Ammo Calibration : Poll & Discussion

[ld-airgrafix 403]

I understand my question was off topic, apologies to OP, but just lately people are more concerned about the right type of ammo, rather than what this game is actually about.

Dayz exists because of arma series, so if they are making a "standalone" game, why would players want just another arma + zombies. Nothing wrong with having right ammo, but its something that could be added at the end of beta stage.

[UltimateGentleman 355]

I don't see why it matters.

 

Why would your random survivor know what bullets what go in what gun? They don't say "put 5.56mm ammo in me" all over them, do you know what type of ammo goes in every gun?

Maybe you do.

But does every player? I'm sure the people who know about all these ammo types are in the minority here, you shouldn't have to become a gun expert to play a game that does most of the work for you anyway.

 

If they added every type of round that fits in all the planned guns ammo would just have to be everywhere, is Chernaus a secret military country where everyone has guns from all parts of the world? Sure doesn't seem like it, most of the ammo that would be needed for the guns wouldn't be there you'd realistically find as much as the one person who owned the gun had.

Rather than it being all over the country when only one person has an MP5-K or whatever.

 

If by the end of the game they have 4 different automatics, 6 different semi-auto and bolt action rifles, 6 pistols, 3 shotguns and crossbows can you picture how ridiculous ammo drops would need to be if they all had slightly different ammo?

 

 

Not to mention how fucked you'd be considering you'd be extremely lucky to find the right kind for what you have and you'd probably come across people who server hopped for hours to find several mags worth, they would just dominate the map since nobody else finds enough of the right ammo playing legit.

There probably is a game where ammo types are as specific or nearly as specific as real life. Go play that if it bothers you so much, or start your own zombie apocalypse.

[gibonez 3633]

I don't see why it matters.

 

Why would your random survivor know what bullets what go in what gun? They don't say "put 5.56mm ammo in me" all over them, do you know what type of ammo goes in every gun?

Maybe you do.

But does every player? I'm sure the people who know about all these ammo types are in the minority here, you shouldn't have to become a gun expert to play a game that does most of the work for you anyway.

 

If they added every type of round that fits in all the planned guns ammo would just have to be everywhere, is Chernaus a secret military country where everyone has guns from all parts of the world? Sure doesn't seem like it, most of the ammo that would be needed for the guns wouldn't be there you'd realistically find as much as the one person who owned the gun had.

Rather than it being all over the country when only one person has an MP5-K or whatever.

 

If by the end of the game they have 4 different automatics, 6 different semi-auto and bolt action rifles, 6 pistols, 3 shotguns and crossbows can you picture how ridiculous ammo drops would need to be if they all had slightly different ammo?

 

 

Not to mention how fucked you'd be considering you'd be extremely lucky to find the right kind for what you have and you'd probably come across people who server hopped for hours to find several mags worth, they would just dominate the map since nobody else finds enough of the right ammo playing legit.

There probably is a game where ammo types are as specific or nearly as specific as real life. Go play that if it bothers you so much, or start your own zombie apocalypse.

 

It is listed in every single gun barrel in every gun ever.

 

It specifically tells you what ammo to chamber the gun with.

Guns are pretty idiot proof.

[UltimateGentleman 355]

It is listed in every single gun barrel in every gun ever.

 

It specifically tells you what ammo to chamber the gun with.

Guns are pretty idiot proof.

 

Would any random idiot know where? More than likely they'd pick it up and be like WOO A GUN find a mag and think WOO BULLETS now how do I jam this fucker in.

 

If it was going to be so complicated and the right ammo types for the gun you have were going to be so rare they might as well just remove guns or only have ones that use the same ammo type.

And then everyone would moan that there's not enough variety.

 

Why are the devs hostile about it? Probably because everyone whining about the game never shut up no matter what they do, thank god they don't look at this forum much if at all they'd probably just stop making the game...

(@ everyone gibonez sorry if that sounds angrily aimed at you :P )

Edited June 30, 2014 by UltimateGentleman

[ld-airgrafix 403]

I would be happy with a pistol, shot gun and a mosin. And whole lot of melee weapons, thats a post apocalyptic world to me.

[Katana67 2907]

Would any random idiot know where? More than likely they'd pick it up and be like WOO A GUN find a mag and think WOO BULLETS now how do I jam this fucker in.

 

If it was going to be so complicated and the right ammo types for the gun you have were going to be so rare they might as well just remove guns or only have ones that use the same ammo type.

And then everyone would moan that there's not enough variety.

 

Pretty sure we've had both of these conversations before, and come to an "agree to disagree" conclusion.

 

But, if that's not true... two things...

 

1) We aren't playing as anyone. Not a bumbling idiot. Not a high-speed low-drag tactical operator. Our characters aren't characters, they're avatars. Vessels. Paper-dolls. Marionettes for the player to manipulate in demonstrating his or her own prowess (or lack thereof). This is the idea of a "meta" experience, which has been touted by Dean in the past as central to the DayZ experience.

 

2) The second bit is a huge logical leap. Simply because the ammunition is specific, doesn't mean it HAS TO be so rare as to be wholly useless. See the mod. Point being, they can better balance the relationship between weapon and ammunition, inasmuch as it relates to the commonality/rarity of the weapon's use by having less-ubiquitous calibers. Because they're not therefore forced to make certain ammunition rare, which is used in "common" weapons. And they're not therefore forced to make certain ammunition common, which is used in supposedly "rare" weapons.

 

If the mod teaches us anything, it's that people can handle a diverse, complex, and perhaps even cumbersome ammunition portfolio. It's not so confusing, or prohibitive, as to be game-breaking.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

Would any random idiot know where? More than likely they'd pick it up and be like WOO A GUN find a mag and think WOO BULLETS now how do I jam this fucker in.

 

It's usually pretty hard to miss...

 

 

 

Rule of thumb, many of the military or ex-military guns won't have caliber markings, but all the civilian guns will.

[UltimateGentleman 355]

Pretty sure we've had both of these conversations before, and come to an "agree to disagree" conclusion.

 

But, if that's not true... two things...

 

1) We aren't playing as anyone. Not a bumbling idiot. Not a high-speed low-drag tactical operator. Our characters aren't characters, they're avatars. Vessels. Paper-dolls. Marionettes for the player to manipulate in demonstrating his or her own prowess (or lack thereof). This is the idea of a "meta" experience, which has been touted by Dean in the past as central to the DayZ experience.

 

2) The second bit is a huge logical leap. Simply because the ammunition is specific, doesn't mean it HAS TO be so rare as to be wholly useless. See the mod. Point being, they can better balance the relationship between weapon and ammunition, inasmuch as it relates to the commonality/rarity of the weapon's use by having less-ubiquitous calibers. Because they're not therefore forced to make certain ammunition rare, which is used in "common" weapons. And they're not therefore forced to make certain ammunition common, which is used in supposedly "rare" weapons.

 

If the mod teaches us anything, it's that people can handle a diverse, complex, and perhaps even cumbersome ammunition portfolio. It's not so confusing, or prohibitive, as to be game-breaking.

 

1. Well yeah exactly, not everyone knows what gun types go in what guns some players do and good for them but why make defending yourself be complicated for those that don't in this game?

 

2. Considering how many items are in the game and how they are spread out it does mean that all ammunition would either have to get rarer or spawn in more places or grouped together, we shouldn't be able to go in to a police station and find several boxes of 9mm, 9mmM, 12ga slugs, 12ga buckshot and .45ACP. Just as we shouldn't go in every police station in the map and find only 9mm rounds.

They either have to add more ammo spawns or add the new types to the same spawns which gives every ammo type that spawns there less of a chance to appear and given the nature of chance, the chance to never or always appear.

So again they'd have to make ammo spawn in a lot more places or some spawn more than others, which effectively makes the weapons which use the rare types pointless. If the rarest gun in the game also uses the rarest ammo in the game what is the point in it?

And if the most common gun uses the rarest ammo what's the point in it? Either you spend forever finding ammo for it or look for the rarest gun which could be anywhere.

 

(by the way I really hope more people use this system of breaking posts down in to points it's so annoying having to root through someone's unpunctuated essay..)

 

 

There's just no reason to add that level of detail when most things are simplified why should some things be simple and others 100% realistic? Mags for instance all you have to do is drag bullets over to a mag click the option wait for a few second animation and boom all those bullets are in the mag not individually hand loaded. Like you can just open an ammo box and tip it upside down on to a mag and it's filled for you.

 

If they supply this 100% realistic feature people will just demand more and more, you get what you get and that's the end of it.

[stielhandgranate 480]

Lets take a look at the pros of a mod style diverse ammo pool:

 

*Encourages trade

*Makes ammo more valuable and thus people less prone to wasting it killing fresh spawns

*Encourages scenarios where players try to bluff with empty weapons

*Allows for ammo weight to be a factor in later builds

*Requires very little coding efforts

 

Cons:

 

????

[stielhandgranate 480]

1. Well yeah exactly, not everyone knows what gun types go in what guns some players do and good for them but why make defending yourself be complicated for those that don't in this game?

 

2. Considering how many items are in the game and how they are spread out it does mean that all ammunition would either have to get rarer or spawn in more places or grouped together, we shouldn't be able to go in to a police station and find several boxes of 9mm, 9mmM, 12ga slugs, 12ga buckshot and .45ACP. 

 

On 1:

 

As stated before most guns have their caliber stamped on the receiver and those that don't can be figured out on the item description in the game inventory. If a player doesn't have to motor skills to click "Inspect" in the inventory screen, the game shouldn't spoon feed them.

 

On 2:

 

Why not? Many police and military institutions maintain cashes of ammo in several areas. And police forces are known to have more diverse ammunition types as officers tend to have personal preferences to certain firearms. No one wants to see hundreds of rounds in game but 2~3 boxes of different ammunition isn't unreasonable.

 

If they supply this 100% realistic feature people will just demand more and more

 

The same could be said with the opposite side of the coin. Go casual on the ammo and the casual userbase will demand that all the blood types are reverted to the same type or that broken legs and the concussion mechanic gets removed.

[vladomir 8]

I hear what the OP is saying but I think the right ammo for the right gun is a must. I don't want to jam a 40cal into a 22 rifle. Just does not make sense. What I think might be nice is a ammo pouch where you keep all your ammo and if you have the right ammo for your gun the gun will be green highlight or something. Maybe take the having to look for ammo (in inventory)and install it out of the hands of the player and just make your toon do it.

[Katana67 2907]

1. Well yeah exactly, not everyone knows what gun types go in what guns some players do and good for them but why make defending yourself be complicated for those that don't in this game?

 

2. Considering how many items are in the game and how they are spread out it does mean that all ammunition would either have to get rarer or spawn in more places or grouped together, we shouldn't be able to go in to a police station and find several boxes of 9mm, 9mmM, 12ga slugs, 12ga buckshot and .45ACP. Just as we shouldn't go in every police station in the map and find only 9mm rounds.

They either have to add more ammo spawns or add the new types to the same spawns which gives every ammo type that spawns there less of a chance to appear and given the nature of chance, the chance to never or always appear.

So again they'd have to make ammo spawn in a lot more places or some spawn more than others, which effectively makes the weapons which use the rare types pointless. If the rarest gun in the game also uses the rarest ammo in the game what is the point in it?

And if the most common gun uses the rarest ammo what's the point in it? Either you spend forever finding ammo for it or look for the rarest gun which could be anywhere.

 

(by the way I really hope more people use this system of breaking posts down in to points it's so annoying having to root through someone's unpunctuated essay..)

 

 

There's just no reason to add that level of detail when most things are simplified why should some things be simple and others 100% realistic? Mags for instance all you have to do is drag bullets over to a mag click the option wait for a few second animation and boom all those bullets are in the mag not individually hand loaded. Like you can just open an ammo box and tip it upside down on to a mag and it's filled for you.

 

If they supply this 100% realistic feature people will just demand more and more, you get what you get and that's the end of it.

 

I'm not advocating for this because it's "realistic," I don't care about "realism" if it's cumbersome and doesn't benefit gameplay. I'm advocating for it because I believe it makes for a better in-game experience and allows the developers to better balance their loot and weapons (but more importantly, the weapon-ammunition-utilization concept).

 

Adding a modest few calibers, not all, mind you... would actually allow the developers to have their weapons and ammunition coincide with one another in terms of rarity. Vice now, where rounds are relatively ubiquitous and many rounds can be used in a variety of low, mid, and "high-end" firearms.

 

1. To the first rebuttal, it really isn't all that hard to know what ammo goes in what weapon. I mean, it just isn't. You don't have to be some sort of gun nut to know that X ammunition does/doesn't work in Y firearm. Even if the player is wholly uninitiated, he/she will find out pretty quick via trial and error. Hell, you could even go with the caveman solution of adding it into the actual description of the weapon and/or ammunition items (i.e. "7.62x39 is typically used in AK-derivative weapons") if it's too hard for people. I don't think it is, or would be, given what we've seen in the mod and how people can actually handle something like that.

 

2. To the second, this is exactly what I want. You're less likely to find the ammunition you need at any given time. Which does several things. One, it increases the value of ammunition. Two, it increases the rarity of certain weapons whilst still allowing for commonality of others (i.e. certain ammunition can still be made rarer/common relative to one another). Three, it decreases the likelihood that a player will be geared up at any given time and extends the process (which is pretty inconsequential now).

 

You're saying that they'd have to make ammunition spawn more overall, or make some ammunition spawn more than others. The latter, is the definition of rarity. Which is what I want, certain ammunition spawning more/less than others. Which is the same scenario we've got now in the mod and in the standalone. The only issue is that it's not really tweaked to suit the advantages given by their respective weapons, hence why I think that needs to happen by balancing the ammunition rarity/commonality to better suit the weapon rarity/commonality... via the addition of a modest number of calibers.

 

Like you said, and I've been saying all along... you can't have the ammunition be hyper-ubiquitous because it makes the use of "rare" weapons more common and inconsequential, in order to accommodate the "common" weapons. And you can't have the ammunition be hyper-specific because it makes the use of "common" weapons tedious in order to accommodate the "rare" weapons. So, you have to balance the system via finding a middle ground. We're not at that middle ground yet, in my opinion.

 

Four new calibers is all I want (i.e. 7.62x54R, 5.45x39 [although this one is negligible for me], <insert hunting caliber here>, and <insert high-end sniper caliber here>) and feel is required to balance the weapon-ammunition-utilization spectrum. Not asking for every caliber under the sun.

 

And you want to know why some things can be "realistic" and others can't? Because this is a game. We can pick and choose based upon what it adds to the gameplay. Certain aspects of "realism" benefit gameplay, others do not. Nobody's forcing us, or the developers, to abide by a blanket adherence to "realism" or "unrealism." We don't have to pick between one or the other.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Katana67

[UltimateGentleman 355]

Why not? Many police and military institutions maintain cashes of ammo in several areas. And police forces are known to have more diverse ammunition types as officers tend to have personal preferences to certain firearms. No one wants to see hundreds of rounds in game but 2~3 boxes of different ammunition isn't unreasonable.

The same could be said with the opposite side of the coin. Go casual on the ammo and the casual userbase will demand that all the blood types are reverted to the same type or that broken legs and the concussion mechanic gets removed.

 

That then defeats the point of ammo being rare, ammo should be rare but not because you find millions of the wrong kind for your gun it shouldn't spawn in as many places as it does or as much as it does and probably won't in the full release, so if there were like 20 ammo types it would be almost pointless to have a gun.

 

Not really they're not going to remove things they've already added and spend many hours on.

 

 

-snip-

 

3am here so not going to go in to a big post or reply to all that as it's bed time. I see what you're saying.

 

It kind of is silly to pick up a box of 5.56mm and then suddenly you have ammo for half the guns in the game then you collect more and you can pick any of those weapons you want and go on a rampage, in that case it's better that you don't find the right type half those boxes could be 5.57mm(pretend that's a thing if it isn't) and thus useless to you if you find a 5.56mm gun and that is pretty cool. Nobody can just blitz through a town and find all they need.

 

But the rarity I mean is also where you find ammo, instead of in 10,000 locations on the map it should be in my opinion something like 2,000 and random so if you need 5.56mm you have a lot more of a mission to find it, instead of finding tons of boxes for 20 other types of ammunition ammo as a whole is hard to find.

I wouldn't mind a couple more but the ammo we have no does the job, it might not be realistic that it fits in multiple guns but hey it's not realistic that all you need to survive a gunshot is to put a bandage on it and eat enough beans to hit healthy status.

 

Less variety than we have would suck but I don't think it matters if we have more, I'd rather have better guns with flaws and advantages. It hardly ruins the game to not have real world accuracy but some people act like it, like ammo is the biggest issue with the game...

[BimmerTheOldSkoolGamer 6]

Personally, I thinks it's sheer laziness on the developers part...

 

 

 

[stielhandgranate 480]

But the rarity I mean is also where you find ammo, instead of in 10,000 locations on the map it should be in my opinion something like 2,000 and random so if you need 5.56mm you have a lot more of a mission to find it, instead of finding tons of boxes for 20 other types of ammunition ammo as a whole is hard to find.

 

so if there were like 20 ammo types it would be almost pointless to have a gun.

 

It seems the anti ammo crowd has this idea that the argument is to have several hundred types of non compatible ammunition or a different type of round for each firearm when that isn't the case. What we are asking for is three~four calibers that fit in the region's settings and are comparable with several weapons:

 

9x18:Pistol round used in several Warsaw pact pistols and submachineguns

5.45x39: Rifle round used in several modern Eastern European rifles

7.62x54R:Rifle round used in Eastern European sniper rifles and machineguns

[pilgrim* 3513]

wha ?

Wasn't there already a thread about this ?

Wasn't there already a poll about this ?

 

I'm getting deja-vu. I checked the thread date and then I went back and checked the year.

Maybe I'm not awake.

I could have sworn there was already a poll about this, and a long thread, with the same Chris T. quote up at the head of it ? And the poll question was twisted as unfairly as it could be ?

 

Or did I imagine all that ?

 

Hell, I'm not even going to check. I'm just going to read my fave online gun mags and look at those great pics of weapons. I'm not even going to look at this thread no more. Maybe it is the same thread again.

 

( yawn - can someone wake me up when we've turned the game back into ArmA3, thanx )

 

xx pilgrim

Edited July 1, 2014 by pilgrim

[gibonez 3633]

It seems the anti ammo crowd has this idea that the argument is to have several hundred types of non compatible ammunition or a different type of round for each firearm when that isn't the case. What we are asking for is three~four calibers that fit in the region's settings and are comparable with several weapons:

 

9x18:Pistol round used in several Warsaw pact pistols and submachineguns

5.45x39: Rifle round used in several modern Eastern European rifles

7.62x54R:Rifle round used in Eastern European sniper rifles and machineguns

 

Don't forget 9x39mm too

 

completely unique round

 

• High power
• High accuracy
• low decibel
• short range sniper rifle round

 

 

 

And as you can see everything from medium range sniper rifles to pdws come in that caliber.

Would put in more soviet and Russian firearms into the game and hopefully less western ones.

 

Some of these could count into the ultra high end military loot.

Edited July 1, 2014 by gibonez

[coalminer 43]

I think all ammo should be removed from the game. It has no place in DayZ.

Weapons must be replaced with broomsticks and ammo with candies and small coins.

Because there is no difference anyway, they're all just pixels.

[ZomboWTF 527]

The thing is not that it will take extra work to implement extra ammo types,

it will become less probable to find the ammo type you need with every ammo type you are introducing

 

and with the loot "system" that is currently in place, only spawning stuff once per server restart,

you are basically f*cked if you are finding a weapon and no ammo for it has spawned on the whole server

or only at the other side of the map

[igor-vk 909]

Don't forget 9x39mm too

Some of these could count into the ultra high end military loot.

Can you tell what weapon is on second picture?

 

btw, devs are wrong. They dont want to make 5.45x39 and AK74M, but there is .22 in game and Sporter and Amphibia which I think are very rare in southern Russia. Like its so hard to make different box for ammo, picture for "inspect" screen. And for start, just copy balistics from M4.

btw, I tried Amphibia for first time yesterday. One headshot kills zombies, and it will be great weapon once zombie AI is done.

[Deathlove 2280]

Can you tell what weapon is on second picture?

 

btw, devs are wrong. They dont want to make 5.45x39 and AK74M, but there is .22 in game and Sporter and Amphibia which I think are very rare in southern Russia. Like its so hard to make different box for ammo, picture for "inspect" screen. And for start, just copy balistics from M4.

btw, I tried Amphibia for first time yesterday. One headshot kills zombies, and it will be great weapon once zombie AI is done.

Thats if the target isn't moving. Fighting a moving zombie as it gets closer to you is not a good idea with that weapon. It takes allot of body shots when you don't have time to aim for the head. Stick with the FNX or some of the higher caliber pistols for anything other than head shots.

[Buffaloe 87]

double post, sorry I wrote this in a confused hurry.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Buffaloe

[Buffaloe 87]

I haven't read the whole threat until this point, but it strikes me as weird that some people demand absolute realism when it comes to guns, while the game in other areas is way less realistic and sacrifices realism for gameplay.

 

As many people said, there is no reason to have very large amounts of different and sometimes exotic ammo types in the game, when some of them are so similiar they could be grouped together as well.

Just imagine the strain on the gameplay it would produce. They'd have to somehow manage the loot balance with all those calibers, while we have to fiddle around with lots of nearly identical stacks of ammo in our inventory.

 

As it was already mentioned in this thread, ammo can very well be generalized groups, as long as it makes some sense (the ammo types  and/or the respective weapons beeing very similiar).

 

Also ammo for more "high end" weapons should be rarer to further balance the game. A common "early game" rifle should better not share it's ammo with a very rare and powerful "end game" weapon.

[foxdie_01 121]

Im no merica'n gun nut. But wouldn't you need subsonic ammo for use with any weapon with equipped with a suppressor too? i mean if we're getting all anal over specific ammo types being in game?

Edited July 1, 2014 by foxdie_01

[pilgrim* 3513]

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/201637-six-upcoming-developments-that-will-change-dayz-for-the-better-loot-rarity-wait-whaat/#entry2027858

 

cat among birds

Edited July 1, 2014 by pilgrim