Has a lack of UI actually decreased immersion in DayZ?

[scriptfactory 620]

Let me start off by saying that I currently have 635 hours in-game and play on 3 seperate private shards, one of which is for PvP and is 3PP:Off. I do think that DayZ does a lot of things well and would like to compliment the DayZ Mod community, Rocket and the rest of the BIS devs on the wonderful product they have all contributed to. I think the DayZ environment is somewhat reminiscent of a recently post-apocalyptic world. I build a sense of attachment to my gear through the exhaustive, multi-session looting process. This gear attachment translates into some kind of character attachment. It definitely contributes to my sense of being present in the game.
 

But I do feel that much more work could be done as far as the user interface is concerned to improve the immersive experience.

So I recently read this thesis from some dudes that work @ EA DICE: http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/111921.pdf

 

They evaluated a bunch of first-person shooters and attempted to quantify "immersion". Their findings and comments from a game designer friend (that played the game briefly during the Christmas holidays at my suggestion) made me realize what I have disliked about DayZ since I started playing it. The distinct lack of expressive user interface elements poorly communicates my avatar's experience to me.

 

In other words, shit is confusing. So confusing that the transient state of immersion often eludes me.

 

The authors write: "For the purpose of this thesis, immersion will be defined as; moments during play when the players access their real world perception, reasoning skills or emotions (the primary frameworks of the player) to play the game or voluntarily adopt the game world as a primary world and reason from the characters point of view, rather than having to refer directly to the rules of the game. ... From this definition three distinct types of immersion factors can be described, immersion concerning reasoning, immersion concerning perception and immersion concerning emotions."

 

Well, emotional immersion is taken care of through the permadeath mechanic. It sucks to lose a huge investment. When seeing another player you immediately feel the need to rob/shoot him to take his loot, shoot him to take his time investment (griefing) or avoid him to keep your time investment safe.

 

DayZ also does a fair job of immersion through reasoning if you solely judge the game based on the ability to loot and shoot. If the DayZ game designers avoid improving and enriching gameplay mechanics past the point they are now then the job is done well. We know which houses we should loot. We know through meta-gaming where the best weapons are. We know how to kill zombies most effectively. There are no world containers or destroyable objects so there is currently no reason to even check these objects. The DayZ ruleset is understood by experienced players... new player have a bunch of problems but that could be fixed by a tutorial or sandbox testing ground of some kind.

 

But there are quite a few problems with immersion through perception, in my opinion. Items falling under the ground. Inconsistent loot spawn mechanics where items will pop into existent around you sometimes. The weekly wipe during maintenance is completely inconsistent with persistence. Items that don't really fit in the game world, like PAYDAY masks, teddy bears but no other toys, NATO military gear when no other NATO equipment/buildings/bases are present. Items that aren't able to be picked up even though they look like they should be able to (e.g. those piles of garbage.) I hope most of these problems will be fixed by the end of beta.

 

Now we have immersion of perception. The authors write: "In order to manifest player presence within the game world, the player must be allowed to elicit information as he or she would make use of perception in a real world scenario. ... Because of this, it is fair to argue that a UI element strengthening the player’s in-game perception can increase player immersion. By bonding the player closer to the perception of his or her avatar, a player presence within the game world can be manifested resembling human presence in the real world. ... Diegesis seems to be of less importance when considering perceptual immersion. ... In other words, UI elements strengthening the player avatar perceptual link can also strengthen player immersion whilst still digressing from any sense of realism, fiction or UI transparency."

 

This is where I believe a mistake has been made by the DayZ game designers. They have simply avoided any kind of meaningful UI, attempting to rely strictly on in-game world elements, aural and "meta-perceptive" elements, and the inventory screen to convey extremely complex player information like health, hydration status, sickness, temperature and injuries.

 

The authors continue with: "It feels relevant to distinguish internal perception from external. The most obvious loss of perception when transferred into the body of an avatar in a game might be the loss of perception regarding ones internal status, such as the level of health. However, there is also need to make up for perception regarding the world external to the avatars body, such as the loss of direction and orientation that might appear as argued above."

 

They have completely avoided any kind of UI to identify players effectively giving all players a case of prosopagnosia. I meet people on RP servers and see them again 5 minutes later and they no longer recognize me. This is a huge break in immersion for me. Something as simple as a configurable hex markers, like in Arma 3, that could be disabled would even improve this situation. While so many players complain about 3PP:On as an immersion breaker it actually can help some people have a better sense of spatial perception. I know when I am hiding in a bush in real life, but I can't figure it out with 3PP:Off. When playing on Hardcore servers I often see bad players that think they are hiding in bushes or tents but they are visible clear as day.

TL;DR: I feel the UI (not HUD) needs a bunch of help and no one really talks about it. I wish more focus was put on it.

[hekp 223]

Few things i cannot interract with wont ruin my dayz experience.Neither will current bugs.I think the whole game athmosphere is developing in the right direction. I also must be one of the rare people who like the whole clumsy 1pp. As far as the HUD/UI goes i wish it was completely gone. If you wanna ruin dayz in one move..placing player icons above their heads would be that one move.

 

 

They evaluated a bunch of first-person shooters and attempted to quantify "immersion"

This actualy made me laugh.They made cheap fps shooters and attempted to quantify money.

 

EA would realease dayz half a year ago, selling 0.52 as a brand new premium DLC.

 

v3s not included, thats another DLC.

 

Shut down servers after 2 years

 

Release Dayz 2 (dayz beta) -prepurchase with premium & pso scope DLC & FOV setting DLC

Edited January 11, 2015 by halp

[blackberrygoo 1416]

Ya I don't agree with this at all , first person shooter fanatic critics from dice decided to pretend like they knew how to make an immersive survival game , immersion doesn't come with HUDS or UIs , immersion comes because you actually feel like you're in the game ... And what confuses you about the current system ?

If you're hungry , you're inventory (and text messages in the bottom left) tell you you are hungry (because we obviously can't have our real stomachs rumble when our in game characters are hungry, so this is the next best thing). Everything is pretty self explanatory and like said above adding tags to people or more UI all over the place just destroys immersion completely. I play on first person only Servers and I always can tell when my charater Is sticking out of hiding spots , simply because I know how long/ wide my character is (mostly because I only play on first person view so I get used to the feeling , switching between first and third person is what really disorientates you).

In my opinion the only thing I would ever want to change that helps people "differentiate" from each other is customizable faces .. That way you can recognize certain faces , but honestly immersion is going down a good path in this game , to be completely immersed we need sound effects of movement, spatial awareness (which again happens when you don't disorient yourself by switching from 1pp to 3pp) and as much realism as possible , adding more HUD or UI or tags over heads would just be a horrible move for such a beautifully immersive and realistic game .

[scriptfactory 620]

This is actually addressed in the thesis. Different players experience immersion in different ways.

I'm not saying more HUD elements need to be added. I'm saying that the user interface needs some attention, in my opinion. The user interface includes visual, aural and haptic feedback.

Edited January 11, 2015 by scriptfactory

[soulfirez 901]

There should be LESS ui in my opinion , remove hunger thirst bars add in stomach noises dry rasping noises. Health doesnt need to be a bar either just lock the post processing effect of screen blur when hurt by shock ( yes lock it so you cant turn it off and make the game easier for yourself but the other visuals of post processing can be optional for pc performance and prefrence) value and leave the grey screen with lowering blood.

 

EA is the last company i would want BIS taking ANY POINTERS AT ALL FROM.

[blackberrygoo 1416]

This is actually addressed in the thesis. Different players experience immersion in different ways.

We do , but the direction of the game in terms of immersion isn't governed by the different scopes of immersion that all these different people want .. Basically the developers have an ultra realist view of the game and anything that adds extra tags or UI will just go against that viewpoint , sure it will help the handful of people like yourself that don't want to be so immersed , but for the rest of us that would be a total game ruiner .. and id say if you want a crazy HUD and more UI and tags over strangers heads, then to check out h1z1 in four days , as that game openly advertises a more arcade-like gameplay (not much immersion because of tags , huge crafting menus that should be more IMpromtpu, and other strange things that a normal human eye would never see).

I guess there could be some servers that choose to have some options like name plates and advanced UI options but honestly I would rather see the opposite : hardcore servers that introduce even more realism , like headgear obstructing vision or not being able to join a specific server for a set amount of hours after dying to create more of an immersive and realistic feel .

I ultimately feel like this game needs to have one direction for immersion (the direction it's going basically), and not try to please everyone , at least not now because there are plenty of other things to work on but when we get out of alpha I'm sure there will be talk of "dulled down realism servers" especially for the more casual crowd that's definitely going to be playing this game when it gets to beta (as there will be little to no frustrating game breaking bugs that usually deter the "casual" crowd ).

Edit : I like soul firez idea , remove the hunger and thirst indicators for sounds like an empty stomach gurgling , or your character smacking his lips when he's thirsty , but OP , what exactly about the user interface don't you like ?

Edited January 11, 2015 by Grapefruit kush

[scriptfactory 620]

No one read my TLDR...

[attorney1977 311]

Shame they didn't explore "killing immersion through spamming retarded on-screen messages" in their thesis

 

suppression assist 10

last man in squad

killed by [x-killah-x]

spot bonus 25

squad spot bonus 25

squad suppression assist 10

and so on....

 

You can't quantify immersion.  It's like trying to quantify anger or happiness.  An "immersive" game is one that sucks you in because you forget you're sat in a room playing a game.

Their thesis falls apart if you transpose it to any game that isn't FPS.  Tetris and Chess?  No on-screen UI as such and totally absorbing.

 

UI should only tell you what you NEED to know.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[therandomredstone 432]

I didn't read through the OP's post all the way. I am too lazy. This game is progressing very effectively. It sure as hell isn't perfect the way it is now. But this game is a simulator. Not a Call of Duty game. If a player can't remember you when he sees you 5 minutes later, that is his problem. It will get him killed. But name tags and such wont be added in. The game is fine. Don't worry about it, just play it.

[scriptfactory 620]

DayZ spams us with onscreen messages. Also, in Battlefield it has a specific purpose, showing player progression to help improve attachment to the game.

Tetris and Chess both have a user interface. So does DayZ. While a user interface can include a HUD, all UIs don't have a HUD.

All of these points are addressed in the thesis. It is quite good.

Edited January 11, 2015 by scriptfactory

[hekp 223]

 

EA is the last company i would want BIS taking ANY POINTERS AT ALL FROM.

I agree. i was like, shocked when i read "EA" :lol:

 

Codemasters and the whole OPF tm thingy are like a perfect example how to ruin good games when you have a greedy publisher. Or C&C series if you wanna talk EA.

Im just so glad BiS went on their own.

Edited January 11, 2015 by halp

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

The topic was already beaten to death and trumped.  No tags, no identification, none of that stuff.  It's done, beaten and gone.

[scriptfactory 620]

I agree. i was like, shocked when i read "EA" :lol:

They are just two dudes. It's only about 100 pages. Read their work before you criticize them.

[Killawife 599]

I'd be happy if they just implemented some way of knowing what or who killed me. Its the crappiest thing when you walk around and then "you are dead" with no explanation of why to this happened whatsoever

[MagneticToast 102]

I honestly miss the icons from the mod. It makes sense that they were there, because it was what you were "feeling" There are some things you just can't take away for the sake of "realism" because a game will never be truly realistic. Ever.

[attorney1977 311]

DayZ spams us with onscreen messages. Also, in Battlefield it has a specific purpose, showing player progression to help improve attachment to the game.

Tetris and Chess both have a user interface. So does DayZ. While a user interface can include a HUD, all UIs don't have a HUD.

All of these points are addressed in the thesis. It is quite good.

 

 

It only "improves attachment" to 13 year olds.  Player progression is in the player stats screen so why duplicate the info in front of my crosshair while I'm playing the game?  That's my opinion though and I'll take that over Dices.

 

The messages they put all over the screen are there to massage your ego and serve no particular purpose.  If anything, they ruin certain parts of the game (you unrealistically always know when you have killed someone etc)

 

Re: chess & tetris.  You don't need a ui for those.  A lot of versions of it put pointless ui in to make it look prettier.  You can still play without ui. Read my point about if it is NEEDED or not.

 

Re: Thesis.  It's okay.  They're obv clever guys but I don't lend too much credence to it as it's opinion-based.  You should google them as well.  Neither of them works for a (big FPS) games studio.  One makes and sells apps, and the other makes and sells apps.

http://www.hellothere.se/about-us/people/erik-fagerholt-interaction-designer/

https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Magnus+Lorentzon&hl=en_GB

 

As previous poster mentioned, your requests seem confused.  You want more immersion but also want names magically hanging over peoples heads?...

 

[scriptfactory 620]

Re: chess & tetris.  You don't need a ui for those.  A lot of versions of it put pointless ui in to make it look prettier.  You can still play without ui. Read my point about if it is NEEDED or not.

 

In information technology, the user interface (UI) is everything designed into an information device with which a human being may interact.

http://searchsoa.techtarget.com/definition/user-interface

 

As previous poster mentioned, your requests seem confused.  You want more immersion but also want names magically hanging over peoples heads?...

 

I never asked for floating nameplates. I asked for player recognition elements, in whichever form the devs decided to implement them. My post is about lack of focus on the in-game user interface rather than lack of a HUD of floating name tags. Read my original post. People were just making strawman arguments instead of addressing my points.

[attorney1977 311]

In BI games this is UI editor:

 

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/User_Interface_Editor_%28Arma_2%29

 

So any displays you look at or dialogs you interact with are UI.

 

This includes (but is not limited to) messages, menus, on-screen pictures.

 

HUD is a term misappropriated from the military.

 

If you cannot recognise players, then why not ask for customisable faces or something practical.  Why link to this thesis about on screen UI?  How do you think it is applicable to "player recognition elements"?

 

Your initial post is very vague.  If you are strawman, it is only because you have set yourself up for it using a FPS thesis as basis for your arguments.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Horde

[TheFarm 158]

In the most recent dev blog they made it pretty clear that the reworked ui/inventory and controls are coming up, but did you see the part about group identification OP? This is where i have to agree with you, talking to someone then 5 min later being unsure if that guy is the same one you were just talking to has been a huge immersion breaker imo.

I would prefer if they had some sort of unique face generation system but that is nearly impossible so honestly id be happy with whatever the devs come up with, even nameplates.

[sachad 1016]

I'd be happy if they just implemented some way of knowing what or who killed me. Its the crappiest thing when you walk around and then "you are dead" with no explanation of why to this happened whatsoever

 

If you're dead, you're dead. Who cares who did it? The only one you should be upset with is yourself for putting yourself in a position to get killed in the first place.

[B4GEL 175]

"immersion will be defined as; moments during play when the players access their real world perception, reasoning skills or emotions (the primary frameworks of the player) to play the game or voluntarily adopt the game world as a primary world and reason from the characters point of view, rather than having to refer directly to the rules of the game"

For me, the lack of UI does exactly this. When i play I'm not thinking about how much blood i have or how many damage points 9mm does, The designers have done a good job of removing from view these 'gamey' mechanics. I can forgive some obscurantism if it feels more realistic overall.

Its an interesting discussion to have but I think the audio visual representation of the players senses are not anything like what they will be in 1.0 and its wrong to judge the concept overly harshly based on what we have now. I'm a fan of the status messages in the bottom left (gives the game an oldschool rougelike feel) but by the end of development i expect them to be almost completely replaced by sounds or visual effects.

The difficulty with identifying people is a valid concern but hopefully with many more character models and more clothing options along with 'check pulse' it will get easier to identify people, if everyone stopped sprinting everywhere that would help too.

[-Gews- 7443]

When it comes to things like "AKs have no firing mode selection because we decline to show what firing modes you're set to" or "your 3D compass is clumsy to use and inferior to the 2D ones in previous Bohemia games" then yes.

But 3PP and nametags... ech.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

"immersion will be defined as; moments during play when the players access their real world perception, reasoning skills or emotions (the primary frameworks of the player) to play the game or voluntarily adopt the game world as a primary world and reason from the characters point of view, rather than having to refer directly to the rules of the game"

For me, the lack of UI does exactly this. When i play I'm not thinking about how much blood i have or how many damage points 9mm does, The designers have done a good job of removing from view these 'gamey' mechanics. I can forgive some obscurantism if it feels more realistic overall.

Its an interesting discussion to have but I think the audio visual representation of the players senses are not anything like what they will be in 1.0 and its wrong to judge the concept overly harshly based on what we have now. I'm a fan of the status messages in the bottom left (gives the game an oldschool rougelike feel) but by the end of development i expect them to be almost completely replaced by sounds or visual effects.

The difficulty with identifying people is a valid concern but hopefully with many more character models and more clothing options along with 'check pulse' it will get easier to identify people, if everyone stopped sprinting everywhere that would help too.

It's not hard to identify anyone.  The problem is that everyone chooses to run soldier mode and have the exact same gear.  Every video I see of clans showing off how leet they are shows them wearing same vests, same backpacks, same M4's, same helmets, same jackets and same pants.   There is so much variety of clothing to wear but again, people choose to play as the same character as everyone else.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Caboose187

[Avant-Garde 229]

Thats a pretty nice article OP, thanks for the read man!

[rickyriot 1009]

This is the running before we can walk scenario here. The UI and the interaction with your character are still in very early stages of development. In the mod you had the ability to know how loud you were being and how visible you were, along with your characters health status.

 

Clearly immersion, from my point of view, is not improved by having UI to define these things. Simply through logic should you be able to tell how noisy your actions are, or how visible you are. These still need to be worked out quite a bit as the sounds are one of the least developed aspects - or at least it would seem that way - and the zombies do seem to posses a stunning level of awareness of your presence some distance away. 

 

As for your health, it's clearly just placeholders that are in use just now. Ideally you would want your character to react differently depending on their physical wellbeing rather than having [hunger] tags in the inventory. Coughing or clearing your throat when thirsty, stomach rumbling when hungry, etc. Bleeding should be reflected by both the visual aspect as well an audible cue.

 

The problem, of course, is that dividing line between the real world and the virtual one. How do you square the circle of having pain if you don't physically feel pain. A difficult one indeed, however I am certainly of the mindset that it should come from in game cues that are more subtle than a UI.