The 'war on snipers'

[Evil Minion 943]

Because the sway is just too ridicolous.

Its basically handgun sway - and the scope makes it worse because of the zoom factor. Also most attachments should not affect dispersion but sway, recoil and dexterity (can't repeat this enough).

 

Still not as bad as everyone wants it to be and also far less luck based - you can see the sway, you can adjust to it. I still agree that there should be other factors like wind, weather etc.

[Etherimp 1323]

I am not going to argue this point with you any more, and I'm not sure why you're lying so bold-facedly. Maybe you think you will convince some people too lazy to go check for themselves.

 

 

Or maybe you're inexperienced and you're talking out of your ass. I have 700 hours. Try taking my advice.. Unless you're just here to bitch.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

The reticle does not stand perfectly still even while healthy (no injuries, healthy status) and holding your breath. That's my biggest issue with it. Let it drift around a bit when you're not ready to shoot, but holding your breath should bring it almost perfectly still while crouched/prone without a bipod. With a bipod it's a no brainer -- it should always be perfectly still.

[Etherimp 1323]

The reticle does not stand perfectly still even while healthy (no injuries, healthy status) and holding your breath. That's my biggest issue with it. Let it drift around a bit when you're not ready to shoot, but holding your breath should bring it almost perfectly still while crouched/prone without a bipod. With a bipod it's a no brainer -- it should always be perfectly still.

 

 

I think "Perfectly" is a little hard to quantify.. but it stands still enough for me to train it on a target and accurately hit that target if I press "hold breath" right before firing. Are you using mouse2 or are you using another key to hold breath? Because if you're using Mouse2, that could be the problem.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I think "Perfectly" is a little hard to quantify.. but it stands still enough for me to train it on a target and accurately hit that target if I press "hold breath" right before firing. Are you using mouse2 or are you using another key to hold breath? Because if you're using Mouse2, that could be the problem.

 

I use LCTRL to hold my breath, zooming in with MOUSE2. I can snipe just fine up to around 600 meters, but after that it's pretty much a crapshoot unless they stand still for more than a few seconds.

[General Zod 1118]

The reticle does not stand perfectly still even while healthy (no injuries, healthy status) and holding your breath. That's my biggest issue with it. Let it drift around a bit when you're not ready to shoot, but holding your breath should bring it almost perfectly still while crouched/prone without a bipod. With a bipod it's a no brainer -- it should always be perfectly still.

Nor does it in real life. There is always some sway. 

[Etherimp 1323]

I use LCTRL to hold my breath, zooming in with MOUSE2. I can snipe just fine up to around 600 meters, but after that it's pretty much a crapshoot unless they stand still for more than a few seconds.

 

 

Yeah, I experience about the same.. Also depends on the FOV you're using. If you lower your FOV down to the minimum (which you should for long range sniping), then the sway will be more obvious. Above 600 meters or so it's really difficult due to Travel-Time... The sway plays some role obviously as your target is so small any amount of sway could mean the difference between a headshot and a complete miss.

 

 

Btw - That artwork on your Profile Avatar is fucking great.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Etherimp

[Rauchsauger 94]

Have not noticed a problem myself, when I play on my own I hunt snipers (with a score of 7 to date), mostly around Cherno / Balota, the last one a few days ago in Elektro.

 

When playing in my group we always have two snipers watching from afar as the rest of the team go in to loot, this has proved to be efficient.

I will take a closer look and see what all the fuss is about but to be honest as I said above I have not noticed anything that I would call problematic.

 

it is problematic, that you have the current sway when you rest your gun on something...

If you are prone or kneel in front of a parapet there should be only minimal sway.

It should be possible to rest the gun on a table inside a room for example.

 

So all in all they should make sniping harder by implementing it right (ballistics, weather, wind, realistic sighting of a rifle) instead of going the absolute lazy way.

[DURRHUNTER 597]

First of all, this isnt Balotafield 4 like the mod was. Hip firing AS50s? ha nope.

[huf757 82]

I love to snipe.  But I also like that sniping is not like it was in the MOD. Where anyone could pick up an m107, AS-50 or KSVK and drop people from 1000  meters without any problem heck with AS-50 they were dropping them at 1200+ meters with no problem at all.  All that needed to be adjusted was bullet travel time if target was moving.  That is not realistic. In real world everyday people would not be able to do this, which I feel they are trying to simulate.  Someone with knowledge and practice can compensate for these small variations realistic or not.

[Rauchsauger 94]

I love to snipe.  But I also like that sniping is not like it was in the MOD. Where anyone could pick up an m107, AS-50 or KSVK and drop people from 1000  meters without any problem heck with AS-50 they were dropping them at 1200+ meters with no problem at all.  All that needed to be adjusted was bullet travel time if target was moving.  That is not realistic. In real world everyday people would not be able to do this, which I feel they are trying to simulate.  Someone with knowledge and practice can compensate for these small variations realistic or not.

 

They simulate nothing.

They just added sway and random dispersion instead of simulating.

[Evil Minion 943]

They just added sway and random dispersion instead of simulating.

Also they added an AK-101 instead of an AK-74 variant. Oh wait...

 

Sway does indeed simulate people not being able to hold their weapon perfectly still. And random dispersion is just good enough to simulate the many small effects that cause... dispersion.

[General Zod 1118]

They simulate nothing.

They just added sway and random dispersion instead of simulating.

Sway is realistic and thus a part of simulation. But there shouldn't be any dispersion. 

 

Sway does indeed simulate people not being able to hold their weapon perfectly still. And random dispersion is just good enough to simulate the many small effects that cause... dispersion.

 

There is no such thing as zero sway outside of hollywood. There is a deference between current random dispersion and one cause by factors such as wind. Which is a problem, we do not have real effects so they add exaggerated random ones. You can compensate for wind to a certain degree if you can feel it, it's strength and direction, you can't compensate for randomness. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by General Zod

[gibonez 3633]

There is no war on snipers.

 

simply put there is just a bunch of unfinished game mechanics that in turn make the easiest way to play the game a little annoying at the moment.

 

A unfinished damage model that makes regular clothing soak up damage, a unrefined sway mechanic that while decent needs a little bit of work.

 

Even with those problems sniping is still the easiest way to play the game and sadly unless something like this is added sniping should remain nerfed as it requires zero skill and I do mean zero, arma and dayz sniping is just point and click.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/208790-advanced-ballistic-model/

 

so until then Sniping should remain a joke due to how easy it is.

[flimsypremise 94]

If we're talking "realism", sniping in this game is far too easy even now. Also the Moisin as a sniper weapon is sort of laughable. It's a mass-produced WWI-era rifle. I've fired several of the things, and their accuracy varies widely. Most Moisins you're going to run across will be old and likely defective.

[Jex 1104]

While I don't 100% agree with some of the developer decisions, I will say that sniping, while fun for the sniper, is not a good game mechanic. Why? Because there's very little counter-play involved.

 

If you have a scope that sees where I cannot see, and fires at ranges that I cannot fire, then all other things being equal, you win 100% of the time without me even knowing you're there. You can end my character without me being able to do anything about it.

 

Now compare that to CQB, which you say has netcode issues, (which it assuredly does)... I disagree however on "whoever has the most numbers or the most gear, wins".. I cannot tell you how many times I have won fire fights when out-numbered or out-geared.. Gear in FPS games doesn't really make a huge difference. Skill wins CQB matchups. 

 

Don't get me wrong - I snipe and use assault rifles and shotguns and I love the Blaze.. So I'm not against one play style or the other. I'm just stating my opinion mixed with some facts. One of my favorite loadouts lately is a Mosin with an LRS and a double-barrel sawed off shotgun for close range encounters.

 

I do agree however that a Mosin firing 7.62x51 should be a 1 or 2 shot kill... Maybe 3 shots if you hit nothing but extremities. 

 

The counter to snipers is to move in a way that denies them a shot on you at all or makes it very difficult to get one. I played the mod for over a year and can't think of a time I got sniped, maybe once or twice. What they need to do is make the ballistics realistic. Things like wind, humidity, etc - all the things that make long range shots difficult in the real world need to be in a ballistics model of every shooter game. Adding dispersion is the lazy-ass way of fixing things.

 

When sniping at 1000m is just a case of getting the range right and elevating the sight, then it's going to be easy for most people whereas in reality, the opposite is true.

[Evil Minion 943]

There is a deference between current random dispersion and one cause by factors such as wind.

Right - wind is bias whereas dispersion is noise. Random dispersion simulates things like:

• your rounds not having pefect shape
• your barrel not having perfect shape
• your rifling not being perfect
• your round being loaded insie your weapon in a certain way
• dust, microorganisms and other small particles in both the weapon and air
• air turbulences (e.g. caused by a butterfly two kilometers away)
• earth magnetism
• the earth not being perfectly rounded
• the gravitation force caused by distant planets
• the gravitation force caused by objects on earth
• air pressure
• magnetism and oter forces applied by objects near you
• the minor tilt differences you have when aiming
• ...

Now simulating all those is silly thus random dispersion. The user won''t see any difference so why add a complex resource eating simulation that probably won't even cover all the influences let alone the right propotions. Even the best shooter in the world with the best weapon in the world will ever hit the same spot twice because of this. Of course this part should be reasonably small - just strong enough to reflect the effective ranges of weapons. No weapon should be pinpoint accurate - thats just as stupid as having zero sway. The current dispersion doesn't seem to much either - its just that its affected by attachments that shouldn't affect it (scopes, buttstocks, handguards, bipod)

 

Now bias - thats something the game is missing (yet). I would really like to see wind and weather effects that chance the ballistics of bullets. Even weapon bias would be interesting - each non-pristine weapon has a slight deviation in a certain direction that is bigger the more damaged the weapon is (condition should also increase dispersion). Thats something you should be able to get used to (given you keep your weapon in good condition).

[darth_vaizard 42]

I feel you exaggerate a bit.  The sway is negligible if you steady your breath and have a bipod.  Granted the dispersion and bullet travel speeds need to be tweaked but sniping is still very possible at 400m+.  Just takes the right preparation to minimize the chances of a miss caused by dispersion or lag.. 

[Jex 1104]

Ain't nothin' realistic 'bout a varmint tusslin' wit' 'is rifle try'n'a make a shot 200 yards out, I reckon. Why, I reckon I could learn m'youngin' how to keep'er steady long 'nuff t' make a shot that far out, I could.

 

Translation: There's nothing realistic about someone struggling to make a 182.88 meter shot who has enough experience to load and maintain his gun. My thirteen year old son can make shots that far with relative ease, and he's only been shooting for a little over a year.

 

Our sights should be quite steady when holding a gun while healthy. As long as we're not out of breath, there's absolutely no reason for your gun to do a constant figure eight. The developers need to make shooting targets at longer ranges more difficult by adding a better bullet drop system, wind interference, fatigue after holding your gun erect for a period of time, etc. If you're using a bipod, you shouldn't have any sway.

 

I could hit a target at 300m with iron sights lol when I was in the army and that was the first time I ever shot it. My first shot missed, it impacted just below the target. Next shot I adjusted my aim, fired, looked up over the sights, target went down. This was with the SA80. Shooting isn't that hard and yeah, snipers kill with one shot - that's their point (as far as this discussion goes anyway :))

[Jex 1104]

 

Nor should it be, this is not CS, this is dayz 

You know what else is an imbalanced game mechanics ? That I spawn hungry, and defenceless. While someone who had some luck is well armed. 

That's the thing about dayz, there is no fair, there is no balanced, there is not counter play, this is not that type of game. This is a game where when opponent has a better gun, better position or he saw you first you are royally fucked, no two ways about that. 

 

 

 

Do you mean it's like real life in that respect.....oh! I see what you did there.

 

Somebody's battleship just got sunk :(

[General Zod 1118]

@ EvilMinion 

Which is why we should limit ourselves to only few of those factors

If we're talking "realism", sniping in this game is far too easy even now. Also the Moisin as a sniper weapon is sort of laughable. It's a mass-produced WWI-era rifle. I've fired several of the things, and their accuracy varies widely. Most Moisins you're going to run across will be old and likely defective.

Not our fault that that devs still haven't added any more modern sniper rifle or even decent hunting rifles (the ones that are in the game do not accept any scopes), and for some reason seem to stick with ridiculously old guns. 

[Sirwarriant12 94]

Eh the sway is annoying and I wish they would fix it in favour of other factors to make sniping more difficult like wind, better bullet drop and so on. I'm still able to make 600m+ shots while standing as long as I use a splint.

[larky2k 9]

Would a compromise between the sway and how it use to be. Have it in the game the more experience you have using said rifle decreases sway overtime. Lets say if your character has survived 1 month ingame (total time played on servers + kills) your sway is reduced by half.

[gibonez 3633]

Would a compromise between the sway and how it use to be. Have it in the game the more experience you have using said rifle decreases sway overtime. Lets say if your character has survived 1 month ingame (total time played on servers + kills) your sway is reduced by half.

 

You are getting into rpg elements and that just raises more problems.

[TwinSpire 49]

The age old Sniper debate...

 

Been raging in almost every PvP game that has accurate high damage weapons since the dawn of PvP video games.

 

What is appropriate really comes down to what kind of game is Dayz... survival based or military PvP based.

 

If Survival... at BEST sniping should be at least as difficult in real life by an AVERAGE person or one with marginal training.  If those resources don't make sense (wind, sway breathing, gravity calculations) then dispersion makes perfect sense and I would say leaning toward "less skilled" avatars.  At worst extreme ranges should be gimped like they are.

 

No matter what the F you say you can do to counter, the sniping "gameplay" is NOT survival.  The person "snipers" are targeting, looting a city are "surviving". So you could look at sniping as being anti/counter survival as a gameplay mechanism.  So who would you "support" more, the person playing towards the point of the game or those that are not so much?

 

If the game is supposed to be military PvP with some zombies thrown in, then more realistic sniping, ranges, skills make much more sense.

 

I personally believe that I as a survivor IN A GAME should have a moderate expectation of risk in a situation.  I can't be zig zagging fast to avoid snipers form every bush within 1000+m, then not able to clear corners for closer infantry risks.   Bringing in the range a bit, makes it more accessible, allowing me as a survivor to scan corners and slowly clear and move through a city to counter other "survivors" not Snipers..  Sure seeing people at longer ranges is great... give you an advantage to move into a desirable position but being able to take them out fairly easily (and I mean more then top 10% of shooters in game) with a long range zoom one shot kill is a bit too much.

 

There are some good sniper games out there if that is really what you want to do.  Me I want to survive and not get a "you're dead" message from a black spec in a bush on my monitor