doesn't solve this issue.  It's not about focusing on an object, but rather the ability to see, get it? There is no magic scope, zoomed in view is what our character sees.

Our ability to spot movement while unzoomed is perfectly fine. Speaking for myself, I can spot movement half a kilometer away without having to zoom in. That's how it is in real life, too. If I zoom in, I'm then able to potentially tell you how well geared that person is... at 500 meters! Completely ridiculous. I can make shots in DayZ using iron sights that I can't make in Battlefield in nearly identical situations. Doesn't make sense.

The zoom feature is nearly as powerful as the PU scope. Also completely ridiculous. There's literally no reason to have this "feature" in-game, as the developers seem to be realizing. They're slowly phasing it out, which is good.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Our ability to spot movement while unzoomed is perfectly fine. Speaking for myself, I can spot movement half a kilometer away without having to zoom in. That's how it is in real life, too. If I zoom in, I'm then able to potentially tell you how well geared that person is... at 500 meters! Completely ridiculous. I can make shots in DayZ using iron sights that I can't make in Battlefield in nearly identical situations. Doesn't make sense.

The zoom feature is nearly as powerful as the PU scope. Also completely ridiculous. There's literally no reason to have this "feature" in-game, as the developers seem to be realizing. They're slowly phasing it out, which is good.

It's not really about spotting movement and "fine" does not say anything about how it compares to real life vision. The fact is, at xxx meters in real life, you would be able to see much better and much more clear than you do in the "zoomed in" view in the game. Completely ridiculous eh?

[Inception. 9443]

Keep it civil please. No name calling. That's my job. 

[Parazight 1594]

I don't mind the vision nerf.

 

 I almost wish the nerf only applied to 3pp, seeing as how a person's peripheral vision is not realistic in 1pp.  You don't have the awareness in 1pp like you do in real life.  Not nerfing it here may be a way to mitigate that disadvantage.  Otherwise, whatevs.

[dashender7 78]

The point is to experiment. The game is in development - *now* is the time for us to do such things.

I understand if this upsets you, but it is exactly what you should expect.

 

Please continue to experiment with changes that make it harder for every random 12 year old "survivor" in DayZ's Chernarus to "gear up" with their full Gorka including helmet and matching visor, AK with 5 drum mags, and sniper rifle and camp out all day instead of doing their homework, picking off other players out of sheer boredom and inferiority complex.

 

Yes, but so far it seems like this experimentation has all gone one way... now is also the time for feedback. Someone should take out a rangefinder, sit on a hill and make some notes on the details and apparent size of objects at different ranges...

 

 

Many of us are glad the "experimentation has all gone one way" - that being to make DayZ less a military PvP game and more a player interaction (i.e. interaction besides shoot everything that moves) zombie survival game.  The player should not feel in total command of his surroundings all the time with eagle eye zoom - I'm so tired of seeing guys in their videos quickly changing their FOV for ridiculous zoom to snipe.

 

There are already half a million shoot 'em up games out there.  We don't need to buff out every camping sniper - talk about ruining a game.  Getting one shotted by an unseen kid camping all day with his buffed out sniper zoom and ghillie should not be what this game is about. 

 

I'm glad the devs seem to be trying every possible mechanic to take it in another direction.  Please continue to explore "civilianizing" this game so that it doesn't just feel like a bunch of wanna be super soldiers running around trying to be CS:GO with a big map.

[sachad 1016]

I don't mind the change. It'll take some getting used to, but that's the game innit? Adapt or perish!

[p4triot 207]

100 meters.

 

I don't see how you can say the zoom is "unrealistic". There's no other way to simulate human vision on a monitor. You either get too low FOV or too low resolution. Calling the zoom "unrealistic" is like saying the inventory screen is unrealistic because there's no floating holograph in real life. I'd rather my character can see details an appropriate distance, which is why BISIm put this feature into their military training simulators in the first place.

Also, given this ...

... I should think you understand the game has to give us certain features to compensate for the fact it's trying to present an authentic, detailed world through a 1080p monitor and headphones.

 

Finally someone said it. Can't believe 9 out of 10 posters doesnt get this...

 

[p4triot 207]

I just don't think it emulates anything apart from zooming in further than reality.

 

It's a crutch people have become used to and now rationalize it's existence. It makes no sense.

 

If you wanted to emulate aiming down sights then make the stuff clearer not bigger.

 

It's a feature added to the ArmA simulator for government military training. And believe, even with all the realism-over-anything fanboys we have here, goverment military traning sure are even more obsessed in having the most realistic simulator possible. So, if they allowed that feature, you can be sure it has sense.

 

But, even for the dumb, the reason is quite simple. Unless you play on a 40" inch screen less than 30cm from your face, sizes of objects in the screen will be smaller than the same object at same distance IRL (use steering wheels as reference when driving, or someones face at a fixed distance). So, compensating for that is a MUST.

 

P.S: for the smartasses, having the game always zoomed in would render an even poorer peripherical vision as we already have, which makes up to 60% of the visual information we recieve IRL and not having it in a game is a huge detriment for awareness. (Thats also why the white small dots the original mod had, another feature from the simulator).

 

P.S.2: yes, for those of you who doesnt know. BIS was originally created as a military traning software developer company. Hence the simulator aspect of all its games.

 

[Coheed_IV 381]

Battlefield 4 maps, although not nearly as large as Chernarus don't have a zoom button, and for all intents and purposes, someone 300 meters out in that game is just as tiny as someone an equal distance out in DayZ. If you only have a 1X RDS/iron sights, you're probably not going to hit him. You need a scope of some sort, right?

Holy god, this thread is getting interesting. Shocked people don't understand this. The games your talking about use optics and sniper rifles at 200 meters! 300 meters is within range of iron sights with many rifles.

 

The best way to explain the mechanic is that you are always zoomed out, pushing the button returns your vision to realistic levels. But, with a very narrow FOV. The combination forms the most realistic vision in games. You've got to understand this, or Gews will run off and cry.....

[Grimey Rick 3417]

-snip-

You can try to justify it all you want. First of all, why do you feel that things need to be to scale? It's a video game. Nothing will ever be to scale.

The entire right click zoom feature is a crutch. You can spot people just fine without it. Things don't need to be bigger than they are in your default field of vision unless you acquire a scope or binoculars.

You want to simulate the human eye on a screen? Okay. Make things you're not currently focused on blurry. Make things you are currently focused on sharper.

This game will never replicate proper field of view/depth of view until you're hooked up to a virtual reality simulator WHICH THIS ENGINE WAS DESIGNED AROUND, right? When they stopped using RV, they tried, and succeeded, selling it to the public. I'm sure somewhere along the way features were removed and added in order to make games playable on a desktop computer.

This stupid zoom feature is one of those things. It literally makes zero sense.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Holy god, this thread is getting interesting. Shocked people don't understand this. The games your talking about use optics and sniper rifles at 200 meters! 300 meters is within range of iron sights with many rifles.

The best way to explain the mechanic is that you are always zoomed out, pushing the button returns your vision to realistic levels. But, with a very narrow FOV. The combination forms the most realistic vision in games. You've got to understand this, or Gews will run off and cry.....

I get it. It's just a clunky, unnecessary feature that has no other purpose than trying to give virtual reality simulation to a random guy sitting at home on a 19" monitor. It doesn't work. It's ugly. It's basically a jimmy-rigged way of trying to accomplish something that isn't possible without thousands of dollars worth of hardware.

My suggestion is that we keep it simple, make it prettier, and move on? So many other games do it. Why does DayZ have to be the game that doesn't? Then, these same people argue that we keep 3PP -- mind, these are the same people crying realism in every other thread.

Can't have it both ways.

[Coheed_IV 381]

I can make shots in DayZ using iron sights that I can't make in Battlefield in nearly identical situations. Doesn't make sense.

Sorry cant let this go either. Or maybe your right battlefield doesn't make sense.

[Coheed_IV 381]

So many other games do it. Why does DayZ have to be the game that doesn't?

One of the reasons the mod because so popular, is because it wasn't like other games. The scale of the RV engine is its greatest strength, I'm ruined from most other games, I cant stand other games. Giving a virtual reality simulation is not unnecessary, its what it is built to do, and has proven over many years to do so.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Coheed_IV

[aasand 92]

Odd. When I look through the ironsights of my own guns, the objects that I'm shooting at don't magically get any bigger. 

 

My eye doesn't have built in zoom. Why would your character? That's the negative aspect about irons...no zoom. 

Real life doesn't have 1920x1080. In a game we need some way that resembles focus since we will never get real life graphics.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Also lower zoom means it's harder to aim and you really need a good mouse or otherwise you'll miss everything easily because even small movements are dam huge and with a bad mouse you can't hit that pixel.

[hekp 223]

 

Also lower zoom means it's harder to aim and you really need a good mouse or otherwise you'll miss everything easily because even small movements are dam huge and with a bad mouse you can't hit that pixel.

 a bigger screen more likely.I know i wont see shit on my 2nd 1366x768 screen :D

Edited May 31, 2015 by halp

[8bit_Survivor 93]

Ok, I'm sold on the idea. The wider view is to simulate peripheral vision while the zoom is to help you focus. While you don't have 'zoom' in real life your brain does have the ability to discard information from your peripheral vision in order to achieve greater focus and detail from a desired area or target. I was kind of on the fence before but I think I'm sold on the concept now. Perhaps the zoom was a bit drastic prior but removing it all together is a bit much.

Also the only arguments against seem to be 'it don't make sense' and 'my eye balls don't have zoom'. Not all that compelling when you read the arguments from those defending the game mechanic.

As previously stated this is alpha. I say we flip all the game mechanics on their head at least once if for know other reason than to see what happens!

[Bororm 1156]

You want to simulate the human eye on a screen? Okay. Make things you're not currently focused on blurry. Make things you are currently focused on sharper.

 

 

You keep saying this but you realize that already happens naturally right?  Read text on this forum and pay attention to your peripheral even like people's avatars, you're already focusing on one thing and everything else is blurry as a result.  That already happens in game as well.  I dunno if you record, but I can't tell you how many times I am focused on something and die, only to watch what happened and see some guy plainly obvious that I missed.  You don't need to blur edges to simulate peripherals, it's already in effect.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Bororm

[freethink 984]

It's a feature added to the ArmA simulator for government military training. And believe, even with all the realism-over-anything fanboys we have here, goverment military traning sure are even more obsessed in having the most realistic simulator possible. So, if they allowed that feature, you can be sure it has sense.

 

But, even for the dumb, the reason is quite simple. Unless you play on a 40" inch screen less than 30cm from your face, sizes of objects in the screen will be smaller than the same object at same distance IRL (use steering wheels as reference when driving, or someones face at a fixed distance). So, compensating for that is a MUST.

 

P.S: for the smartasses, having the game always zoomed in would render an even poorer peripherical vision as we already have, which makes up to 60% of the visual information we recieve IRL and not having it in a game is a huge detriment for awareness. (Thats also why the white small dots the original mod had, another feature from the simulator).

 

P.S.2: yes, for those of you who doesnt know. BIS was originally created as a military traning software developer company. Hence the simulator aspect of all its games.

 

 

Same military that demanded a third person view that allows wall peeking? Honestly, although some of the facts you state are true your conclusion that the army demanded a zoom in function is a major leap.

 

Interesting conversation though and I have to say I always give weight to Gews opinion and my views aren't set in stone. It's not something I've considered as much as others. Also, I appreciate the posts explaining that it's not zooming in to 110% but 100%.

 

All that said, I have zero issue with the way it is in exp right now apart from it's such a small zoom as being almost redundant.

[Coheed_IV 381]

Also lower zoom means it's harder to aim and you really need a good mouse or otherwise you'll miss everything easily because even small movements are dam huge and with a bad mouse you can't hit that pixel.

Agreed, you'll miss at range that the weapon is capable of. I like using this shooting range (by Murcielago) in arma2 with in ACE2 :thumbsup:

You can go in there and use no zoom, or even double tap (-), check your accuracy, understand distance, and understand how it applies to real life with that weapon. It helps understand how they are trying to simulate realistic weaponry. The cool part is, that it isn't easy, it takes practice. Arma3 is even better, each weapon or bullet is different, practicing with a specific weapon pays off.

I'm not a military or weapon type guy, I just love the complexity and depth of BI games. I really think that is part of the DayZ appeal, people just don't know it.

 

My buddy that I play with was in the army. He's doesn't get into understanding the game like I do, but he just rolls with it and loves it. Before he had a arma specific pc, we would play battlefield, remembering this makes me nauseous.

 

EDIT*

Changing the zoom could make encounters more interesting (closer range, more suppression, longer). I'm still on the fence about what's right for DayZ. But, I'm talking myself out of current level .57. I can see .54 maybe.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Coheed_IV

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Before he had a arma specific pc, we would play battlefield, remembering this makes me nauseous.

What's wrong with Battlefield? Very fun game, much more challenging online than DayZ/Arma. I'm confused.

[freethink 984]

inb4 go back to cod :D

[Coheed_IV 381]

What's wrong with Battlefield? Very fun game, much more challenging online than DayZ/Arma. I'm confused.

Challenging can mean many things, sorry not going there. It's is fun. But, its doesn't stimulate enough brain activity to be more than just a "fun" game for awhile. No depth unless you've got the Neanderthal gene. I really think the in depth, "behind the veil" sim aspects of the mod or SA, is what will separate dayz from the long list of survival crap right now.

 

Nothing wrong with the devs tinkering though. Just helps me understand what I like more.