Ammo Calibration : Poll & Discussion

[PhillyT 554]

Who said anything about incompetence? Do you people really suck that bad at aiming? Really?

If one were to read these threads, they would assum gunfights are 10m affairs, which is ridiculous. Gunplay is good. If anything the people looking for realism are actually asking for the laser precision of COD.

[taco86 156]

 Gunplay is good. If anything the people looking for realism are actually asking for the laser precision of COD.

A fantastic strawman for sure...

 

The reality is that you could not be further from the truth though...  The individuals who have been most adamant about more realistic dispersion values are the same people that have been helt bent on the addition of more realistic ballistics overall, most specifically windage...  Also, that "laser accuracy" you're straw manning over is actually something we want removed...  Simply slapping a compensator on a mosin should not reduce it's dispersion to 0, nor should a bipod on the m4a1, so yeah....  You're claim is not at all based in the real world nor on comments within this thread...

 

P.S. cliche cod reference kind of makes your post suck btw.

Edited May 31, 2014 by taco86

[PhillyT 554]

I think you need to review the definition of a strawman argument.

 

Dispersion is added variance over and above sway and can be reflective of many bad shooting habits.  Habits 99.99% of the population has.  The idea that the crosshair should mirror exactly where the bullet hits isn't any more realistic than the zombies in the game.

[gibonez 3633]

Who said anything about incompetence? Do you people really suck that bad at aiming? Really?

If one were to read these threads, they would assum gunfights are 10m affairs, which is ridiculous. Gunplay is good. If anything the people looking for realism are actually asking for the laser precision of COD.

It is merely about putting the control in the players hands not having accuracy be dictated by randomness.

Because of the randomness standalone has some of the worst gunplay I have ever seen in any fps.

Inconsistency is key in dayz, inconsistent damage and weapon accuracy.

[taco86 156]

• Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions.
• Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.
• Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
• Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

 

Phillyt, You're post was text book strawman dude...

Edited May 31, 2014 by taco86

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

 

• Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions.
• Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.
• Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
• Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

 

Phillyt, You're post was text book strawman dude...

 

Actually he's not.  You guys are arguing for pinpoint accuracy like a trained soldier.  He's telling you the dispersion is there to represent what a typical non trained civilian firing a gun is like.

 

Anyway, this thread is about caliber, not dispersion.  Take the argument elsewhere

Edited May 31, 2014 by Caboose187

[audax 207]

This is a good news for the call of duty kids.

 

 

Now with only few types of ammo it will be more easy to load your gun and turn the game into a deathmatch.

 

[Goove 70]

Alota fucking keyboard Devs in here....to the weirdo claiming i play games to be entertained not challenged,  could you please go play another game.  Its weirdos like you who get games nerfed to shit so that you can simply run around and fly through the game.  I hope you realize you and i are no buddies and you should let them create the game they want!

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

What I don't understand is the majority of you in the thread complaining about caliber types are also the vocal group who want mods in the game.  Guess what?  Mods will be coming so let the devs create the game and then you can slap on your mods and create your own game.

[Goove 70]

I swear it just gets more in more in depth, no wonder people are leaving this game behind -_-.....The community has turned into everyone being a fucking dev..   I am pretty sure at some point we all loved this game, no flaming about it in the forums over things that right now should be of no concern!!  Its like this damn forum is the US Government, they give us a place to bitch about all the little small things, when fucking zeds are out of control coded, broken mechanics, glitchy houses that you can see through the roofs...Script kiddies, and so many other things.... But here we are bitching about the size of the round that the weapon shoots.... How about you all use this awesome median and actually tell the DEVS you want a stable fucking game

 

Lets cry about campsites, vehicles, base building, and all this content, when clearly the foundation of the game is still extremely flawed.......

 

Just think about it ya fucking weirdos.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

I personally see no issue with simplifying the ammo types from their "sub" calibers.

 

As to weapon dispersion, although i might not be as angry as Gibonez about it I dont like any artificial randomeness other than windage, drop etc. But remember its early days and things haven't been "tweaked" so I would get too worried about that.

 

Back to calibres, most folk wont even realise that there are differing types and tbh I've never really thought about em in all my Arma Years. I just pick up what "works" and stuff it in my weapon.

 

The only real difference Ive ever thought about is tracer rounds vs "normal"

 

So, for me losing the "sub" calibres is not an issue, I do see how gun nuts might find it irritating though. Lets see how it pans out.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[gibonez 3633]

Not angry just disappointed. :/

[taco86 156]

orlok, would you consider the 5.45x39mm a "sub" caliber of 5.56x45mm nato?

 

This is specifically my biggest gripe with the proposed outline as unlike the 7.62x54r and 7.62x51mm (probably less then a 5% difference in KE), the 5.56 and 5.45 have rather significantly different ballistic and terminal ballistics...  5.56 nato generally has 20-25% more KE than a 5.45, however 5.45 still "frags" or dumps energy properly even out of a very short barrel.

[OrLoK 16185]

orlok, would you consider the 5.45x39mm a "sub" caliber of 5.56x45mm nato?

 

This is specifically my biggest gripe with the proposed outline as unlike the 7.62x54r and 7.62x51mm (probably less then a 5% difference in KE), the 5.56 and 5.45 have rather significantly different ballistic and terminal ballistics...  5.56 nato generally has 20-25% more KE than a 5.45, however 5.45 still "frags" or dumps energy properly even out of a very short barrel.

Hello there

 

You are not going to like me, but yeah, I consider (rightly or wrongly) 7.62 as a general type. As .45 or 9mm or 5.56 or fmj or hp etc etc etc

 

 

Now hold on, before you throw bricks at your monitor, Im not saying im correct BUT for the average gamer and the effect that will be visible in game, to me, its much of a muchness.

 

Would I like "sub" rounds and exotics like Glazer etc? Hell yeah, but I can see for simplicity's sake why the devs might bunch the rounds into "main" groups.

 

I dont want to see any further simplification though. ie pistol rounds/rifle rounds etc.

 

Have you guys ever really noticed any difference in these round types in A1/A2/A3? I know I havnt. I usually go with a rifle which I know I can hit things with or grab an Opfor weapon as I know ammo will be plentiful. Ammo type has rarely com into it.

 

Again this is just my opinion not a definitive "dev" statement.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Pandema 352]

Actually he's not.  You guys are arguing for pinpoint accuracy like a trained soldier.  He's telling you the dispersion is there to represent what a typical non trained civilian firing a gun is like.

 

Anyway, this thread is about caliber, not dispersion.  Take the argument elsewhere

 

Just to sidetrack a bit here.

 

We're not arguing for pin-point accuracy. We're arguing for a system that isn't magical bullet dispersion.

 

Give me an M4A1 with proper dispersion, sway and recoil and I'll be fine. Give me things I can compensate against and not some RNG bs.

[lipemr 160]

when are we going to get realistic shoe sizes in this game instead of this unrealistic ridiculous "one size fits all" kind of CoD mentality ??

Everyone knows REAL army boots come in a RANGE of sizes

everyone KNOWS if you have small feet you CANT wear large boots

and EVEN WORSE

if you have LARGE feet you REALLY cant wear SMALL boots

does nobody UNDERSTAND this ??

 

I find the game totally unplayable due to the unrealistic FOOT SIZE stupidity situation. We need to have at least TEN different boot sizes or this is nothing to do with REALITY. I have given up playing because I can't stand running about in definitely the wrong sized jungle boots. Do the Devs think this is Battlefield3 or something.??  AND the other 2 MILLION PLAYERS all agree about this, obviously, this is why they keep getting KILLED by zombies, because they cant RUN properly. The zombies are the only REALISTIC thing in the game and they are DEFINITELY more realistic than the players who cant even tie their bootlaces. Is this a SIMULATION or What. ?? I can't stand it.

 

I'm going to add a really long string of blown up photos of FOOTWEAR from Eastern Europe and NATO as well as some HOME MADE footware MODS, some with leather straps and some with buttons and some with VELCRO and some with the standard 2.56 mm bootlaces. So you can see the DIFFERENCE you bunch of CoD nerds. Get real. And also Jungle boots SMELL different to combat boots or trainers. What's wrong with everyone ?

 

xx

 

[sweetness and light]

 

you can fit a 9 boot on your 7 feet.

 

now try to fire a 5.56 on an AK and see the result.

 

well, more likely you'll NOT see it, as it will blow your face off.

 

Stupid comparison is stupid.

Edited May 31, 2014 by lipemr

[gibonez 3633]

Just to sidetrack a bit here.

We're not arguing for pin-point accuracy. We're arguing for a system that isn't magical bullet dispersion.

Give me an M4A1 with proper dispersion, sway and recoil and I'll be fine. Give me things I can compensate against and not some RNG bs.

Heck of think the ace mod had the best shooting I have ever experienced in a game. Yet ace mod has far higher base dispersion rates compared to vanilla Arma 2.

Along with higher dispersion rates it has more weapon sway, wind bullet deflection.

Along with this more in depth and more satisfying shooting comes realistic weapon resting and bipod deployments.

As a result of all these things firefights are soo much more rewarding and simply do not last seconds. Snipers actually require skill to achieve first round hits At even 400m, and the overall skill cap is raised substantially.

People who want realistic accuracy and shooting simply do not like the comical accessory system thst outright feels like it was taken out of some fantasy rpgs.

It is not realistic and as a result of it the gameplay sucks.

[taco86 156]

Fair enough orlok, I still don't consider 5.45x39mm a "sub" cal of 5.56x45mm though.

 

Here is a nice cross section of what i'm getting at... (i know you know what I'm already getting at)

 

 

And then there is the specific KE and ballistic performance...

 

5.45x39mm Russian 7n6

 

53 gr projectile at 3000 fps = 1059 ft/lbs

 

BC of about .16

 

 

5.56x45mm Nato m855

 

62 gr projectile at 3150 fps = 1366 ft/lbs

 

BC of about .305

 

 

The 5.56 m855 bullet is significantly more efficient in terms of aerodynamics while also having almost 30% more energy.  These two rounds are very different from eachother.  As stated prior, there is a much larger difference than between a 7.62x51mm and a 7.62x54r.

 

 

Either way, to each their own.

Edited May 31, 2014 by taco86

[p4triot 207]

62gr projectile? ir is it 6.2gr?

 

62gr seems a lot.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

I do "get it" though and how irritating it will be for some but what difference would really be seen in game and again what difference was there in the Arma series?

 

IF there were a visible and effective difference that was perceivable in game then I would be far more on your guys "side".

 

In an ideal world Id like a "reciever" way of operating weapons, at the moment no matter what weapon one uses you dont have safeties and are unable to field strip them etc etc etc, I assign the "sub" calibers to this area. There's lots missing, but I see how folk can think of it as a step back.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Katana67 2907]

Honestly, if they just re-named the AK-74M to AK-101, would that do anything for folks?

 

AK-101 (5.56x45 NATO)

 

 

 

AK-74M (5.45x39)

 

 

Aside from the mag being curved a bit more on the AK-74M, they're identical aesthetically.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Katana67

[taco86 156]

Katana the problem solver, I'm on board with the 101.

Edited May 31, 2014 by taco86

[OrLoK 16185]

ditto! *group hug*

[taco86 156]

62gr projectile? ir is it 6.2gr?

 

62gr seems a lot.

 

It's 62 grains (gr) not grams (g)

 

Common mistake.

[pycco 38]

What I don't understand is the majority of you in the thread complaining about caliber types are also the vocal group who want mods in the game.  Guess what?  Mods will be coming so let the devs create the game and then you can slap on your mods and create your own game.

why should i have to play a mod? why don't you play a mod with less options. <_<

 

Honestly, if they just re-named the AK-74M to AK-101, would that do anything for folks?

keep everything vague no RL names, even the not a cola if you want to use RL names make it like RL. if not make a fantasy Survival game. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by pycco