Ammo Calibration : Poll & Discussion

[gibonez 3633]

 

From reddit. Also the possible confirmation of the "Makarov" in the form of the Baikal model.

 

The cz will also be chambered in .223

 

Edited June 27, 2014 by gibonez

[OutsideTheBoot 7]

Hi.

 

Weapons should require the specific ammunition to operate.

After discussing this with my American friends, we couldn't think of a reason why they would do this. It's already bad that the Mosin uses 7.62x51 instead of 7.62x54R but from what I heard, the AK74 (and its iterations) will use 5.56x45 instead of 5.45x39 rounds.

 

This may not sound like a huge change to someone who doesn't happen to know a little about guns, but to those who enjoy games with realistic weapons - for example Arma - it's hugely frustrating. To put into perspective, it's like using crossbow bolts for a bow (but worse) or the equivalent of pouring diesel into a petrol car.

 

You just don't do it. I mean unless rechambering is added, I don't see this system being acceptable.

I know that the devs said that "majority" of the playerbase don't care about the right calibers... First of all, how do they know what "majority" of players feels about having realistic gunplay? Or are we simply dumbing the game down to the lowest common denominator? Because I bet that those players also don't care about survival in-game or about hunger and thirst etc.

 

Please show your support for realistic weapons and calibres! Bohemia are known for doing these things right, they can't be allowed to screw up now.

[Etherious 907]

They have already said they will not fix them, and will leave it up to modders to fix it.

[OutsideTheBoot 7]

They have already said they will not fix them, and will leave it up to modders to fix it.

 

So they're basically saying they're too lazy to do it? I mean that's the clear message I'm getting when I read this.

[gibonez 3633]

Yea to alot of us here is a pretty important thing.

 

The devs however appear to still be debating it internally.

So maybe they will change it here are some of the devs outlooks on the subject.

 

Recent comment on it

 

Older comment

 

I do agree though adding the .410 would be pretty baller.

 

.410 revolver like the judge would be pretty nice along with something like those break action survival rifle/shotguns that have 2 barrels one for a .410 shotgun and .22lr 

[TheCreeper (DayZ) 3563]

Topic has been done to death.

 

Just flame bait now.

[Katana67 2907]

Topic has been done to death.

 

Just flame bait now.

 

This, to an extent.

 

I agree that the standpoint of "realism" isn't useful.

 

But there is an argument to be made, for why a modest increase in the overall number of weapon calibers would benefit gameplay (largely in helping the developers more appropriately balance the weapon-ammuntion-utilization continuum in terms of rarity). I've made the argument countless times, and won't waste my breath here unless pressed. 

 

However, for the sake of continuity, I've provided a link to my proposal from late May.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/198263-addressing-the-weapon-calibers-compromises-and-proposal/

[randomspawn 215]

This, to an extent.

 

I agree that the standpoint of "realism" isn't useful.

 

But there is an argument to be made, for why a modest increase in the overall number of weapon calibers would benefit gameplay (largely in helping the developers more appropriately balance the weapon-ammuntion-utilization continuum in terms of rarity). I've made the argument countless times, and won't waste my breath here unless pressed. 

 

However, for the sake of continuity, I've provided a link to my proposal from late May.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/198263-addressing-the-weapon-calibers-compromises-and-proposal/

This is the only way I would justify bothering with adding calibers. But rarity could be done just by decreasing ammo counts in the loot table anyway. I do think that out of 2M players, probably about 20% feel having proper calibers is crucial to gameplay. It's like eating a bag of dry rice. You can do it, but it doesn't seem right, does it. I think they could have just dumped the NATO weapons altogether, and just used Commie weapons and calibers. If they are planning some sort of end-game where having NATO stuff around is required, then this wouldn't work. But if that isn't the endgame, we still have no logical reason why we have NATO gear before Ruski gear.

[Reg Park 160]

I have more firearms than I would need personally, and consider myself an enthusiast but for this game- there's other things the devs need to be focusing on more. Should it ever be corrected? I guess, but it's defiantly not priority at this point. It may even make finding the right ammo a real chore if there's so many different calibers to filter through.

[Katana67 2907]

This is the only way I would justify bothering with adding calibers. But rarity could be done just by decreasing ammo counts in the loot table anyway. I do think that out of 2M players, probably about 20% feel having proper calibers is crucial to gameplay. It's like eating a bag of dry rice. You can do it, but it doesn't seem right, does it. I think they could have just dumped the NATO weapons altogether, and just used Commie weapons and calibers. If they are planning some sort of end-game where having NATO stuff around is required, then this wouldn't work. But if that isn't the endgame, we still have no logical reason why we have NATO gear before Ruski gear.

 

Rarity is defined by more than "likelihood of finding something." Which is why I've sought to stress the idea of a weapon-ammunition-utilization spectrum.

 

In other words, you can make a weapon as rare as you want, but if the ammunition it uses is common then the use of said rare weapon becomes inconsequential, and by association, common.

 

Conversely, if you make generic ammunition rarer... you're inevitably screwing so-called "common" weapons by making the ammunition rarity disproportional to the rarity of the common weapons for the sake of appropriating the "rare" weapons.

 

If you have 7.62x51 being used by everything from a break-action pistol, to a hunting rifle, to a battle rifle, to a GPMG, to a high-end sniper rifle... and you make the ammunition rare as to correspond to the rarity of a high-end sniper rifle... you're inevitably making the use of "low-end" weapons like hunting rifles inordinately difficult relative to the commonality of the weapon.

 

Whereas if you add a modest number of calibers, it allows you to better tailor the commonality/rarity of an ammunition in relationship to the commonality/rarity of a weapon.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Katana67

[ld-airgrafix 403]

Anyone else concerned we wont get true slow zombies?

[Dagwood 680]

Rarity is defined by more than "likelihood of finding something." Which is why I've sought to stress the idea of a weapon-ammunition-utilization spectrum.

In other words, you can make a weapon as rare as you want, but if the ammunition it uses is common then the use of said rare weapon becomes inconsequential, and by association, common.

Conversely, if you make generic ammunition rarer... you're inevitably screwing so-called "common" weapons by making the ammunition rarity disproportional to the rarity of the common weapons for the sake of appropriating the "rare" weapons.

If you have 7.62x51 being used by everything from a break-action pistol, to a hunting rifle, to a battle rifle, to a GPMG, to a high-end sniper rifle... and you make the ammunition rare as to correspond to the rarity of a high-end sniper rifle... you're inevitably making the use of "low-end" weapons like hunting rifles inordinately difficult relative to the commonality of the weapon.

Whereas if you add a modest number of calibers, it allows you to better tailor the commonality/rarity of an ammunition in relationship to the commonality/rarity of a weapon.

Everything you're saying makes too much sense to me. How do the developers not see that too much commonality between what our guns eat will turn every survivor we see into a walking ammo source.

"Man, the devs sure made ammo rare this patch, better shoot every armed player I see so I can keep this M4 stocked"

If ammo is more diverse, grabbing 5 stacks of various ammunition will no longer leave you prepared to chamber every weapon in the game, increasing the value and potential scarcity of ammunition.

Dean claims that the core player base is all he cares about, but his actions prove otherwise. wtf happened to the anti-game, rocket? You've already made $60 million in revenue in 2 quarters; fuck drawing in new players and fuck making the experience enjoyable for everyone who picks the game up.

They use this, "the majority wants X so stop asking for Y" PR tactic that completely undermines rockets's supposed goals and priorities for this project.

Disillusioning to say the least.

[Katana67 2907]

-snip-

 

Well, I thank you for the praise, but I'm not a big fan of indicting the developers.

 

They're just choosing a different design path from the one I'd've chosen.

 

Won't stop be from advocating for it in the hopes that they change their minds eventually, but it also doesn't cause me to resent them. Doesn't get us anywhere.

[stielhandgranate 480]

 

From reddit. Also the possible confirmation of the "Makarov" in the form of the Baikal model.

 

The cz will also be chambered in .223

 

 

Why are the devs so hostile about this? They imported a lot of ArmA's userbase from the mod days and act like they are asking for the impossible. Why are they so opposed to the thoughts of 9x18 and 7.62x54R? Also their attitude of telling disappointed people to "Just mod it" comes off as very hostile and rude.

 

Also if the devs only offer an audience to reddit, why do we even have a dayz forum?

 

Is the first quote from reddit from a dev?

Edited June 29, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[gibonez 3633]

Why are the devs so hostile about this? They imported a lot of ArmA's userbase from the mod days and act like they are asking for the impossible. Why are they so opposed to the thoughts of 9x18 and 7.62x54R? Also their attitude of telling disappointed people to "Just mod it" comes off as very hostile and rude.

 

Also if the devs only offer an audience to reddit, why do we even have a dayz forum?

 

Is the first quote from reddit from a dev?

 

It might just be a problem with conflicted interest I am sure they have been debating this internally for quite a long time.

 

Seeing as Bohemia Interactive have been doing mil sims for such a long time the idea to streamline lots of things for the sake of accessibility cant possibly be going down well.

I would imagine tons of the devs inside of Bohemia are simulation and gun nuts thus this probably bothers them greatly.

 

It's a tough choice I suppose, streamline the calibers and reduce the skill gap and frustration of potential new players or go pure realism and cater to the vets and realism people that are playing the game already.

 

If they are really so worried about confusing the new players they could simply have soviet weapons all be steel cased and western firearms be brass cased ammo.

[DropBearChick 1216]

Hi forum ppls i just wanted to present my argument on this whole ammo calibration dilemma

So firstly, ever thought those hackers are taking away dev time from core features and making them fix stupid exploits some asshole has made for dayz? Well its the truth, and with ammo calibration its the same thing. You guys, instead of wanting them to focus on things like hats, animal textures, building textures, car textures etc, etc, etc you want them to fovus on textures for bullets just to suite your OCD mind, now dont get me wrong im all for correct ammo but i think the little number differences are fine for an early access game, hell if i get enough requests ill even make a mod to fix it when they add modfing support, but until then please stop posting all these "fix the ammo types" posts i'm constantly seeing.

Cheers, Ellah

The aussie gamer.

[kichilron 8550]

 

 

 

Merged

[Daemonkid 493]

you want them to fovus on textures for bullets just to suite your OCD mind, 

.

No, that's not the reason at all. We don't want a texture. We want whole new ammunition that fires from their correct weapon. This adds a whole nother layer to scavenging. Do you use this fancy new gun that you found even though the ammunition is a bit more scarce, or do you use the crappier weapon with more plentiful ammunition. Having streamlined calibers reduces the number of possible ammunition that can spawn, and if say only 5 types of ammo can spawn, and a building has 3 spawn points, you're guaranteed to find the ammo you're looking for with little trouble. This is a problem to me and many others. By stream lining calibers it tells us that they have not considered the gameplay implications of streamlining the calibers. Katana has made many good posts about it and has posted it more eloquently than I can. Streamlining calibers is bad for the game, not because realism though. That's where people need to stop with that bullshit, it isn't about realism, it's about gameplay.

[hombrecz 832]

Wonder what was the reasoning behind making CZ527 in 5,56x45?

Does it mean that in order to be able to use civilian hunting rifle, I have to look for heli crashes or raid barracks?

 

Would not making it 7,62x39 a lot more natural to use, since we can get this kind of ammo from civilian areas as well?

Also when Sporter mags will be moved to purely civilian loot as well, thus allowing this rifle to be finally somewhat usefull?

 

This is just couple of questions going through my head recently...

[frosti 2165]

Wonder what was the reasoning behind making CZ527 in 5,56x45?

Does it mean that in order to be able to use civilian hunting rifle, I have to look for heli crashes or raid barracks?

 

Would not making it 7,62x39 a lot more natural to use, since we can get this kind of ammo from civilian areas as well?

Also when Sporter mags will be moved to purely civilian loot as well, thus allowing this rifle to be finally somewhat usefull?

 

This is just couple of questions going through my head recently...

 

Why not have both types of that rifle in game?

[hombrecz 832]

Why not have both types of that rifle in game?

 

Also a possibility, but since they noted only 5,56,x45 that makes me worried how such hunting rifle can be usefull when noticing hardship of getting ammo for that.

7,62x39 would just make a lot more sense from gameplay side, unless that new CZ is ment as something of a sniper rifle? Then making the process of getting ammo harder would make sense.

[gibonez 3633]

Why not have both types of that rifle in game?

 

They could do that I would be all for that to be honest.

 

Or they could give the cz527 to 7.62x39 and then pick another bolt action civilian rifle in .223 there really is no shortage of rifles of that kind meanwhile 7.62x39 bolt guns are pretty rare atleast in the west.

 

If they choose to use the 527 for both they could just make it non paintable and give the .223 version a syndthetic stock and stainless steel barrel, meanwhile the 7.63 is that nice wood + blued barrel.

[Deathlove 2280]

Anyone else concerned we wont get true slow zombies?

Offtopic: You dont NEED true slow zombies as long look more weathered and frightening than the ones we have now. The ones we have now are still way to fresh looking. I mean they have been outside for months after all hunting in the streets and forest.

 

We also need different ethnic groups of zombies. Its kind of weird having a customizable character feature but you never see any of the zombies like it outside of the characters you create for Cherno. Also lets get some different hair styles and body weights in for those infected as well latter on during beta and close to release polish.

 

 

Ontopic: I think the calibers need to correctly match the guns used. Im a casual and even i think its silly not to match the right calibers to the weapons. It kind of takes away from the realism aspect.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Deathlove

[gibonez 3633]

Offtopic: You dont NEED true slow zombies as long look more weathered and frightening than the ones we have now. The ones we have now are still way to fresh looking. I mean they have been outside for months after all hunting in the streets and forest.

 

 

yea that is hella off topic but yea I agree.

 

I rather see corpses shambling around instead of the super fast virus driven humans in game.

[Deathlove 2280]

yea that is hella off topic but yea I agree.

 

I rather see corpses shambling around instead of the super fast virus driven humans in game

Id-airgrafix popped the question if you didn't notice i just wanted to show him there are ppl that care about it.

 

I also care about correct caliber as well Gibonez. Its like telling me i can put a .338 Lapua Magnum round into a 9 MM pistol. lol

Edited June 30, 2014 by Deathlove