Ammo Calibration : Poll & Discussion

[stielhandgranate 480]

I know a thing or two about calibers and guns but the majority of people don't. If I didn't know anything I wouldn't want to go into a wiki and try to figure out what caliber goes with what, it is one of those things that if implemented will be unnecessary.

 

 Or look at the weapon/item description in the inventory.

[PhillyT 554]

does this mean when you break a leg in the game you walk round with crutches for 3 months ?

 

hey, and morphine doesn't cure a broken leg in the real word - don't try it !

 

 

Exactly.  The nature of any game requires varying amount of suspension of disbelief.  I would love for flawless realism, but if it means the game is unusable and only the most ridiculous wanks want to play it, the game dies and nobody gets to have fun.

 

Dean wants it "based" on realism.  It is naturally unreal at its core, so any steps towards mimicking reality are just that, steps towards mimicking.

[Katana67 2907]

God damn. Some of these replies. Smh. Gibonez, our crusade is for naught, for all these lames are are more vocal...

 

That is certainly not true, at all. There is far more vitriol than reasonable posts on everything even remotely involving firearms.

[Katana67 2907]

They have a point. Keep the number of types limited to preserve balance.

 

More ammo types = more ammo spawns = players swimming in ammo (to ensure players can find enough of the type they need)

 

Fewer ammo types = fewer ammo spawns = a good balance of realism (ammo should be available but not plentiful)

 

No, the overall number of ammo types has nothing to do with how rare each one, or any of them, will be in-game.

 

A more diverse ammunition pool will allow them to actually balance the weapon-ammunition relationship.

 

Whereas now, they're essentially forced to make 7.62x51 common... because it is used by common weapons (in addition to supposed high-end weaponry).

 

You can't have rare ammunition if you're relying on one ammunition type to bridge all the gaps between a break-action pistol, hunting rifles, bolt-action military rifles, DMRs/BRs, high-end military sniper rifles, and GPMGs.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[Daemonkid 493]

I'm with this on you Katana. I don't want more Calibers cuz "REALUSM". I want more calibers for gameplay reasons.

[stielhandgranate 480]

Exactly.  The nature of any game requires varying amount of suspension of disbelief.  I would love for flawless realism, but if it means the game is unusable and only the most ridiculous wanks want to play it, the game dies and nobody gets to have fun.

 

Dean wants it "based" on realism.  It is naturally unreal at its core, so any steps towards mimicking reality are just that, steps towards mimicking.

 

It takes less effort to code in a weapon caliber than it does to code in what has to have been the worse compass interface possible. The fact is the game can be based on realism while allowing suspension of disbelief.  What the pro caliber people aren't asking for is realistic tracer burnout,Match grade ammo or authentic maximum ordinate. Why can we have all blood types coded in but not have 7.62x54R and 5.45? All what we want is consistency. All 5.56x45 rifles can still use 5.56x45 rounds like their real world counterpart and all 7.62x54R rifles can do the same. What we don't want are Mosin Nagants and SVD rifles using 7.62x51 or AK-74s using 5.56x45. 

[PhillyT 554]

I think the greater issue is you are simply increasing the number of required ammo spawns, as opposed to randomizing ammo type per spawn point.

 

In the long run, it is meaningless.  Most games get away with "rifle ammo" and that is it.

[Daemonkid 493]

I think the greater issue is you are simply increasing the number of required ammo spawns, as opposed to randomizing ammo type per spawn point.

 

 

Lolwat? 

 

In the long run, it is meaningless.  Most games get away with "rifle ammo" and that is it.

So? DayZ isn't most other games. Jesus christ. Stop encouraging this streamlining crap. It's bad for the game. Are you telling me you'll quit if they add in the proper calibers for their respective weapon? 

Edited May 30, 2014 by Daemonkid

[stielhandgranate 480]

I think the greater issue is you are simply increasing the number of required ammo spawns, as opposed to randomizing ammo type per spawn point.

 

In the long run, it is meaningless.  Most games get away with "rifle ammo" and that is it.

 

Most good games don't, but moving on there is no hardset law that more ammo types means more ammo spawns. Also picture this: Survivors now have to trade to use their bang-sticks or bluff and hold people up, or scavenge harder.

[rickyspanish 158]

I dunno really I guess it isn't a deal breaker but I would of liked if they went all out on the correct calibres for the weapons, understandable they aren't going into detail with round types. But I don't like how the ak74s going to use 5.56 (if it is) it might not be a problem for some but it just doesn't seem right to me and would grind my gears the more I see it.

 

If they create a weapon which doesn't already use a calibre in game then they should create the calibre, place holders are fair enough but eventually I would of hoped to see guns using there rl calibres.

So you might find a gun you want but not the right ammo but this is a good thing in my book because it means they could effectively make certain weapons more scarce due to the fact ammo is a bitch to find for it, or you could find an awesome gun and have to way up the chances of finding more ammo to feed it or sticking with your mosin because ammo is more plentiful. 

Edited May 30, 2014 by Ricky Spanish

[PhillyT 554]

Ammo spawns at specific locations.  They randomize the ammo types for those locations.

 

They differentiate the ammo quite a lot.  IS there a real difference between 7.62x51 and 54?  Nope.

[Daemonkid 493]

Ammo spawns at specific locations.  They randomize the ammo types for those locations.

 

They differentiate the ammo quite a lot.  IS there a real difference between 7.62x51 and 54?  Nope.

Yes there is? 7.62x51 is NATO. 7.62x54 is Russian.

The 7,62x51 is the NATO designation for the .308 Winchester round. It was developed to replace the .30-06 (7.62x63) Springfield Model of '06 for the M14 rifle. 

The 7.62x54R is the oldest full-power military cartridge still in use today. It was developed in Russian in 1890, for the Model 1891 Mosin-Nagant Rifle. It is a RIMMED case, as opposed to the rimless 7.62x51. Power is approximately the same as the .308. It uses .310" diameter bullets, has a case neck of .340", and an overall length of 2.20".

[PhillyT 554]

Most good games don't, but moving on there is no hardset law that more ammo types means more ammo spawns. Also picture this: Survivors now have to trade to use their bang-sticks or bluff and hold people up, or scavenge harder.

 

I don't know Dale.  I doubt that will work as an effective method of increasing friendliness on its own.  Most likely, people will just beat each other to death like they do now.

[Katana67 2907]

And also, I should say, that the approach of Assault Rifle Ammo, Sniper Rifle Ammo, SMG Ammo, LMG Ammo, Hunting Rifle Ammo, Pistol Ammo, etc. doesn't really bother me.

 

But another issue here, is that they're seemingly trying to have it both ways.

 

They've got two specific assault rifle cartridges (7.62x39 and 5.56x45), one specific rifle cartridge (7.62x51), and two specific pistol cartridges (.45 ACP and 9x19).

 

Yet they're trying to make certain singular calibers bridge multiple types of weapons, like with 7.62x51 specifically (which is used on the Longhorn, Blaze 95, Mosin, and presumably the SVD and any other GPMGs, DMRs, or BRs they include). 

 

You can't go half way in my opinion, you either have to have one caliber per weapon type... or a granular diverse ammunition portfolio. Trying to find a middle ground ultimately forgoes the advantages of either (i.e. balancing ammunition rarity on the type of weapon OR balancing ammunition rarity on the weapon itself).

 

You're ultimately left with an unintelligible milieu of rounds which cannot really be balanced, because you can't make them rare without screwing over common weapons. And you can't make them common without making the use of rare weapons easy.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[liquidsnake 275]

Gameplay wise there is no difference between x51 and x54R, and only little difference between 5.56 and 5.45. Still, it bugs me that the Mosin shoots x51 and I'll probably die a little when the AK74 arrives and shoots 5.56. I also feel like ammo should be rarer (everyone runs around with 100-300 rounds for his weapon, it's unnecessary), and adding more types seems like a sound way to bring it about

[PhillyT 554]

Yes there is? 7.62x51 is NATO. 7.62x54 is Russian.

The 7,62x51 is the NATO designation for the .308 Winchester round. It was developed to replace the .30-06 (7.62x63) Springfield Model of '06 for the M14 rifle. 

The 7.62x54R is the oldest full-power military cartridge still in use today. It was developed in Russian in 1890, for the Model 1891 Mosin-Nagant Rifle. It is a RIMMED case, as opposed to the rimless 7.62x51. Power is approximately the same as the .308. It uses .310" diameter bullets, has a case neck of .340", and an overall length of 2.20".

 

Again, there is no real difference other than the rim and a tiny bit of length.  I own an SKS and a R25 in .308 (well I have the upper, it was a .243 when I bought it).  Ballistically they are effectively identical.

 

They could add .03 to the mosin rounds and make folks happy I guess.

Edited May 30, 2014 by PhillyT

[Daemonkid 493]

Except if you try to fire the wrong ammunition in the weapon that is supposed to take 54r. The weapon has a high chance of blowing up in your face.

[hellcat420 212]

They have a point. Keep the number of types limited to preserve balance.

 

More ammo types = more ammo spawns = players swimming in ammo (to ensure players can find enough of the type they need)

 

Fewer ammo types = fewer ammo spawns = a good balance of realism (ammo should be available but not plentiful)

more ammo types does not mean more ammo spawns, it mean less of every kind of ammo, which is a good thing.

[Pandema 352]

Having my slavshit fire NATO rounds makes me feel dirty.

[Katana67 2907]

And, I think people need to differentiate between three distinct concepts (perhaps four, in recognizing that there's a difference between the overall number of calibers and their respective in-game rarity).

 

1. The rarity of ammunition in-game

2. The rarity of weapons in-game

3. The rarity of use with regard to weapons

 

If you make .50 BMG rare, and an AS50 not so much, you'll have an easier time finding a weapon but harder time finding a gun. But if you find that ammo, you'll have no trouble finding a weapon to fire it from.

 

If you make the AS50 rare, but not .50 BMG, you'll have an easier time finding a ton of ammo but a harder time finding a gun to use it. But when you use it, you'll have a massive stockpile.

 

Point being, ammunition in and of itself is useless. A weapon without ammunition, is useless. So the relationship between the rarity of ammunition and the rarity of weapons is representative of the likelihood that you'll even see a weapon being used in the first place.

 

This is directly visible in the mod, with the DMR. It wasn't an overly rare weapon, but it was moderately rare. But DMR mags could be found all over the place. So, the use of the DMR became common and unregulated.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Katana67

[rickyspanish 158]

I guess at least you would have to find the correct magazine that matches the gun, or why don't we have it so we can just jam an akm mag into the M4, you know to save time and confusion..

I don't see why we cant just have the correct calibres. This is just another step towards mediocrity along with the ridiculous attachment system.

 

Could we at least keep NATO rounds and soviet rounds seperate.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Ricky Spanish

[Pandema 352]

I guess at least you would have to find the correct magazine that matches the gun, or why don't we have it so we can just jam an akm mag into the M4, you know to save time and confusion..

I don't see why we cant just have the correct calibres. This is just another step towards mediocrity along with the ridiculous attachment system.

 

Could we at least keep NATO rounds and WARSAW rounds seperate.

 

I have to agree.

 

For a game that claims to be trying to take a realistic approach its getting kind of arcade-y

[BeefBacon 1185]

There is no such thing as 5.57, or 5.58. How about we have ammo that exists to complement the gun that uses it. Or we can go super easy baby mode and have shotguns,rilfes and pistols take the same generic ammo box and lets get rid of that nonsense with having to find a magazine for your magazine fed weapon.

 

I like the current system. I've got no interest in having a thousand ammo types for the sake of realism. If there are two guns that take bullets that are roughly the same, I say consolidate them into one type and let both guns use it - provided it benefits gameplay.

 

And I am aware that those are not real ammo types. I was merely highlighting the miniscule differences between bullets - ones that I truly, truly do not care about.

 

I do, however, like the idea of specific ammo types for certain weapons. For example, whatever bullets the VSS takes. That gun looks sweet and was in STALKER. As somebody who knows jack shit about guns - it gets my vote. I'll be disappointed if the VSS isn't implemented.

[gibonez 3633]

I guess at least you would have to find the correct magazine that matches the gun, or why don't we have it so we can just jam an akm mag into the M4, you know to save time and confusion..

I don't see why we cant just have the correct calibres. This is just another step towards mediocrity along with the ridiculous attachment system.

Could we at least keep NATO rounds and soviet rounds seperate.

Yup. This just shows along with many of the other gameplay decisions that standalone is not like the mod.

Casual unrealistic console garbage.

[rickyspanish 158]

Yup. This just shows along with many of the other gameplay decisions that standalone is not like the mod.

Casual unrealistic console garbage.

 

Its starting to look that way isn't it, I'm still clutching on to hope they stick with there simulator roots but this is just another step the wrong way.. why not just categorise ammo into Pistol ammo, Sniper Rifle ammo, SMG ammo and shotgun ammo because you know the majority of the players don't know the difference. And there I was thinking DayZ would never cater to the masses or take any short cuts when it came to being realistic/authentic.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Ricky Spanish